The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 3:9
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

God Bless
SBC

What does this verse mean to you?
Can you offer a commentary and back that up with Scripture?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason read Job again, with fresh eyes. It is all about man being righteous. It ends with God alone being righteous.

Then explain Job 28:28.

Stuart and I talked about this earlier in the thread. How a man seeking his own righteousness leads him deeper into sin. You can actually watch Job do this, until God puts his foot down.

In Christ
Daniel

I do not know what Stuart says and nor do I really desire to know what he says.
It is why I put him on ignore.


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[stuart lawrence]

I have to be fair, you have to give Jason a bit if credit. He does admit he commits sin.
SBC states he cannot commit sin and ICL believes she doesn't commit sin for she is dead to sin in that respect and it is easy not to sin. So in that particular threesome, Jason is coming out on top when it comes to honest estimation of oneself. That ONLY applies to that threesome of course!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is also necessary.... you add to the Gospel Jason. Where is the faith in Christ and what He has truly done for you.

Dear Dan:

I have moved this past discussion of ours to this thread here.

Thank you.

And may God bless you.


Sincerely,

~ Jason.



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[stuart lawrence]

Jesus told the Pharisees they neglected the love of God( luke11:42)
Why?
Because they reeled off the letter and insisted it must be fully kept to attain eternal life. If it wasn't you were condemned. The love, mercy and compassion of God is being ignored. Perform perfect or be cast into the lake of fire. No love in that message. And of course those who preached it did not practice what they preached.
And people preach the same message today:
Only those who do not commit sin can be in a born again state.
In other words: perform perfect or God will throw you into the lake of fire.
The love if God is again being neglected. And as in Jesus day. The people who preach thus cannot practice what they preach.
Phariseeical teaching/ attitude is as alive today as it was 2000 years ago sadly

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I just noticed that there was "no mention" of sin in your last post to me...

I guess...? Is being sinless required for any of that you mentioned in your prior post to me? (I know it probably could "help" maybe), but, is it required...?

Does sin get in the way of that...? And, if you can't seem to do away with all sin, but do everything you mentioned in your prior post, is that a kind or type of perfect that the Bible is talking about...? that a sin, like say, smoking cigarettes, cannot or does not have to get in the way of being or achieving...?

God Bless!

Dear Neogaia:

I have moved our discussion here at CF.

Thank you.
And may God's love shine upon you.


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[SBC]

But your acting as if you know their future and it is without hope.
At least that is the impression I got.
I could be wrong of course.

You ask of a Possibility for Certain believers....
Then claim I act as if I know "THEIR" future.
Then claim I act as if I have decided "THEIR" future is "without" hope?

First of all Jason you posed a hypothetical; "a possibility" of "certain believers".

God provides "HOPE" and "POSSIBILITIES".
The hypothetical is per the individual to accept Gods HOPE or not.
The hypothetical is per the individual to believe Gods possibility of HOPE exists.

I don't claim to KNOW a hypothetical individuals future.

I do however KNOW, what God provides AND it is an individual who accepts or rejects what God provides.

Jason0047 said: ↑
Do you believe it is possible for certain believers to see the error of their ways?

David is an example of forgiveness. So yes. He is related to this point.

You quoted nothing of David, but rather spoke for him.
David is not the topic.
You speaking "for David" added nothing relevant to consider.

I was referencing the Bible.

I saw no reference to the Bible; only simply you speaking your words about clouds, and I responded to your words.

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots." (Jude 1:12).

And? What is Jude 1 telling you what are clouds without water?
Are they not those things among you, that are without the life that sustains them?

Jude 1 begins by speaking of to those WHO ARE "sanctified".

Jude 1 continues by speaking of those WHO ARE "not sanctified" and the relationship between the two.

It sounds like you are boasting.

Really?
Do you think it is boasting to disagree with an other? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to rely on Jesus' teaching? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to speak in exaltation of Jesus' teaching opposed to men's mindful opinions? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to respond to exactly what an other says? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to respond my own belief? I don't.

I hope that is not the case.
For a person's speaking of truth on a topic with God's Word should be able to stand all on it's own - IMO.
But you are free to do whatever you like.

So you believe in Calvinism?

I believe in the Word of God.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You ask of a Possibility for Certain believers....
Then claim I act as if I know "THEIR" future.
Then claim I act as if I have decided "THEIR" future is "without" hope?

First of all Jason you posed a hypothetical; "a possibility" of "certain believers".

God provides "HOPE" and "POSSIBILITIES".
The hypothetical is per the individual to accept Gods HOPE or not.
The hypothetical is per the individual to believe Gods possibility of HOPE exists.

I don't claim to KNOW a hypothetical individuals future.

I do however KNOW, what God provides AND it is an individual who accepts or rejects what God provides.

So you don't believe in Calvinism?

YouYou quoted nothing of David, but rather spoke for him.
David is not the topic.

You speaking "for David" added nothing relevant to consider.

I believed you were condemning certain individuals on this thread. It sounded like you were not giving them any hope by the certain words choices that you had used. Then again, it was just my impression on what you said and it may not have been what you actually believed.

I saw no reference to the Bible; only simply you speaking your words about clouds, and I responded to your words.

Because you are unfamilar with the passage.
Most Eternal Security proponents try to steer clear of reading Jude 1 like the plague.

And? What is Jude 1 telling you what are clouds without water?
Are they not those things among you, that are without the life that sustains them?

Jude 1 begins by speaking of to those WHO ARE "sanctified".

Jude 1 continues by speaking of those WHO ARE "not sanctified" and the relationship between the two.

They feed themselves without fear.
That is what it says in Jude about these clouds without water.
A cloud without water is sort of like a white washed tomb. It looks great on the outside but it offers no actual real substance of anything good on the inside. No true righteousness or goodess comes from them. They have only the appearance of righteousness but they do not truly act that way in secret.
They have no fear of God by departing from evil.
Job 28:28 says the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding.
Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Really?
Do you think it is boasting to disagree with an other? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to rely on Jesus' teaching? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to speak in exaltation of Jesus' teaching opposed to men's mindful opinions? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to respond to exactly what an other says? I don't.
Do you think it is boasting to respond my own belief? I don't.

I was referencing your specific words that said that you had the truth, etc.

I believe in the Word of God.

Nice dodge. But that is not really an answer to my question. Please answer yes or no.
Do you believe in Calvinism? Yes or no?

God Bless,
SBC

May God's love shine upon you.
And may you please be well.


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[SBC]

#1. Not all sin is the same (1 John 5:16-17).

Different sins were not the issue nor disputed.
Jesus was sinless.
Mankind is born in sin. The list of "kind" sins were not addressed. It is already established "mankind is born in sin".

#2. Are you saying that nobody should be able to out sin the grace of God?

Did I say that? No. So, no I did not say that!

#3. Are you saying, a believer can murder, rape, commit adultery and be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus?

Did I say that? No. So, no I did not say that!

#4. How does your belief here set you apart as being different from the rest of the world?

I Trust, Believe and submitted to God in faithfulness to God alone.
He forgave and cleansed my sins. He sanctified me. Those in the WORLD who have not done the same, have not received the same from God.

I am set apart from those in the World who have not done or received the same.

#5. How is your belief not a justification of evil instead of a justification of doing good?

I did not promote or justify evil. So, on what basis do you make such an inquisitive implication?

#6. If a person believes they can sin again in the future, would not God have to agree with their idea of sinning in order to save them? Meaning, can God agree with sin?

No.
The problem is with most men. Not God.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

To state: Irely on Jesus teaching
and say:

pauls message does not apply to me,

sums the problem up well.

Jesus told the disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could now bear, but when the Spirit of truth came, he would guide them into all truth( John ch16)

So according to Jesus own words, he was limited in what he could teach the disciples due to the Spirit not yet having been sent to them.
The Apostles of course had received the Spirit and they could preach the full message Christ could not, for their listeners had also received the Spirit. Two thirds of the instructional books concerning the outworking of the NC were written by Paul. If we accept the canon was divinely inspired, he was chosen to be the chief exponent of the NC to the world.
So to say:
I rely on Jesus teaching
And:
Pauls message does not apply to me.

Shows the fallibility in understanding of the person who states it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Different sins were not the issue nor disputed.
Jesus was sinless.
Mankind is born in sin. The list of "kind" sins were not addressed. It is already established "mankind is born in sin".

Dear SBC:

I have moved this reply here at CF instead.

Thank you;
And may you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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[stuart lawrence]

But it does not sound like you are in agreement with Paul, though.

1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?." (Romans 6:1-2).



But there are some who do believe that way, though.
The strange thing is that I cannot easily tell their gospel message apart from your gospel message at first glance. Only under listening to them some more am I able to tell.



But you are saying that we cannot stop sinning, so a person can do these horrible sins and still be saved on some level, right? What sins did you have in mind as being acceptable then?



This would be your past sins and not your future sins. For if your future sins were cleansed, then you can live however you like and not worry about losing your salvation.



This does not seem to be consistent in what the Bible says.

Here are some verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).



Because you said you cannot stop sinning yet no doubt you believe you are still saved (even when you do sin again).



So how do you detach your idea of thinking you can sin and still be saved from God's plan of salvation and His ways of thinking? God cannot agree with sin. Yet, your plan of salvation is saying that you can sin and still be saved.


...

Quote
If your future sins were cleansed you could live however you like and not worry about losing your salvation.

Unquote

I'm afraid the above is the logic of someone who does not understand the NC. That is the nice way to put it.

For no one, who had truly been born again, and in their heart loved God could possibly take such a view

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have moved my replly to this thread here.

Thank you, my friends.
And may God bless you all.


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[stuart lawrence]

The problem I have is that believers here are seeking to the do the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God. They are treating God's grace as a license to sin when God's grace is a means to overcome one's sin. Now, overcoming sin is only by the power of God. So all glory goes to Him for that.


...

As you are making the accusation that people here are seeking to use Gods grace as a licence to sin, perhaps you would like to quote some posts to back up your accusation.
Seems to me the people who excuse their sin are the ones who claim not to have any. And those who excuse their sins as: little sins

Possibly some are more humble than others and don't try and talk themselves up falsley

 

[stuart lawrence]

The problem I have is that believers here are seeking to the do the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God. They are treating God's grace as a license to sin when God's grace is a means to overcome one's sin. Now, overcoming sin is only by the power of God. So all glory goes to Him for that.


...

BTW
According to the gospel message of the person who wrote half the books of the NT, those who live under a law of righteousness sin far more than those who do not. I will go by him, not you

 

[SBC]

What does this verse mean to you?
Can you offer a commentary and back that up with Scripture?
...

This verse you are referencing is:

1 John 3:9
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Offer a commentary? No. Scripture is clear WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY it applies.

The WHO is applied to "whosoever"
The WHEN is applied to the whosoever WHO is "born of God"
The WHAT is applied to who, is born of God, "does not commit sin, can not sin"
The WHY is applied because "Gods Seed is forever, in the "whosoever", born of God.

Rom 6
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6
10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin...

Everything in Scripture that applies to a SINNER HOPING to become reconciled unto God always hinges on "IF" the SINNER does certain things. And you can clearly read in Scripture "IF" (whatever Scripture is saying).

"IF" the SINNER "accomplishes" what God requires for the SINNER to become reconciled unto God; "THEN" it is "accomplished" and "other things" "THEN" apply to that man.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This verse you are referencing is:

1 John 3:9
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Offer a commentary? No. Scripture is clear WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY it applies.

The WHO is applied to "whosoever"
The WHEN is applied to the whosoever WHO is "born of God"
The WHAT is applied to who, is born of God, "does not commit sin, can not sin"
The WHY is applied because "Gods Seed is forever, in the "whosoever", born of God.

Rom 6
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6
10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin...

Everything in Scripture that applies to a SINNER HOPING to become reconciled unto God always hinges on "IF" the SINNER does certain things. And you can clearly read in Scripture "IF" (whatever Scripture is saying).

"IF" the SINNER "accomplishes" what God requires for the SINNER to become reconciled unto God; "THEN" it is "accomplished" and "other things" "THEN" apply to that man.

God Bless,
SBC

I cannot reply to you on this properly until I hear back in where I can post my reply (if such a thing is possible).


...

 

[SBC]

stuart -To state: Irely on Jesus teaching
and say:

pauls message does not apply to me,

sums the problem up well.

Jesus told the disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could now bear, but when the Spirit of truth came, he would guide them into all truth( John ch16)

So according to Jesus own words, he was limited in what he could teach the disciples due to the Spirit not yet having been sent to them.
The Apostles of course had received the Spirit and they could preach the full message Christ could not, for their listeners had also received the Spirit. Two thirds of the instructional books concerning the outworking of the NC were written by Paul. If we accept the canon was divinely inspired, he was chosen to be the chief exponent of the NC to the world.
So to say:
I rely on Jesus teaching
And:
Pauls message does not apply to me.

Shows the fallibility in understanding of the person who states it

TO SPEAK for OTHERS out of context is falsely testifying.
Paul has books and chapters and verses full of messages.

If you do not comprehend a PARTICULAR message of Paul's was the topic. Then stay out of the conversation.

I have never said or implied ALL of Paul's teaching does not apply to me.
But yet that IS what you are implying, which is false.

If you do not comprehend what is ACCOMPLISHED, does not require repeating....that's on you. Not me!

If you want to argue against Scriptures that's on you. Not me!

You want to claim you are forgiven, saved, born again; but it was not sufficient; and you STILL SIN, and require MORE FORGIVING; that's on you. Not me.

Me claiming I rely on Jesus teaching, is on me. And it is of no consequence to me if you like it or not.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

So you don't believe in Calvinism?



I believed you were condemning certain individuals on this thread. It sounded like you were not giving them any hope by the certain words choices that you had used. Then again, it was just my impression on what you said and it may not have been what you actually believed.



Because you are unfamilar with the passage.
Most Eternal Security proponents try to steer clear of reading Jude 1 like the plague.



They feed themselves without fear.
That is what it says in Jude about these clouds without water.
A cloud without water is sort of like a white washed tomb. It looks great on the outside but it offers no actual real substance of anything good on the inside. No true righteousness or goodess comes from them. They have only the appearance of righteousness but they do not truly act that way in secret.
They have no fear of God by departing from evil.
Job 28:28 says the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding.
Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.



I was referencing your specific words that said that you had the truth, etc.



Nice dodge. But that is not really an answer to my question. Please answer yes or no.
Do you believe in Calvinism? Yes or no?



May God's love shine upon you.
And may you please be well.


....

Matt15:14

 

[he-man]

Their conclusion is that they are like God, and our conclusion is that we are not, and have come to know we are not, maybe by the same kind of sin that they are committing, or at least, for me, I do not claim to know if that is how you came to know that error, @stuart lawrence...

Do not succumb to committing the same sin as the Devil, or stay in it till you die, or you will have to stand with the Devil on judgment day...

God Bless!

Mt 13:28 says the world not the devil, and that a man did this, sowing bad seed among the good churches.