The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[SBC]

My point is stop acting like a hot head and if you cannot converse then maybe leave the thread because your acting ridiculous.

My point was pretty clear. The irony...
You made accusations while complaining of others making accusations.
And now you resort to name calling!

Actually, I think we can stop talking all together.

Okie dokie!

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

My point is stop acting like a hot head and if you cannot converse then maybe leave the thread because your acting ridiculous.

Actually, I think we can stop talking all together. See you later and may God bless you.

I really like to talk about scripture, but this thread has taken a nose dive.

I've got him on ignore. Anyone who states they don't seek to be justified in Christ and Pauls message doesnt apply to them is never going to be able to discern spiritual truth. It's just long posts, reeling off much of the letter without understanding the message contained in the letter they are quoting.
Plus he gets over animated, to put it mildly and keeps claiming he hasn't stated what everyone believes he has stated.
Nothing to be gained by reading the posts in my view

 

[SBC]

stuart - I've got him on ignore. Anyone who states they don't seek to be justified in Christ and Pauls message doesnt apply to them.

Anyone who claims they have the Holy Spirit AND are still seeking to be justified....AND are still sinning.... Are without spiritual understanding...and preach against what Scripture says.

Sin does not DWELL IN CHRIST!

A man WITH the Holy Spirit, DWELLS IN CHRIST!

Cor.5

1. 
   
   
   • [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Cor.1

1. 
   
   
   • [21] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've got him on ignore. Anyone who states they don't seek to be justified in Christ and Pauls message doesnt apply to them is never going to be able to discern spiritual truth. It's just long posts, reeling off much of the letter without understanding the message contained in the letter they are quoting.
Plus he gets over animated, to put it mildly and keeps claiming he hasn't stated what everyone believes he has stated.
Nothing to be gained by reading the posts in my view

I'm going to do that too. He is now doing CAPS, bold and red text to get attention.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't really google roadkill. LOL

I was in bed thinking about what you believe, and I think my problem is I know what you believe about law, but not about sin. Maybe that clue will come out in one of your posts to Dan or the lionhead guy.

I will respond to this, but I don't see any point in debating for the reasons already given, so just think of it as a statement.
The core of the new covenant states the law is written on your mind and placed in your heart, and your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
Only those who actually believe it understand the truth.
So the Christian knows the sin problem got taken care of, in respect of Christ dying for their sins/ transgressions of the law.
Because that is so, the power of sin has been removed from their life( 1cor15:56)
There is now no condemnation for the believer.
The Christian is a work in progress their whole life. They are BEING made Holy( heb10:14) if you are BEING made Holy you are not perfect in your flesh, so you will sin in your flesh, but as long as you are following this work in progress and growing to live an evermore holy life, you have peace, and freedom for in your heart you know Christ died for your imperfections.
The problem comes when the Christian steps outside of this work in progress.
This would require a Christian committing sin they are not seeking freedom from slavery of through faith in Christ.
IE
They meet someone and sleep with them, they give into the flesh. What happens then, they have stepped outside of the work in progress? Their conscience is going to be seered, because they have gone against what is in their heart. They will have no rest, and no peace until the come before their Father in heaven and seek his forgiveness for what they have done. Then they get their peace back. What if they sleep with the person again and again? Well we are speaking here of people who understand the truth of the message ONLY.
And I have to say, this is not a scenario I have come accross. I know plenty of people who have attended church and had sexual partners outside of marriage, but none of them understood the truth of the gospel message. They did not believe their sins and lawless deeds would be remembered no more. So they still lived under the true power of sin. That's the big problem.
Is it possible for someone who actually does understand the true message to become so hardened by continual wilfull sin they no longer repent?
You decide! But the whole point of knowing your sin problem was taken care of is, it removes sins power from your life.
The little grey cells will never understand/ be able to work out the true spiritual message will they.

 

[stuart lawrence]

As a very knowledgeable Jewish Christian wrote:
The Quran can be read and you take the literal meaning of every verse you read in it. The Bible was not written to be understood that way.

He is right!
When you try to understand the biblical message by just plucking out certain scriptures and hinging everything on the literal letter of them you bring scripture into contradiction with scripture
IE.
James writes a person is justified by works as well as faith. Paul states you are justified apart from works

Paul states you are dead to sin
Paul states you are BEING made Holy.
If you were dead to sin in respect of never committing sin you wouldn't be BEING made Holy you would already be perfectly Holy.
And we could go on and on.
That is why it is folly I am afraid to write long posts and simply reel off much of the partial letter. You will never unearth the true spiritual message of the Bible that way. I repeat, you just bring scripture into opposition of other scripture. Which I guess is how debate thrives on these websites.
And unfortunately one particular denomination that comes to mind, are more guilty than most others I have accross of just grabbing the literal letter of certain scriptures and hinging everything on it.
It's called fundamentalism. I used to be part if it at one time so I understand how it works

 

[SBC]

[QUOTE - stuart - The Christian is a work in progress their whole life. They are BEING made Holy( heb10:14)


Heb 10:14 says nothing about the sanctified being a work in progress to be perfected!


Heb 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Eph.1

1. [7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1Cor.6

1. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph.2

1. [1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1John.3

1. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Heb.4
[12] For the word of God is quick,



Teaching the Lords work is slow to act IS FALSE teaching in contrast to the Word of God.

Teaching that a man HAS the Holy Spirit; is not forgiven, is not saved, is not quickened, is not sanctified, is not justified, is not perfected, is not born of God, is capable of sinning, IS FALSE teaching in contrast to the Word of God.

 

[SBC]

How it works is Trusting the Word of God.
Then seek God for His Understanding of Scriptures.

If that's fundamentalism - I'll take that any day over men who teach in contrast to the Word of God!

Implying Christ's forgiveness is insufficient; and His power within a man is insufficient; because a man still sins! pfft Is not what scripture teaches.

 

[SBC]

the literal letter of certain scriptures

Not sufficient, Because? Trusting the Word of God is not sufficient?

 

[SBC]

I'm going to do that too. He is now doing CAPS, bold and red text to get attention.

funny

 

[1stcenturylady]

I will respond to this, but I don't see any point in debating for the reasons already given, so just think of it as a statement.
The core of the new covenant states the law is written on your mind and placed in your heart, and your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
Only those who actually believe it understand the truth.
So the Christian knows the sin problem got taken care of, in respect of Christ dying for their sins/ transgressions of the law.
Because that is so, the power of sin has been removed from their life( 1cor15:56)
There is now no condemnation for the believer.
The Christian is a work in progress their whole life. They are BEING made Holy( heb10:14) if you are BEING made Holy you are not perfect in your flesh, so you will sin in your flesh, but as long as you are following this work in progress and growing to live an evermore holy life, you have peace, and freedom for in your heart you know Christ died for your imperfections.
The problem comes when the Christian steps outside of this work in progress.
This would require a Christian committing sin they are not seeking freedom from slavery of through faith in Christ.
IE
They meet someone and sleep with them, they give into the flesh. What happens then, they have stepped outside of the work in progress? Their conscience is going to be seered, because they have gone against what is in their heart. They will have no rest, and no peace until the come before their Father in heaven and seek his forgiveness for what they have done. Then they get their peace back. What if they sleep with the person again and again? Well we are speaking here of people who understand the truth of the message ONLY.
And I have to say, this is not a scenario I have come accross. I know plenty of people who have attended church and had sexual partners outside of marriage, but none of them understood the truth of the gospel message. They did not believe their sins and lawless deeds would be remembered no more. So they still lived under the true power of sin. That's the big problem.
Is it possible for someone who actually does understand the true message to become so hardened by continual wilfull sin they no longer repent?
You decide! But the whole point of knowing your sin problem was taken care of is, it removes sins power from your life.
The little grey cells will never understand/ be able to work out the true spiritual message will they.

Sexual sins are the most attractive to anyone. I think that is why so much time and space was devoted to them in scripture.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sexual sins are the most attractive to anyone. I think that is why so much time and space was devoted to them in scripture.

As a child, I used to read my Bible during the sermon( they bored me I'm afraid) and I used to wonder why: Thou shalt not covet, was one of the TC. I could understand the other nine being there, but not the tenth. I figured God just wanted to round the number up to ten, so tagged that one along at the end. A commandment I considered of far less importance than the others. But in those days I thought coveting only referred to material goods, such as coveting your neighbours car or house for example. Now I know better. Because King David coveted he quickly broke two more of the TC one after the other. And Paul gave that commandment as the example of why he had to die to the law. It is huge isn't it, and as you allude to, the most exciting to break. and the hardest to Keep I would say, along with the first

 

[1stcenturylady]

As a child, I used to read my Bible during the sermon( they bored me I'm afraid) and I used to wonder why: Thou shalt not covet, was one of the TC. I could understand the other nine being there, but not the tenth. I figured God just wanted to round the number up to ten, so tagged that one along at the end. A commandment I considered of far less importance than the others. But in those days I thought coveting only referred to material goods, such as coveting your neighbours car or house for example. Now I know better. Because King David coveted he quickly broke two more of the TC one after the other. And Paul gave that commandment as the example of why he had to die to the law. It is huge isn't it, and as you allude to, the most exciting to break. and the hardest to Keep I would say, along with the first

Coveting is why my husband left me for the wife of his best friend. His friend was everything he had ever wanted to be. They both had been in the Navy, but his friend had been a Navy Seal and even did still-secret missions. I think wanting his life was his downfall, and it all started with coveting.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Coveting is why my husband left me for the wife of his best friend. His friend was everything he had ever wanted to be. They both had been in the Navy, but his friend had been a Navy Seal and even did still-secret missions. I think wanting his life was his downfall, and it all started with coveting.

Yes, coveting wrecks lives doesn't it, has started wars, destroyed families and so much more. And coveting is a commandnent you can break without anyone but God knowing you are doing so.
The Pharisees could faultlessly obey so much of the letter of the law, they could faultlessly observe the legalistic law, but they could not obey the tenth commandment, as Saul the pharisee could not either

 

[stuart lawrence]

I would say it is one of the main reasons Paul stated: The letter kills.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Coveting is why my husband left me for the wife of his best friend. His friend was everything he had ever wanted to be. They both had been in the Navy, but his friend had been a Navy Seal and even did still-secret missions. I think wanting his life was his downfall, and it all started with coveting.

It's interesting. We've talked about the law placed within us. When I reached puberty, I still believed the written commandment not to covet only referred to material goods, but in my mind I instinctively knew impure thoughts were sin. So the true meaning and depth to that commandment, was written in my mind and placed on my heart

 

[Dirk1540]

While I am not a big Dan Corner fan, he does make a great eye opening point here in regards to this "Double Message within Eternal Security."

To see what I am talking about, here is a video debate between Dan Corner and Mark Driscoll.

Mark Driscoll Mars Hill Church Dan Corner Debate


...

#1, there's nothing I like more than when people totally focus on THE ARGUMENT over the man!! Even a person who is wrong 90% of the time is right 10% of the time. Sometimes I'll read Youtube posts of disagreement, and I can literally see FIFTY comments in a row where there 'Argument' is not an argument, rather calling the person a name, or an appeal to authority UGH, drives me crazy. 'Everyone knows' 'Scientists Say' 'Experts Agree'...makes me wanna pull my hair out. Always refreshing to read "I'm not a fan of (...) but here he makes this good point..."

#2, nothing better than something presented in debate format!!! No straw men! Watch 2 well informed opinions collide! Great post!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Coveting is why my husband left me for the wife of his best friend. His friend was everything he had ever wanted to be. They both had been in the Navy, but his friend had been a Navy Seal and even did still-secret missions. I think wanting his life was his downfall, and it all started with coveting.

If you have righteousness apart from observing the law, is this a licence to sin?
I should write this to Jason, but he claims not to read my posts. We both know he's fibbing don't we, probably one of those sins he refers to as : little sins!

I think you agree, the core foundation upon which the NC stands is twofold. One without the other equals no new covenant. Note the order. The law is written in your mind and placed on your heart. THEN HE ADDS. Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more. In other words, you only get a saviour from your sin, because the law is placed within you.
You see, no Christian, even with the Holy Spirit will perfectly obey the law within them, and that is the only way you can be justified under the law. The Christian is called to understand that, the law leads them to look to Christ and trust he is their rightstanding/ righteousness before God.
Now for the question. When the Christian does this, can they then believe they have a licence to sin for Christ is their righteousness, not observing the law?
The answer is a big no! Why? Because the law aint going anywhere, it remains in your mind and on your heart the whole of your Christian life. You have been born again, and simply put, with the law in your heart, you desire to live as God wants you to in your heart. And that fact cannot and does not change by you knowing Christ is your righteousness before God.
Now what happens if you go against what is in your heart? Think about it. Your conscience will be seered, it is inevitable. You know that and I know that. If you love someone it is in your heart to want to please them. And when you slip up, because we don't always act perfectly to those we love we immediatley regret it afterwards, for we are going against how we in our heart want to act. And Christians do slip up. For their flesh did not get born again, their heart and mind did. Hence the eternal struggle of Spirit against flesh.
God is not stupid. He did not make a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by them not being under a righteousness of observing the law. He cut out the licence to sin by supernaturally changing the individual into someone who in their heart wants to obey God.
Why do many not understand this? Why do they continually state righteousness apart from observing the law is a licence to sin?
Well If some can only quote the letter, but fail to understand the truth contained in the letter( through the spirit of truth who lives in them) they obviously will not understand the truth will they. Hence the false statements
How many ministers do you know who spend their entire sermon reeling off the literal letter only?
They have to explain scripture. Not just woodenly quote it

 

[SBC]

Coveting.

A couple of questions to you;

I have heard the term; "license to sin" and "get out of hell card".
I have never heard anyone claim those things for themselves - but have heard others make those claims to professing Christians.

The basis being; "license to sin", premised on a Christian claiming they are "saved and born again"; but claim they continue to sin.

The basis being; "get out of hell card", premised on a Christian claiming they are "saved", thus regardless of what they do, they have no threat of being sent to hell.

Question: Do you believe a saved and born again man, is freed from sin, sins no more, OR continues to sin AFTER being saved and born again?

Question: Do you believe a saved (soul) of man, is also a born again (spirit) of man?

Question: Do you believe a saved man, is kept from separation from God in hell, regardless of what he does?

Thanks. Elaboration welcome. No post is too long to express your POV.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sexual sins are the most attractive to anyone. I think that is why so much time and space was devoted to them in scripture.

Adding a little to this, I think sexual sins are also sins of the mind and heart and not necessarily sins of action as we would think most sins to be.

Most of the time we need to 'act' on something for it to be a sin, but with adultery as laid out in the Bible can be in one's heart and mind. This then adds a whole other dimension to sin because now we realize that our hearts must be right and our minds must be disciplined.

For instance, now I always check for nudity in movies before I watch them. And even PG13 movies can have this or highly suggestive situations. And so one must definately take more care in what they allow into their minds and lives.

Good point.