The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[stuart lawrence]

I won't write this to them, because they refuse to listen.
Sin is the transgression of the law 1john3:4
Therefore if you observe the law you do not commit sin. If you fail to observe the law you do commit sin.
Paul states( and he goes on stating it)

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom 3:20

So the Christian is not declared righteous by striving not to commit sin.
People then say you preach a licence to sin. So why did Paul relentlessly state it?
Paul is writing to people who have made Christ Lord and Saviour of their life. They have been born again of the Holy Spirit. The law is in their hearts and in their hearts they want nothing more than to obey it.
Under such circumstances, such people have no need of a righteousness of striving not to commit sin. They don't want the sin, they want to follow after Christ. Such people could never use such grace as a licence to sin. The idea THESE people who want nothing more than to serve Christ would then seek a licence to sin, is, frankly potty.
So why does Paul insist they who love God and so much want to obey him must die to a law if righteousness/ no righteousness of striving to defeat sin?
Because, the power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56

If the Christian who in their heart wants nothing more than to obey Christ, every time they are imperfect believe they are threatened with hell unless they quickly repent, they live under the power of sin, they cannot grow as God wants them to grow. Neither can they love God as He wants them to love him.
The Christian who knows their sin cannot condemn them and loves God with all their heart can't thank God enough for removing their feelings of condemnation. For they know they are not perfect in the flesh. Such gratitude brings them to love God more than they ever thought possible( greatest commandment obeyed) and I repeat, such people cannot/ would not view such grace as a licence to sin.
In fact, they will see sin far more dramatically and quickly overcome in their lives for they are living in the pure truth of the gospel message. And the power is in the truth being followed. And the power of sin has been removed from their lives.
However, those who don't want to surrender their lives to Christ cannot understand it and accept grace. Grace is not for them. The proud of heart will also resist such grace.

Jason
Please read the above. And then please, stop dragging up anyone you can find as yet another desperate attempt to deny Pauls gospel message

 

[1stcenturylady]

Speaking of the baptism of the holy spirit.
I remember in my youth, after the service, sitting on a wall outside the evangelical church we went to, smoking a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the stalwarts in the church made me believe I would be cast into hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections.
A few years later, Jean Darnell confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Yet at that time I still smoked!

I learnt a valuable lesson that day. God does not lay the demands on you that some of his children do

That is true.

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason
Please read the above. And then please, stop dragging up anyone you can find as yet another desperate attempt to deny Pauls gospel message

Your interpretation is wrong. Scripture says,

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:12).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your interpretation is wrong. Scripture says,

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:12).


...

Read on my friend to Pauls conclusion as to what he has previously written, including ch2!

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and gentiles alike are ALL under sin. As it is written: there is no one righteous, not even one...
Rom3:9&10

Now we know that whatever the law says it says to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:19&20

Stop just plucking verses out at random. The above is Pauls conclusion concerning what he has previously written

 

[Dan61861]

Let's say he really believed with all his heart in Jesus as his Savior. Let's just say he had a moment of weakness. He could be saved, right? By your throwing the question mark up there, this suggests that there is a possibility he could be saved. But if such is the case, then you need to preach from the roof tops how effective Eternal Security really is by saying that one can live like the devil and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus. No future unrepentant sin too big for Jesus to cover, right?


...

Jason, let's just say isn't reality. Let God judge him. You nor I truly know his belief. I can say, he didn't love his nieghbor. In this situation and in times past.

I can give you that Peter scripture again. No using our liberty for maliciousness.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Jason, both Paul and Peter say we have liberty in Christ.

What do they mean?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, let's just say isn't reality. Let God judge him. You nor I truly know his belief. I can say, he didn't love his nieghbor. In this situation and in times past.

I can give you that Peter scripture again. No using our liberty for maliciousness.

In Christ
Daniel

So we are back at the Law (to love) as proof someone is saved? I thought you implied before that salvation is not in anything you do but it is only having a belief in Jesus.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, both Paul and Peter say we have liberty in Christ.

What do they mean?

In Christ
Daniel

Well, I will first tell you what our "liberty in Christ" is not in reference to (according to Scripture).

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.” (Galatians 5:13).

“As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.” (1 Peter 2:16-17).
‭

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[Bible Highlighter]

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Live... any... longer... therein.

In other words, Paul is discouraging the idea of us believers living any longer in sin. This of course is in direct contradiction to the Eternal Security belief that says you will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature.


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[1stcenturylady]

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).


...

Romans 6:
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[stuart lawrence]

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Live... any... longer... therein.

In other words, Paul is discouraging the idea of us believers living any longer in sin. This of course is in direct contradiction to the Eternal Security belief that says you will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature.


...

Now we know that whatever the law says it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rim3:19&20

As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless
Phil3:6

I actually feel sorry for you Jason. To continue insisting verses like rom3:19&20 only refer to old law as you put it, not the moral law, is to resist the plain truth of scripture. That's not a nice state to be in. The idea Paul would write those verses concerning law he could faultlessly obey is ridiculous, as all willing to accept the truth must know.
And it is tragic, you spend so much time reading the Bible, and so love to discuss it, but will go to any lengths to argue against the plain truth of the gospel message written by the person who wrote half the books of the NT

 

[stuart lawrence]

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Live... any... longer... therein.

In other words, Paul is discouraging the idea of us believers living any longer in sin. This of course is in direct contradiction to the Eternal Security belief that says you will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature.


...

You could qualify the dead to sin bit Jason. As you admit you sin, even if you call them little sins, you can't believe dead to sin means you are dead to ever committing sin. Dead to sin in respect of dead to seeking to live a wilfull life of sin would seem to clarify it better wouldn't it.
Always good to clarify, so as to ensure we do not, inadvertantly lay conditions on others we ourselves cannot live up to. Then we have shown love and consideration to our neighbour, and lived according to the heart of Christ's teachings

 

[stuart lawrence]

Romans 6:
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Yes, there are always people you can tell that they are not under law, but they need further clarity to understand that message isn't a licence to sin.
Some even today believe if you are not under a law of righteousness it is a licence to sin.
When we walk after the Holy Spirit he convicts us of the truth, for he is the Spirit of truth.
Sadly, there are many sincere folk who want to follow Pauls message, for they want to follow biblical truth, but they have nagging doubts about the grace Paul wrote of, believing it must give a licence to sin. So their real focus is on avoiding sin so they may attain heaven. They then end up living under a law of righteousness. It is so sad

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Speaking of the baptism of the holy spirit.
I remember in my youth, after the service, sitting on a wall outside the evangelical church we went to, smoking a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the stalwarts in the church made me believe I would be cast into hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections.
A few years later, Jean Darnell confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Yet at that time I still smoked!

I learnt a valuable lesson that day. God does not lay the demands on you that some of his children do

While we do have a liberty in Christ from the Law of Moses to eat unclean animals, we do not have a liberty in Christ to destroy the temple of the Holy Ghost. Smoking significantly destroys the temple God gave you by hurting your lungs (which is an organ that helps you with breathing air). I remember one of my family members had a friend who we visited. This person coughed really, really bad many times through out the day because they smoked a lot. Smoking gives you a fix, too. People need to have it. It is a horrible addiction. But I have talked with a believer who after having come to Christ, their desire for smoking had stopped. They tried everything in the past and failed. Yet, with Jesus, these addictions can easily be non existent.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You could qualify the dead to sin bit Jason. As you admit you sin, even if you call them little sins, you can't believe dead to sin means you are dead to ever committing sin. Dead to sin in respect of dead to seeking to live a wilfull life of sin would seem to clarify it better wouldn't it.
Always good to clarify, so as to ensure we do not, inadvertantly lay conditions on others we ourselves cannot live up to. Then we have shown love and consideration to our neighbour, and lived according to the heart of Christ's teachings

Again, let's not keep repeating points we already went over. I told you before about 1 John 5:16-17 and Matthew 23:23. Not all sin is the same. 1 John 2:4 is in reference to serious sins that lead to death. Just read the context of John's epistle. John makes no mention of minor transgressions as the breaking of God's commands leading to spiritual death. John says in 1 John 3:15 that if you do not love your brother, no eternal life abides in you. This is the context of what he is talking about. The moral law (See Romans 13:8-10). If you want to wear horse blinders and see something in Scripture that is not stated, then by all means go ahead and do that.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Read on my friend to Pauls conclusion as to what he has previously written, including ch2!

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and gentiles alike are ALL under sin. As it is written: there is no one righteous, not even one...
Rom3:9&10

Now we know that whatever the law says it says to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:19&20

Stop just plucking verses out at random. The above is Pauls conclusion concerning what he has previously written

Sorry. You are the one plucking verses out context. You completely white washed Romans 2 in favor of a wrong interpretation on Romans 3. Romans 3 is clearly not talking about the faithful saint in the present tense. Romans 3 is talking about Justification or Initial Salvation. We all need to come to Christ (without works) to initially be saved. Romans 2 is still true in what it says. It says, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law." (Romans 2:12). That statement is still true!

Paul was talking against "Circumcision Salvationism." Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" So Paul was talking about how we cannot be justified by keeping the Old Law alone (i.e. circumcision salvationism). We are justified by Christ now.

Also, if you believe that the faithful saint is also under sin according to Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe that the faithful saint has no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too (See Romans 3:11). But see, you have to ignore certain verses in order to make your wrong interpretation on Romans 3 work.

The point in Romans 3 is that Christ wipes the past slate clean where we can begin our walk with God; Circumcision does nothing now to help a believer today to begin a relationship with God. It is an Old Covenant Law (that is no longer binding anymore). For circumcision is a type or shadow of Jesus Christ.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You could qualify the dead to sin bit Jason. As you admit you sin, even if you call them little sins, you can't believe dead to sin means you are dead to ever committing sin. Dead to sin in respect of dead to seeking to live a wilfull life of sin would seem to clarify it better wouldn't it.
Always good to clarify, so as to ensure we do not, inadvertantly lay conditions on others we ourselves cannot live up to. Then we have shown love and consideration to our neighbour, and lived according to the heart of Christ's teachings

Again, you are not dealing with what the passage is talking about. They that are dead to sin shall not live any longer therein to sin. That is what Paul is clearly saying.

For if I asked the question, "How can we who are allergic to cats live any longer therein in with cats?" The question is strongly suggestive as saying that we shoud not live with cats anymore. Just as Paul is saying that we should not live any longer therein in sin. But people do not want to give up their sin, so they seek to change Paul's words here in Romans 6:1-2.

Paul asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin?" His answer is.... "God forbid."
Your answer is.... "we will continue in sin because we believers will always sin as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature."


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[Bible Highlighter]

Now we know that whatever the law says it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rim3:19&20

As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless
Phil3:6

I actually feel sorry for you Jason. To continue insisting verses like rom3:19&20 only refer to old law as you put it, not the moral law, is to resist the plain truth of scripture. That's not a nice state to be in. The idea Paul would write those verses concerning law he could faultlessly obey is ridiculous, as all willing to accept the truth must know.
And it is tragic, you spend so much time reading the Bible, and so love to discuss it, but will go to any lengths to argue against the plain truth of the gospel message written by the person who wrote half the books of the NT

Again, Romans 3 is talking about Justification in Christ and it is talking about we are not under the Old Law anymore. We all need to be justified by Christ (apart from works) and be initially saved by Jesus and not by circumcision.

Romans 3:11 blows your interpretation on Romans 3 out of the water.
It says that the same individuals who have fallen short of the glory of God and has sinned also does not have any understanding and does not seek after God. So if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 to be talking about the faithful saint in their present tense walk with Christ and not initial salvation, then you must conclude that the faithful saint has no understanding and does not seek after God.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, both Paul and Peter say we have liberty in Christ.

What do they mean?

In Christ
Daniel

The context is talking about how they are no longer under the Law of Moses anymore.
They eat can eat unclean animals, and not be circumcised, and are not obligated to follow all the sabbath and holy days for the laws given to Israel (i.e. the Law of Moses). They have a liberty in Christ now that they did not have before. For Scripture says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. This is not talking about the moral law. For many passages in the New Testament talk about how the moral law (and it's punishment in the after life for disobying it) is still in effect (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Revelation 21:8).

1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:1-2).

The context is verse 2. It talks about circumcision (Which is an Old Testament Command or Law). So verse 1 is talking about the Law of Moses and not all law.

For if you were to skip down to verses 19-21, it talks about how the moral law is still in effect and that disobeying the moral law will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21). Those who walk after the Spirit (and have the fruits of the Spirit) are not under the law. If one is sinning, they do not have the fruits of the Spirit and therefore they are under the law and it's full weight of punishment.


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[1stcenturylady]

Yes, there are always people you can tell that they are not under law, but they need further clarity to understand that message isn't a licence to sin.
Some even today believe if you are not under a law of righteousness it is a licence to sin.
When we walk after the Holy Spirit he convicts us of the truth, for he is the Spirit of truth.
Sadly, there are many sincere folk who want to follow Pauls message, for they want to follow biblical truth, but they have nagging doubts about the grace Paul wrote of, believing it must give a licence to sin. So their real focus is on avoiding sin so they may attain heaven. They then end up living under a law of righteousness. It is so sad

Yes, I see those who use grace as a license to sin as wearing rose colored glasses. They only read what they want to believe, and all the warnings they can't see, let alone understand.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?