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Featured The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    A wonderful portion of scripture concerning this subject:

    We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in. Christ Jesus that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
    If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
    Gal2:15-18

    Paul emphasises you cannot be justified/ righteous before God by observing the law/ striving to defeat your sin.
    He then states that while we seek to be justified in Christ it may become evident we are sinners. Why does he ask the question: Does Christ promotes sin?
    Imagine a new convert turning up at church with evident sin in their life, heartily joining in the service. What would someone think who did not understand the true message?:

    If that person is a Christian Christ must promote sin, for here he is joining in enthusiastically with glaring sin in his life.

    What the person doesn't know is the new convert hates his sin, and is trusting Christ for victory over it through a righteousness of faith in Christ, not observing the law. Otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. He is entitled to praise God for Christ being his rightstanding before him, while hating his sin and earnestly seeking victory over it.
    Immediately Paul asks the question he answers it:
    Absolutely not! If i rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker/sinner
    What has Paul ardently sought to destroy? A righteousness of observing the law. Therefore if paul turned back and tried to defeat his sin to be saved/ righteous before God he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/ sinner
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I know Christian counsellors who try and help people who come to them in desperation.
    They went to churches that in effect taught them: perform nigh on perfect or you will be cast into hell.

    Preaching a message devoid of the love, mercy and compassion of God is just cold, hard religion. And the people who are honest in their estimation of themselves get crushed, and end up in dire straits, often riddled by sin.
    One Christian counsellor told me it was spiritual abuse. I agreed with him
     
  3. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Love, mercy and compassion I believe Jesus tried to teach this more than anything else. With these three, you would fulfill the Law.

    In Christ
    Daniel

    Brother, you truly are refreshing. May God's grace be upon us all.
     
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely
     
  5. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Personally, I would say it's a seal of ownership. Christ has purchased us with His blood.

    Btw, I did enjoy your post about repentance. When Jason said that we already hashed that out, it's because I had already brought it up. I do agree with you, we repent of unbelief and turn toward the truth. Christ is the truth.

    In Christ brother
    Daniel
     
  6. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    In your second paragraph the second sentence is correct.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, I want to mention a couple of quick points in regards to Paul's (Saul's) struggle with sin within Romans 7:14-24:

    #1. We need God inside of us in order to obey the Lord.
    A person must have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to be able to properly obey all of God's Word. It is impossible to truly obey the Lord in all of what He commands us if it is not the Lord our God working within us to make that happen. I was never in disagreement with this truth in Scripture.

    #2. We need to have a new heart so as to obey God.
    In addition, a person needs to also be regenerated and born again spiritually, as well. They need a new heart with new desires (Which happens after a person repents, accepts Christ, and believes in Christ's death and resurrection on their behalf). Paul did not have these things when he struggled to keep the Old Law.

    #3. Paul was under the False Pharisee Religion.
    The problem was that Paul was trying to follow the Pharisee religion that was all about law and no grace. The problem was that he did not have God or Christ or the Spirit in his life so as to obey. The problem was not the moral law, but the problem was not having God in His life. So the pink bunny was for him while he was Saul (without God in his life) and not while he was Paul (when he became a Christian).

    #4. After Christ's death, a New Covenant (that includes it's own laws in NT Scripture) was made.
    Another problem was that Paul (Saul) was trying to follow the Torah and it's ways, when such a Covenant was no more after Christ's death, as well. Yes, the moral law has carried over into the New Covenant, but Saul was not aware of this New Covenant as a Pharisee (while he struggled to keep God's moral law without Jesus in His life).

    Second, we need to identify, and define what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is and what it does according to Scripture.

    #1. Where in the Bible is the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" mentioned?
    Romans 8:2. For it says, "...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus...."

    #2. What does the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus do?
    Romans 8:2 says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and death." So the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death. Old Testament Laws like circumcision, or do not eat unclean animals do not apply anymore (Galatians 5:2) (Acts of the Apostles 10:9-16).

    #3. What is this Law of Sin and Death mentioned in Romans 8:2?
    Is this Law of Sin and Death speaking about "all law" or is it talking about the "Law of Moses" (i.e. the 613 Commands of the Old Testament)?
    It is talking about the Old Law because in verse 3, it says this,
    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." (Romans 8:3).
    Paul is talking about the "law" could not do during the time of when God the Father sends the Son in the likneness of sinful flesh so as to condemn sin in the flesh. Only the Law of Moses existed at the time of when God the Father sent His Son. So this cannot be talking about the commands or laws that came after Christ's death (Which began the New Covenant). Also, the "Old Law" is called the "law of sin and death" because if you broke God's commands in the Old Testament, in certain cases woud involve capital punishment (i.e. you could physically face real death) for disobeying or sinning against God's laws. This is not the case under the New Testament because there are no laws or commands in the NT that are given to believers that involve capital punishment.

    #4. What exactly is the "righteousness of the law" that we as believers fulfill in Romans 8:4?
    Verse 4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4). I believe this to be Romans 13:8-10. For if we love our neighbor, we will fulfill the moral law of the Old that has carried on into the New. For by loving our neighbor, we will not covet, bear false witness, steal, or kill. This is the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law that still applies to us today. In other words, when one reads the words "the righteousness of the law" in Romans 8:4 it is basically saying that "righteous part" or that "righteous portion" (that is still applicable for us believers today under the New Covenant) from the Old Law.

    #5. What is the walking after the Spirit involve?
    The walking after the Spirit involves obedience to the commands in the New Testament.
    All Scripture was God breathed by the Spirit and is profitable for training in righteous living.
    For 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"
    What are the fruits of the Spirit?
    "...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance.." (Galatians 5:22-23).
    These fruits of the Spirit also just happen to be laws or commands in the New Testament, too.
    Love the Lord your God (Matthew 22:37-38).
    Love your neighbor (Matthew 22:39).
    Be Joyful (Luke 6:23) (James 1:2).
    Make Peace (Hebrews 12:14).
    Suffer all things (1 Corinthians 9:12).
    Be Gentle (2 Timothy 2:24).
    Do Good (Matthew 5:44) (Luke 6:27).
    Have Faith in God (Mark 11:22).
    Humble yourself (Meekness) (James 4:10) (1 Peter 5:6).
    Cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (Self Control or Temperance) (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    While the Spirit can fill us believers with these fruits, we also are commanded in the NT to put forth these fruits, as well. So why tell us to put forth these fruits if they are just always upon us automatically? Sometimes man tries to resist God even after having come to Him. God's Word is a lamp unto his feet and a light unto his path. It hits a person over the head in what they need to do when they are trying to kick against the pricks.


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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Problem is the old law as you put it, that is not part of NC law, was not the law of sin and death, for that law could be faultlessly obeyed
     
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit can only empower the saved to cease/ overcome sin, not the unsaved.
    If you believe any of the post you are referring to was incorrect, please state why
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When looking at the whole of a human's life: Only Jesus faultlessly obeyed the Old Testament Law. Now, as for other humans who had sinned: Well, after a person has repented and come to God, it is suggestive that Enoch pleased God in regards to righteous living. Granted, while there was no written law yet in Enoch's time, there was still law of some kind in existence because God destroyed the entire world for their wickedness and sin (Which by the way is an example to all who should live ungodly thereafter). The thing is that the way of salvation in the Old Testament was not obedience alone. Paul (Saul) was in a false pharisee religion that wrongfully pushed "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace. The way of salvation in the Old Testament was similar to ours but they did not have the details that we have and they exclusively followed the commands in the Old Testament and not the commands in the New. All believers (both in the OT and the NT) are saved by Jesus Christ (by abiding in Him), by receiving His mercy (grace), and by cooperating with His transforming power to change their lives.


    ...
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    In regard to the law a pharisee: as for zeal, persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless
    Phil3:6

    I repeat. OC law, not applicable under NC law could be faultlessly obeyed, therefore that particular law was not the law of sin and death.
    It is hard to kick against the pricks
     
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The particular law that caused sin and death, the law that Paul referred to as the letter that kills and the ministry of death and condemnation was the TC
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul touched the law in regards to being a Pharisee (within the false pharisee religion).

    "...as touching the law, a Pharisee." (Philippians 3:5).

    Paul persecuted the church (Philippians 3:6).

    Paul was not blameless according to the Old Law because he was persecuting God's people.
    He was breaking the command to love in the OT.
    All the OT pointed to the Messiah.
    So Paul was not blameless.
    He struggled to keep the law as a Pharisee.
    He talks about this struggle in Romans 7:14-24.
    Paul essentially said that he used to be the worst of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).
    Paul was only blameless in regards to the "touching" of the law of righteousness.
    He did not actually embrace it, but merely touched it.


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  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Paul broke the law to love as a pharisee. Moral law incorporated into NC law. His struggle with sin( rom7:14-24) concerned the moral law, applicable law under the NC.
    Give it up Jason. Why resist the truth
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You said before that he was blameless in keeping the Law and now you are not saying that.
    So which is it?


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  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyways, I need to sleep.
    May God bless you all.



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  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Can you not understand very plain statements, or can you just not bring yourself to ever admit you are wrong?
    Paul was blameless regarding OC law not applicable under NC law.

    Can you not understand that? Do you need further, more detailed explanation?
     
  18. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Let me reiterate. Saul the pharisee could faultlessly obey OC law that is not applicable NC law. Saul the pharisee could not obey the moral law which is law applicable under the NC.
    Therefore the particular law Saul the pharisee could faultlessly obey was not the law of sin and death to him.
    The law of sin and death for Saul was the moral law, for that moral law he could not faultlessly obey( as Jason pointed out) And the moral law is incorporated into NC law
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  19. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Saul the pharisee did NOT need a saviour from sin, concerning OC law/old law that is not applicable NC law, for that law he could faultlessly obey. Saul only needed a saviour from sin regarding the moral law, for that particular law he could not faultlessly obey
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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