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Featured The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think there is a Biblical version of eternal security. It does not mean we can do anything at all and still go to Heaven. It means God succeeds in correcting us > Hebrews 12:4-11 < so we are not going to do evil. We may do wrong things of distraction and weakness, but less and less as we become conformed to the image of Jesus. Being conformed to the image of Jesus is included in Biblical eternal security.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    First off, it seemed necessary to address the following which you wrote in your previous post--

    So, if we now agree that it's NOT the case that Eternal Security is unbiblical after all, we could take the next step and consider the other verses that you have in mind.

    That's fair. In fact, it's appropriate of you to bring up. However, my point was not to settle this issue but to point out that it is not an easy call such as the people who ridicule the concept of Eternal Security often claim. It is challenging and requires co-ordinating all of these verses to reach the correct conclusion.

    I don't think we should start into that now--nor do you, apparently--but neither do I think it's right to say that Eternal Security is flat-out, unquestionably, "not Biblical."
     
  3. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But we don't agree.

    And I though I would be surprised if you want to hash this out...again, if that's what it takes to show you why I disagree, so be it.

    and if you, or anyone else wants to go that route, let me start with what is often the last question I ask before the debate fizzles.

    Can we live in perpetual/continual, say...10 commandment type sin once saved, without asking forgiveness/repenting, and still go to heaven after we die?
     
  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Part of getting saved is we trust ourselves and control to God, so we do not get into a situation like that. And God changes our wills and our nature so we don't. And even if we could still do some wrong thing, because of not being totally perfect when we die, God can keep control of us so we don't. He is able to have us ready when He knows we really will die.

    So, I think it is wise not to glorify ourselves as still having a lot of control if we have trusted control to God and given ourselves to Him >

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    If He is working in our wills, we more and more do not have our own will control. He has changed us so it is our nature to will what He wants. We are in union with Him and how He lives and acts through us > 1 Corinthians 6:17, Galatians 2:20.

    So, if someone thinks we could sin badly and die but go to Heaven, this idea means the person did not submit oneself and one's control to God. So, it is possible the person never really submitted oneself to Jesus for salvation, in the first place (1 John 2:19). May be the person made certain gestures which others told him or her to do.

    But . . . also . . . if someone else is arguing that a child of God can be near one's death sin and not repent, this too would mean the person did not give oneself and one's control over to God.

    So, if we have trusted in Jesus, expect Him to change us so it is not our character to get into such a situation. And as ones growing in Christ we will be quite blessedly busy with what is so better . . . instead of spending a lot of time on bad possibilities which do not apply to someone who has given oneself to the LORD.

    But we can tend to read a scripture and right away think up problems about what it could mean, instead of submitting to how God is able to do all His word with us, the way He means it :)
     
  5. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would disagree, control is what it's all about. And I don't glorify myself for that or anything, I just try to do it.

    By saying we glorify ourselves by taking control, you do like others so commonly do in this argument, and make it sound like a bad thing to do as God wishes of us. It's like the people who say we are bad because we depend on the law for salvation because we try to obey the commandments, when nothing could be further than the truth.


    Just wanted to get past a few of the usual tactics right off. :)

    Would you care to take a stab at the question in post 23?
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    My apologies, in that case. I wasn't trying to be coy, but I somehow thought I'd picked up a different message.

    Nope. But no one who believes in 1) Salvation by Faith or 2) Eternal Security thinks that we can.

    The argument you present is either a strawman or a terrible example of how people can be misinformed. It is a complete misrepresentation of both points.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is the typical Eternal Security proponent response. Let's point out a problem with me as a person instead of addressing the issue with Scripture. The problem with Eternal Security is that on the one hand it sounds like it is teaching holiness and yet on the other hand, that is not what it is teaching at all. Eternal Security teaches a double message that conflicts with itself.


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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, that's a pile of words that doesn't explain very much of anything, does it?
     
  9. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    no

    And you might not understand what I mean by giving control over to God. I do not mean that control is bad, but how we need to be in union with God so we share with Him in His ability to control us so better than we can manage our own selves > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5 to me means we do well not to trust our own selves, at all, because only God is good and sufficient to get us to be and do all His word means :)

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    It does not say we get our own selves to will what is right.

    And our Apostle Paul says he labored "according to His working which works in me mightily." (in Colossians 1:29) So, I see this means how Paul did not do things in his own control in separation from how God in him was living and working. And this means we are so personally sharing with our Father while we submit to how He rules us in our hearts > Colossians 3:15.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    God knows a person's heart and He knows their future and He is in control of life and death. If they die in one or two unrepentant sins (even if they generally lived a holy life prior), God would be just to send them to hell because He would know that they would no doubt go down a wrong road of sin that they would not come back from. I am not saying God condemns all believers for a serious sin in every case. Obviously Christians need to mature. But if God does not condemn somebody even just for one sin that they did not repent of (Before they died), then God would be (a) Breaking His own standard of morality (b) It would send the wrong message about how God views sin and evil. Remember, Adam caused a separation between God and man by just one sin. Was that a technicality? Surely not. So yes. You do not believe in Eternal Security. Good. But I still see the same result as to the fruits of Eternal Security by what your saying here. You are still throwing morality under the bus. Justifying one sin vs. (versus) lots of sin does not make any difference. Both are evil. To say God rewards us with Heaven despite us doing evil is immoral and wrong and it sends the wrong message about sin and God's plan of salvation.

    No. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust, you are in danger of hell fire. Jesus did not say you need to do this habitually. Peter told Simon to repent of his sin of trying to paying for gifts of the Spirit. He told him to pray so that God might forgive him. This is just one sin.


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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, it is obvious in what I said. But if you need clarification in where I am coming from, then watch the video series in post #2. You do not have to watch the whole thing. Just watch a little bit of it so you can get the general idea of what I am talking about.


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  12. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No apology necessary, I undwerstand how you could have seen that as you did.

    Thing is, yes they do think we can, and I have no doubt in my mind that is a fact. And the example is good, it cuts right to the chase..
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The idea that all regenerate individuals will always do good and right does not sound consistent with verses like this, though.

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37).

    Why would Jesus (God) say something like this? It makes no sense according to your belief. If Jesus really wanted to save them, then He would over ride their free will and regenerate them so as to walk holy.


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  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK, if "no" then there is no eternal security, it can be lost if we don't act right.

    I honestly do understand but God doesn't control us. We have a bargain with God, we trust him, we have faith he will keep his word and take us to a good place if we do right. But we control the doing right... there is nothing mysterious about this.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No, they do not.

    Now, having said that, I imagine that you could come back and say, "Oh yes they do!" But who are you talking about? Name a few churches for us that officially take the position you described. Or perhaps a few of the posters here on OP. Find real people who say that you can claim to be a believer but then do nothing in the way of good works and it's all right, because the doctrines of Sola Fide and Eternal Security are supposed to mean that you'll be saved anyway.

    Well, I am willing to believe that nothing will dissuade you from what you want to believe. I'll settle for the fact that you are believing in your own idea of what you'd like Salvation by Faith and Eternal Security to mean, but not that this is what the people or churches that affirm these doctrines believe by them.
     
  16. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We disagree, end of story.

    Yes, "In danger" think about it.

    Not sure why you are dragging "habitually" into this argument, I made no claims one way of another here on that.

    Anyway, nothing you say there defends your position that God is so OCD he will hold something out of our hands, or some extenuating circumstance keeping us from asking forgiveness against us.

    Again, we just disagree on this one, by far.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, to what degree do they sin and repent and sin and repent over and over in this life?

    Is it 20%?
    How about 50%?
    To what degree is the line of morality drawn?
    How much sin can they get away with before we say... "Hey, they are being bad and evil now."?

    God says in His Word to be ye holy because I am holy.
    Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.
    But obvious these words in Scripture cannot be believed at face value with your belief, though.


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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sure what you want me to say? I know people who do, and there are some here who feel we can do those things and still be saved. If you think I would sit here and lie through my teeth about that, then there isn't much sense in this conversation.
     
  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But if God changes our nature so we do His will because of becoming like Jesus, how can we still "not act right"?

    We who have trusted in Jesus are predestined to become "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren," our Apostle Paul says in Romans 8:29. We do not get ourselves and will ourselves to become like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:4-5). So, if He succeeds in changing us to become like Jesus, we do not choose to sin, better and better as Jesus grows in us > Jesus has become our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19. And we have left behind how we can control, since old things of our old nature and old human will are "passed away" > 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    And if you have the new nature, "the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), it is not your nature to choose to leave God. And our Father's correction changes us so we are "partakers of His holiness" < in Hebrews 12:4-11. His holiness includes how He is unable to do evil; more and more we have this in sharing with Him

    So, I don't think it is good to get people to think that they are the captain of their own souls after they have made Jesus the Captain of our souls.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Then you technically do not believe any different than Eternal Security Proponents.
    The issue with Eternal Security is that it justifies evil and yet on one hand it makes it appear like it doesn't (When such a thing is not true).

    The problem in saying that you can commit even just one sin (like say murder, lying, or adultery) and still be saved is still giving people a license to sin. When they think they can get away with one sin, then they will then think they can get away with committing many sins (With the thinking they are saved).

    Again, how many sins did Adam commit before he caused a separation between God and man?

    As for Jesus's words in Matthew 5:28-30, I actually was summarizing what Jesus was saying. He actually did not say we would be in danger of hell fire. He said that it is better to pluck out your eye than to be cast into hell fire. In other words, it is so bad and so serious that we have to be willing to metaphorically cut out our eyes (cut out all things that can make us to stumble into looking upon women in lust). If it was not that serious to look upon a woman in lust, then Jesus would just simply say, "Continue to pay lip service to me and do not worry about looking at women in lust on occasion the rest of your life."

    This could mean I can occasionally be a heroine taker or porn watcher and God would be cool with that. But that is not what God wants from us. He wants to completely change our lives for the better and not for the worse.


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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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