The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Bible Highlighter]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While I am not a big Dan Corner fan, he does make a great eye opening point here in regards to this "Double Message within Eternal Security."

To see what I am talking about, here is a video debate between Dan Corner and Mark Driscoll.

Mark Driscoll Mars Hill Church Dan Corner Debate


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[Rajni]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth? ...

My understanding is that once one is saved, they're saved, no matter what. It's very difficult to factor one's behavior into it without it becoming a slippery slope into a works-based salvation.

Salvation brings about the good works, but good works don't bring about (or maintain) the salvation. That's how I've always understood it, anyway.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My understanding is that once one is saved, they're saved, no matter what. It's very difficult to factor one's behavior into it without it becoming a slippery slope into a works-based salvation.

Salvation brings about the good works, but good works don't bring about (or maintain) the salvation. That's how I've always understood it, anyway.

Watch the video debate and you will see where I am coming from. It dawned on me that Dan's encounter has also been my experience in this, as well (When I look back at my many discussions with Scripture on this point). For I have debated against Eternal Security for many years and I am just now beginning to see the dual message or the deception used within Eternal Security.


..

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Albion]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


...

I saith, "Where did you get the idea that 'you can die unrepentant and still be saved?'"

I've read a lot of these threads and I don't recall that being a many-times repeated message offered by anyone.

 

[Rajni]

Watch the video debate and you will see where I am coming from. It dawned on me that Dan's encounter has also been my experience in this, as well (When I look back at my many discussions with Scripture on this point). For I have debated against Eternal Security for many years and I am just now beginning to see the dual message or the deception used within Eternal Security...

Rather than sit and watch videos, how about you sharing where you're coming from? Much more efficient, that way.

 

[com7fy8]

One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like.

Yes. And Isaiah 55:11 says God's word "shall accomplish" what God pleases. To me, Jason, this means that God's word will bring someone to Jesus and then will finish the job. So, the person will not turn from God and then die in an unrepentant state. Part of my scripture for this includes >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

This is God's word which does what He means . . . how we who have trusted in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12) are each now "one spirit with" Jesus Himself in us (Galatians 4:19). And this union is in His almighty power to keep us plus change our nature so we no longer are able to turn away and stay away from Him. And this union has us growing in His own nature of His own love incapable of sinning, making us more and more > "as He is" "in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) 1 John 4:17 says God's love "has been perfected among us" . . . not "will be" or "could be if only we", but "has been".

So, Jason, if God's word has so succeeded in us so we are "as He is in this world", how ever could we get away? We have trusted God and all He is able to do, and God's grace includes how God in us effects our nature; so if He has taken us and started changing us to be more and more like Jesus . . . we are less and less able to go elsewhere.

Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

Well, our Apostle Paul says,

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

So, in case someone claims to be a Christian, but the person is becoming worse and worse so he or she sins at the end . . . the person was not growing in Jesus and maturing like God does with us. So, I would not wishfully preach the person into Heaven.

Yes, there can be newer children of God who can have problems, but our Heavenly Father succeeds in correcting us who are His children > I offer Hebrews 12:4-11. So, in case we fail, don't give up, but seek how God is able to correct us, not trying on our own. Our failure is because we are not submitting to how God succeeds. And so, we bleed and suffer.

But Jesus did not give up on any of His disciples.

By the way, we can read about what Peter did, even after he was filled with the Holy Spirit and had ministered the Holy Spirit to Gentiles at the house of Cornelius. Still, Peter was able to play the hypocrite. But Paul helped them get restored.

God made sure His word would succeed to do what He really means by His word. Peter became able, I can see, to later write those two epistles which I would say are the work of a man who has learned from his errors and now has become even experiencing much of what he is writing in these two epistles.

So, Jason, I understand that God's word means that if you truly give yourself to Jesus, you leave behind your so-called free will which could take you away from God. You have denied your self which has that sort of a will, and now we seek and receive real correction so we have our new nature in Jesus making us so we can not get away. And so we are guaranteed to spend eternity with Christ, plus guaranteed how God will perfect us in His love, "in this world".

So, procrastinating until after death is not Biblical.

And so, I do not believe there is any such thing as someone becoming a child of God and then sinning in a way which loses the person's salvation. Plus, we grow to share more and more with one another as God's family, helping one another to be corrected into the image of Jesus in us, and learning with each other how to relate in His love >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

But since we are not perfect, we are wise to trust and depend on God to make sure we do not sin fully away from Him. We trust Him to change our nature so we can not. He is easily able to do this, and the Bible says He does this with us who are His children.

 

[Hall]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


...

I think the answer to that question is in these verses:

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[Sammy-San]

I saith, "Where did you get the idea that 'you can die unrepentant and still be saved?'"

I've read a lot of these threads and I don't recall that being a many-times repeated message offered by anyone.

So when we are saved we aren't forgiven of future sins?

 

[RC1970]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


...

If a person is really regenerate (they are truly repentant), then they have eternal security. If a person is not regenerate (they are unrepentant), then they do not have eternal security.

Before a person is regenerate they sin, but they do not care that they sin. They are unrepentant.

After a person is made regenerate (by the Spirit) they still sin, but they are convicted of their sin and seek forgiveness and repent (even if only for a while). If they sin again, they repeat the process of seeking forgiveness and repenting. This process continues throughout the Christian life until they die.

Once a regenerate person dies, they become glorified and no longer sin.

 

[Albion]

So when we are saved we aren't forgiven of future sins?

?? That does not appear to me to be the point that was under discussion.

 

[Rajni]

A salvation that's only temporary isn't really salvation. More like vacation, imo.

Again, it's a slippery slope that takes the Savior-status off of Jesus and places it onto the individual, through their good works.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[StevenBelievin]

One thing is certain. The justified will be glorified according to Romans 8:30. The question is.... Are you one of the predestined, called and justified that Romans 8:30 is referring to? That's what making your calling and election sure is referring to. Making it sure to yourself.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages.

I only have one message when it comes to eternal security, it's not biblical.

It's man made, and sends a message one can do as they wish once saved and still enter into the Kingdom of God, so not only is it not biblical, it's very dangerous.

 

[Albion]

I only have one message when it comes to eternal security, it's not biblical.

It's man made, and sends a message one can do as they wish once saved and still enter into the Kingdom of God, so not only is it not biblical, it's very dangerous.

Then what shall we do with or about the Bible verses that say there IS such a thing? We even find Jesus himself attesting to it in the Gospel of John.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?

That would be like being judged to hell on a technicality. For someone who does a good job at being a Christian, and happens to die, while they are say, mulling over a forgiveness issue, or didn't get a chance to say their evening prayer asking forgiveness of their sin, to be sent to Hell? That doesn't sound like an understanding God to me.

So I'd say there are at least circumstances, and not necessarily even extreme ones, that is not true.

One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like.

No argument there.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Then what shall we do with or about the Bible verses that say there IS such a thing? We even find Jesus himself attesting to it in the Gospel of John.

And what shall we do with the ones that says there is not? We also find Jesus speaking against it many times....the "Goats" for instance, that were caught off guard, and that's just one of many.

Do you really want to re argue this one?