The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Dan61861]

Did you read post 2342?

You are saying, because it is high risk the excitement is greater. I do agree with that, but that doesn't get to the root. I'm trying to explain the root of the problem, not so well I might add. Even though there is the excitement or danger in having an affair. The excitement isn't the root of the problem. What the Law does is draw out that root in us, that passion to sin. it exposes us, leaving us bare.

The law doesn't cause us to sin, it doesn't drive us to sin greater. It brings our passion to sin into the open.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

You are saying, because it is high risk the excitement is greater. I do agree with that, but that doesn't get to the root. I'm trying to explain the root of the problem, not so well I might add. Even though there is the excitement or danger in having an affair. The excitement isn't the root of the problem. What the Law does is draw out that root in us, that passion to sin. it exposes us, leaving us bare.

The law doesn't cause us to sin, it doesn't drive us to sin greater. It brings our passion to sin into the open.

In Christ
Daniel

The law reveals the sin. The law makes us conscious of sin, but.

If i said to you:. If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell.
What is the first thought that would come into your head if you believed me?

 

[Dan61861]

The law reveals the sin. The law makes us conscious of sin, but.

If i said to you:. If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell.
What is the first thought that would come into your head if you believed me?

Honestly, my first thought was your nuts. If I believed you, i would think of a pink rabbit. Only because you put the image in my mind.

If I was to say to you, thou shalt not lie or God will condemn you to hell. Do you begin to think, man I wanna lie?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

the law doesn't give you passion to sin, it exposes your passion to sin

 

[stuart lawrence]

Honestly, my first thought was your nuts. If I believed you, i would think of a pink rabbit. Only because you put the image in my mind.

If I was to say to you, thou shalt not lie or God will condemn you to hell. Do you begin to think, man I wanna lie?

In Christ
Daniel

The commandment this relates to more than any other is: Thou shalt not covet. That is why Paul spent most of rom ch7 speaking of that commandment.
Few of us have a problem with not stealing, few are homicidal maniacs, but we all have a sexual appetite

 

[Dan61861]

interesting conversation buddy, but I gotta get to work.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

interesting conversation buddy, but I gotta get to work.

In Christ
Daniel

OK, speak to you later. Hope work goes well

 

[Dan61861]

The commandment this relates to more than any other is: Thou shalt not covet. That is why Paul spent most of rom ch7 speaking of that commandment.
Few of us have a problem with not stealing, few are homicidal maniacs, but we all have a sexual appetite

Yes, forbidden fruit..a man desires what he can't have. That lust is already present, the Law exposes/reveals how great our passion to sin is.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, forbidden fruit..a man desires what he can't have. That lust is already present, the Law exposes/reveals how great our passion to sin is.

Lust/ sexual desire is a basic instinct of man. But the more excited you get at the thought of it, the less your ability to resist those thoughts. The more those thoughts will grow and dominate your life.
If you believe obeying the TC is what decides the highest stakes battle of your life, the excitement stirred in you when you think of coveting will Simply grow and grow

 

[stuart lawrence]

The doctrine directly opposes the notion that a person can fall in and out of grace, which is something the Catholic Church professes.

The catholic church may openly teach the above, but many protestants believe it in the practical reality of their lives

 

[HighCherub]

The catholic church may openly teach the above, but many protestants believe it in the practical reality of their lives

I mean to say the Catholic Church does not teach that- they openly believe that a mortal sin can defuse one's salvation.
Eternal Security is a Calvinist doctrine.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I mean to say the Catholic Church does not teach that- they openly believe that a mortal sin can defuse one's salvation.
Eternal Security is a Protestant doctrine.

It may be official protestant doctrinal belief, but many protestants don't actually believe it. Most I would say in my experience

 

[stuart lawrence]

I mean to say the Catholic Church does not teach that- they openly believe that a mortal sin can defuse one's salvation.
Eternal Security is a Calvinist doctrine.

The minister of one church I belonged to, told me privately he believed in once saved always saved, eternal seucrity, but he also told me, and I quote:

I can't preach that from the pulpit for obvious reasons

 

[HighCherub]

It may be official protestant doctrinal belief, but many protestants don't actually believe it. Most I would say in my experience

Most traditionally Protestant churches hold to Eternal Security. You won't find a Presbyterian, Baptist, or Reformed church against it.
Not any that are properly so anyway.
Even Methodists for that matter, though I personally don't agree with Methodism.

Pretty much you just have the Lutherans, which I don't think was always the case. I think they largely reinvented their former concept of such after their relatively recent truce with the Roman Church.

 

[1stcenturylady]

the law doesn't give you passion to sin, it exposes your passion to sin

That is called the flesh which cannot please God, but we are NOT in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ is in us.

Romans 8:8-9

 

[Dan61861]

Lust/ sexual desire is a basic instinct of man. But the more excited you get at the thought of it, the less your ability to resist those thoughts. The more those thoughts will grow and dominate your life.
If you believe obeying the TC is what decides the highest stakes battle of your life, the excitement stirred in you when you think of coveting will Simply grow and grow

I totally agree with this, absolutely without doubt.

What I disagree with is that the law is the cause of it. The law isn't giving me passion to sin. The law is exposing the passion to sin that is already present.

Thankfully we have Christ and His passion towards us.

If you said to me, Dan don't look at inappropriate content or you will go to hell. If I turn around and look at inappropriate content, your words didn't cause me to do it. Your words exposes the lusts I already have. Your words convict me, I broke your rule, I suffer it's punishment.

Let's look at Eve, one commandment do not eat of the tree or you will die. The commandment didn't ca use her to eat from the tree. The commandment brought to lite her passion to sin. It exposed her lusts of the flesh, it exposed her lusts of the eyes and it exposed her pride of life.

A simple command, do not eat of the tree brought forth her wretchedness. The fault was in her not in the command.

It's why you and I stand firmly against sinless perfection. It is like returning to the garden. Christ righteousness isn't sufficient.

The pride of life, i am righteous like Christ was righteous.
Lust of the eyes, the appearance of holiness before men.
Lust of the flesh, I have cleansed my flesh of all sin.

Each one has taken from Christ and placed it onto themselves.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

That is called the flesh which cannot please God, but we are NOT in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ is in us.

Romans 8:8-9

I thought we were talking about when we were under the law? You are right though, the flesh can never please God. We will be given new bodies that will please God though, Paul and John say this.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

The minister of one church I belonged to, told me privately he believed in once saved always saved, eternal seucrity, but he also told me, and I quote:

I can't preach that from the pulpit for obvious reasons

Sad..

 

[Dan61861]

Stuart, I have a great deal of respect towards you. I know, you are my brother in Christ and always will be.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[1stcenturylady]

I thought we were talking about when we were under the law? You are right though, the flesh can never please God. We will be given new bodies that will please God though, Paul and John say this.

In Christ
Daniel

Regarding the law, yes, it's still Romans 7 and 8. But even though we will be given new bodies, that is not what Romans 8:9 meant. Is that was you thought it meant, that even with the Holy Spirit in us we are still in our old carnal self - the flesh. The flesh there is talking about our lustful character which can never please God, but Paul just wanted to make sure we didn't think these bodies of ours won't die. Yes they will, and we will receive new bodies, but the Spirit makes us not sin. But only those who have the living God indwelling them. That is like a test whether we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Do we hate sin, and love what is good? Has our character taken a drastic change for the better, and is still getting stronger and stronger every year of life? Another test which proves whether we are "abiding" in Jesus or not is if our prayers are answered. Read through 1 John 3:

1 John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

The Outworking of Love
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.