The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[1stcenturylady]

I totally agree with this, absolutely without doubt.

What I disagree with is that the law is the cause of it. The law isn't giving me passion to sin. The law is exposing the passion to sin that is already present.

Thankfully we have Christ and His passion towards us.

If you said to me, Dan don't look at inappropriate content or you will go to hell. If I turn around and look at inappropriate content, your words didn't cause me to do it. Your words exposes the lusts I already have. Your words convict me, I broke your rule, I suffer it's punishment.

Let's look at Eve, one commandment do not eat of the tree or you will die. The commandment didn't ca use her to eat from the tree. The commandment brought to lite her passion to sin. It exposed her lusts of the flesh, it exposed her lusts of the eyes and it exposed her pride of life.

A simple command, do not eat of the tree brought forth her wretchedness. The fault was in her not in the command.

It's why you and I stand firmly against sinless perfection. It is like returning to the garden. Christ righteousness isn't sufficient.

The pride of life, i am righteous like Christ was righteous.
Lust of the eyes, the appearance of holiness before men.
Lust of the flesh, I have cleansed my flesh of all sin.

Each one has taken from Christ and placed it onto themselves.

In Christ
Daniel

Don't be fooled. Obey the apostles.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I totally agree with this, absolutely without doubt.

What I disagree with is that the law is the cause of it. The law isn't giving me passion to sin. The law is exposing the passion to sin that is already present.

Thankfully we have Christ and His passion towards us.

If you said to me, Dan don't look at inappropriate content or you will go to hell. If I turn around and look at inappropriate content, your words didn't cause me to do it. Your words exposes the lusts I already have. Your words convict me, I broke your rule, I suffer it's punishment.

Let's look at Eve, one commandment do not eat of the tree or you will die. The commandment didn't ca use her to eat from the tree. The commandment brought to lite her passion to sin. It exposed her lusts of the flesh, it exposed her lusts of the eyes and it exposed her pride of life.

A simple command, do not eat of the tree brought forth her wretchedness. The fault was in her not in the command.

It's why you and I stand firmly against sinless perfection. It is like returning to the garden. Christ righteousness isn't sufficient.

The pride of life, i am righteous like Christ was righteous.
Lust of the eyes, the appearance of holiness before men.
Lust of the flesh, I have cleansed my flesh of all sin.

Each one has taken from Christ and placed it onto themselves.

In Christ
Daniel

For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused in us by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom7:5
Every human has a sinfull nature, and that nature instinctively desires to break the law of God, otherwise it would not be a sinfull nature. And if you knew nothing of Gods laws, you would still break them and desire to.
But if you have a religion where you do not have the truth. If you rely on observing the law, and not the unfailing love of God for you, then sin, through the commandment arouses, to a far greater extent sinfull passions in you, than would otherwise be the case if you were not trying to attain heaven by observing the law.
I have been told that half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to churches described as holiness churches. That I can easily believe. People joined these churches and did not rely on a righteousness of faith in Christ, but a righteousness of observing the law. Many sinfull passions, were then aroused in them by sin through the law. Or, sinfull passions were aroused in them to a far greater extent because they sought righteousness of observing the law

 

[stuart lawrence]

The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56.

If you feed on sins power, sin will grow stronger in you, that is inevitable

 

[Dan61861]

1stcenturylady, the Lord called Abel righteous. In the story of Cain and Abel, what did he do that made him righteous?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

I agree, this is why I feel strongly that the law does not cause us to sin, but brings to light our wretchedness.

I have endured temptation and come to the knowledge of what I am. Christ has died for our sins, by His blood I am cleansed. I cleave unto Him and His righteousness. I add nothing to His passion, especially my own righteousness. He is magnified, not I. I rest in Him, the work is done. What God has begun in me, He will finish.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused in us by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom7:5
Every human has a sinfull nature, and that nature instinctively desires to break the law of God, otherwise it would not be a sinfull nature. And if you knew nothing of Gods laws, you would still break them and desire to.
But if you have a religion where you do not have the truth. If you rely on observing the law, and not the unfailing love of God for you, then sin, through the commandment arouses, to a far greater extent sinfull passions in you, than would otherwise be the case if you were not trying to attain heaven by observing the law.
I have been told that half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to churches described as holiness churches. That I can easily believe. People joined these churches and did not rely on a righteousness of faith in Christ, but a righteousness of observing the law. Many sinfull passions, were then aroused in them by sin through the law. Or, sinfull passions were aroused in them to a far greater extent because they sought righteousness of observing the law

I agree with you completely. The law is bringing out their sin. It isn't the cause of their sin?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

I agree with you completely. The law is bringing out their sin. It isn't the cause of their sin?

In Christ
Daniel

Your sin can be brought out without you having the law. The law though makes you conscious you are a sinner:

For I would not have known lust except the law had said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:7

How was all manner of concupiscence aroused/ wrought in saul?
By sin alone?
No! By sin through the commandment
Many sinfull passions were aroused in Saul the pharisee by sin through the comnandment

 

[Dan61861]

For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused in us by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom7:5
Every human has a sinfull nature, and that nature instinctively desires to break the law of God, otherwise it would not be a sinfull nature. And if you knew nothing of Gods laws, you would still break them and desire to.
But if you have a religion where you do not have the truth. If you rely on observing the law, and not the unfailing love of God for you, then sin, through the commandment arouses, to a far greater extent sinfull passions in you, than would otherwise be the case if you were not trying to attain heaven by observing the law.
I have been told that half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to churches described as holiness churches. That I can easily believe. People joined these churches and did not rely on a righteousness of faith in Christ, but a righteousness of observing the law. Many sinfull passions, were then aroused in them by sin through the law. Or, sinfull passions were aroused in them to a far greater extent because they sought righteousness of observing the law

In fact, I believe Cain is evidence of this. He offered the Lord the works of his hands. It went downhill from there. It's why I asked Jason for a list of perfect men or men who claimed perfection. They are filled with sin.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

In fact, I believe Cain is evidence of this. He offered the Lord the works of his hands. It went downhill from there. It's why I asked Jason for a list of perfect men or men who claimed perfection. They are filled with sin.

In Christ
Daniel

Absolutely:

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for NO ONE living is( truly) righteous before you
Psalms143:2

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is a basic instinct to man, to try and make himself good enough by his works to receive reward
However
Gods thoughts are far higher than man's thoughts, and so are his ways

 

[Dan61861]

Your sin can be brought out without you having the law. The law though makes you conscious you are a sinner:

For I would not have known lust except the law had said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:7

How was all manner of concupiscence aroused/ wrought in saul?
By sin alone?
No! By sin through the commandment
Many sinfull passions were aroused in Saul the pharisee by sin through the comnandment

Rom 7:7 is reaffirming Rom 20, the law brings to light that we are sinners. As Job said "I am vile"

Kjv Rom 7:5 puts it a little different. For when we were in the flesh, the motion of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

I gotta tell you, putting the three together. The law isn't the cause of sin, the law exposes the sin within us. It brings us to the knowledge of our wretchedness. Which points us to Christ our savior.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Sorry, phone....that is Rom 3:20

 

[stuart lawrence]

Rom 7:7 is reaffirming Rom 20, the law brings to light that we are sinners. As Job said "I am vile"

Kjv Rom 7:5 puts it a little different. For when we were in the flesh, the motion of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

I gotta tell you, putting the three together. The law isn't the cause of sin, the law exposes the sin within us. It brings us to the knowledge of our wretchedness. Which points us to Christ our savior.

In Christ
Daniel

Let's agree to disagree. Having made our points we will just end up going round in circles if we continue this

 

[Dan61861]

Don't you think this would also go with the Law being our tutor? Bringing us to the knowledge of our sinfulness and the need for our savior?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Let's agree to disagree. Having made our points we will just end up going round in circles if we continue this

I can definitely agree to that, enjoyed it non the less. Helps us learn and understand.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Don't you think this would also go with the Law being our tutor? Bringing us to the knowledge of our sinfulness and the need for our savior?

In Christ
Daniel

I will make one last point, then I really believe it would be better if we agree to differ on this issue.

In rom 3:20 paul states the law reveals sin/ makes us conscious of sin
In rom7:7 he wrote of all manner of sin/ concupiscence being aroused in him through the commandment.

Two different things
One is being conscious of sin, the other of sin being aroused, or made manifest in him

 

[stuart lawrence]

Don't you think this would also go with the Law being our tutor? Bringing us to the knowledge of our sinfulness and the need for our savior?

In Christ
Daniel

I would definitely agree with the above. For as tobeloved said yesterday. The law reveals our unrighteousness/ sin, we cannot become righteous by striving to obey it. The pass mark is too high. 100 percent perfect obedience, no slip ups!

 

[Dan61861]

I would definitely agree with the above. For as tobeloved said yesterday. The law reveals our unrighteousness/ sin, we cannot become righteous by striving to obey it. The pass mark is too high. 100 percent perfect obedience, no slip ups!

Brother, we completely agree. I do have a lot of respect for you. Let's fight the good fight, for the sake of truth. Jesus and Him crucified, the gospel we both hold dear.

Cleave unto Christ forevermore
Daniel

 

[stuart lawrence]

Brother, we completely agree. I do have a lot of respect for you. Let's fight the good fight, for the sake of truth. Jesus and Him crucified, the gospel we both hold dear.

Cleave unto Christ forevermore
Daniel

I much appreciate the truth you, and tobeloved bring to this thread also. It helps sustains me, in the face if opposition to it.
God bless

 

[stuart lawrence]

Brother, we completely agree. I do have a lot of respect for you. Let's fight the good fight, for the sake of truth. Jesus and Him crucified, the gospel we both hold dear.

Cleave unto Christ forevermore
Daniel

BTW.
I often think Paul and James may have had many robust discussions let's say. Yet James still considered Paul a wise and beloved brother. They both ultimately followed the same gospel message, but at times viewed it from different perspectives is the best way I can put it