The Doctrines Of Grace

[catzrfluffy]

What? Verses 15 and 21 clearly state that the Moabite men were already there, had called upon him, and that he went with them.

Also, I thought "Balaam's error," in the context of Jude's epistle, was a reference to him being a sorcerer, and him being ambitious, selfish, etc. were negative qualities which the false teachers shared with him.

I got it from the commentaries, Numbers 22:22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.. (further down page)

 

[Tzaousios]

Tell me why Gods anger rose against Balaam when Balaam was only doing what God commanded him to do? this makes no sense to me at all and in fact I find its only making me more bitter inside.

I just finished telling you that God does not operate on human conceptions of "fairness." The focus should be on giving glory to God because he defines what is right by the counsel of his will alone. That his sovereign plan is carried out is what matters, not that the self-perceived rights of human beings are "respected."

RobertZ, I think everyone here who has interacted with you can think of a time time where they did not understand God's will and the magnanimity of his sovereignty. Perhaps they can even think of times when they were not able to believe it or even rebelled against it. But in time God gave them the grace to understand what they needed to understand. The same can be done for you no doubt.

 

[Vince53]

Meanwhile, getting back to St. Augustine <staff edit>:

In support of their error that God does not want everyone to be saved, Calvinists teach that God commands all men to turn to Him, while making it impossible for them to do so. Later, He condemns them for not doing the impossible.

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men....
7 The same [John the Baptist] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Tzaousios]

I got it from the commentaries, Numbers 22:22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.. (further down page)

Ah, I see. Sorry, but I am afraid that I do not agree with Wesley's commentary. No offense.

 

[RobertZ]

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

And when that light goes out its over.

 

[Tzaousios]

Meanwhile, getting back to St. Augustine <staff edit>:

In support of their error that God does not want everyone to be saved, Calvinists teach that God commands all men to turn to Him, while making it impossible for them to do so. Later, He condemns them for not doing the impossible.

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men....
7 The same [John the Baptist] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

What are you talking about? This does not even begin to engage my reply in post #150. Instead, you seem to be interested in slinging mud at Calvinists, Augustinians, and Catholics.

Please quote the specific points in my post #150 and reply to those.

 

[RobertZ]

If you guys could see how I lived the past 10yrs and then compare it to the way I was brought up with all the light I was exposed to I think everyone here would agree that God gave me over to a reprobate mind.


I looked at porn every single day sometimes for hours on end with no guilt or feelings of remorse, I cursed like a sailor and I had murder in my heart. Going to church no longer had an effect on me, the preacher would be preaching and I got to the point that I didnt even hear what he was saying any longer, nor did I have any concern about it at all.


So yes, its hard for me not to believe that God didnt give me over to a reprobate mind, I had the priviledge of getting more light than most and I threw it away like an idiot.

 

[mlqurgw]

If you guys could see how I lived the past 10yrs and then compare it to the way I was brought up with all the light I was exposed to I think everyone here would agree that God gave me over to a reprobate mind.


I looked at porn every single day sometimes for hours on end with no guilt or feelings of remorse, I cursed like a sailor and I had murder in my heart. Going to church no longer had an effect on me, the preacher would be preaching and I got to the point that I didnt even hear what he was saying any longer, nor did I have any concern about it at all.


So yes, its hard for me not to believe that God didnt give me over to a reprobate mind, I had the priviledge of getting more light than most and I threw it away like an idiot.

What is it that you want from us Robert? If you want us to convince you that you are saved why do you refuse to listen to every one who tries to convince you? Do you want our sympothy? You got it. Do you want us to convince you that you are beyond salvation? I would be happy to oblige if I really thought that was the case. But I don't. I am at a point that I don't know what to say to you any longer. Either trust Christ or don't.

 

[nobdysfool]

Meanwhile, getting back to St. Augustine and his false religion:

Let's tone down the rhetoric here, brother. You have a right to believe that "St. Augustine's religion" is a false religion, but it is your opinion, not necessarily fact. To state it as a fact without supporting evidence is to call into question the very salvation of those who consider St. Augustine to be correct. There are those who believe your particular viewpoint to be false religion. Would you stand still for them saying such without evidence and with no protest? I think not.

In support of their error that God does not want everyone to be saved, Calvinists teach that God commands all men to turn to Him, while making it impossible for them to do so. Later, He condemns them for not doing the impossible.

Firstly, you are mis-stating the teaching. God chooses not to save every individual. Tthat much is a self-evident fact, because not all are saved. That's not even arguable. Secondly, it is not God who is " making it impossible for them to turn to Him". It is their sinful hearts, which prevent them from doing so. God does not stand in the way of any man who desires to be saved. But it is not within man to turn unless the Father draws him and gives him to Christ. Jesus said "No man can come to me, except the Father draw him." Earlier in the same chapter of John, chapter 6, Jesus equates coming to Him with believing in Him, so it is perfectly biblical to say that no man can believe in Christ unless the Father draws him, and gives him to Christ. Therefore, man's believing does not depend on his own self-actuated free will, but on God, who draws him and gives him to Christ, not on the basis of the man's actions, but on the basis of God's actions.

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men....
7 The same [John the Baptist] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Taken the way you want to see this passage, you cannot logically avoid Universalism, because if it is that light which God uses to draw and give the man to Jesus, then based on the fact that Jesus stated that such drawing and giving never fails to result in salvation, then according to your interpretation, every man MUST be saved. Have you really thought about what it is you're saying here?

 

[mlqurgw]

Meanwhile, getting back to St. Augustine and his false religion:

In support of their error that God does not want everyone to be saved, Calvinists teach that God commands all men to turn to Him, while making it impossible for them to do so. Later, He condemns them for not doing the impossible.

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men....
7 The same [John the Baptist] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You are reading into that passage your ideas rather than interpreting according to context. The context is John showing that Christ is God. The passage is simply confirming that Christ is God and the life of men and the light of the knowledge that God is is in Christ. See Rom. 1:17-20 This is the plain teaching of the passage as is further shown by verse 10 of John 1. I also notice you conveniently left out verse 5. Was it because you knew that it was against what you intended? The passage is not teaching or saying that Christ gives light to all men in order to enable them to believe. If that were the case then the teaching of the Lord in Matt. 6:22,23 would be false.

 

[RobertZ]

Jesus stated that such drawing and giving never fails to result in salvation,

Do you mind showing me this from scripture? Its not that I dont believe you but I would just like scripture.

 

[the particular baptist]

As a matter of fact, it IS impossible for men to turn to God, but God's light extends to them, making it possible:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men....
7 The same [John the Baptist] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Elementary straw man rhetoric aside, this passage in no way teaches universalism, sorry. It would help if you quoted further into the text, then take it to its logical conclusion, God is sovereign;

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Now, it is crystal clear not all are born again. Likewise, it is crystal clear the ones that by the grace of God have been born again, have been born not of the flesh or the will of man, but of God.


.

 

[the particular baptist]

Do you mind showing me this from scripture? Its not that I dont believe you but I would just like scripture.

Robert, its in John 6 and John 17.

 

[mlqurgw]

Do you mind showing me this from scripture? Its not that I dont believe you but I would just like scripture.

(Joh 6:36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(Joh 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(Joh 6:38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


(Joh 6:43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(Joh 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(Joh 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(Joh 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[catzrfluffy]

If you guys could see how I lived the past 10yrs and then compare it to the way I was brought up with all the light I was exposed to I think everyone here would agree that God gave me over to a reprobate mind.

I looked at porn every single day sometimes for hours on end with no guilt or feelings of remorse, I cursed like a sailor and I had murder in my heart. Going to church no longer had an effect on me, the preacher would be preaching and I got to the point that I didnt even hear what he was saying any longer, nor did I have any concern about it at all.

So yes, its hard for me not to believe that God didnt give me over to a reprobate mind, I had the priviledge of getting more light than most and I threw it away like an idiot.

Being brought up Christian then turning away doesn't make one reprobate, there are many who forsook childhood Christianity then God brought them back, children are below the age of accountablity.

Also, there is no amount of sinfulness that Christ's blood cannot cover:

"I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Timothy 1:12-17)

 

[RobertZ]

I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance

Paul sinned in ignorance and that is why he was shown mercy. He wasnt someone who was exposed to a great amount of light such as I was and then turned his back and sinned willfully with full knowledge that his sins were wrong.

The Bible doesnt speak very favorably of presumptuos sinning and in fact the penalty for presumptuos sinning was death.

 

[student ad x]

Robert, my dear brother..... The Lord giving one over to a depraved mind for a season is not the same as being given over to a reprobate mind. If you are questioning these things, question them to the Lord......then seek the strength for repentance. There is nothing any of us on these boards at CF can do to ease your conscious, you can only seek the Lord for peace.

humbly,
Cam

 

[Jazmyn]

Paul sinned in ignorance and that is why he was shown mercy. He wasnt someone who was exposed to a great amount of light such as I was and then turned his back and sinned willfully with full knowledge that his sins were wrong.

The Bible doesnt speak very favorably of presumptuos sinning and in fact the penalty for presumptuos sinning was death.

He was a Pharisee all his life beforehand.

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." (Philippians 3:4-9)

You said you weren't saved beforehand.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Robert,

You are in error. Haven't you read my story by now? Many of us on here have testified to you that the Lord Jesus Christ saved us in our 30's or even our 40's, despite us growing up in church and living in rebellion of some degree. The degree of rebellion isn't important. Who is to say your rebellion was "condemning" when ours was not? Do you not believe our stories of salvation after being lost for years and having been saved despite ourselves through the Grace of the Lord Jesus? You need the Faith of a child, and to stop trying to understand ever nuance of doctrine and theology. That was MY problem too. You don't need to understand everything, and some truths won't be completely understood until we all meet again in Heaven. Accept that Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for YOUR sin, and was resurrected to life.

Robert, I read a story in the book "Absolutely Sure" that I want you to think about. Back in the Cold War era, a group of believers met secretly in a factory inside Soviet Russia. One day their worst fears came true. Heavily armed Soviet soldiers broke through the door, aimed their weapons at the crowd, and told them that anyone who would renounce their belief in Jesus Christ would be forgiven and allowed to leave. One by one many members of that group left, until there were a few remaining with the Preacher. As the Soviet soldiers slammed the door shut, the Preacher in tears and shaking told the soldiers to go ahead and open fire, because they were going to heaven. The soldiers then laid down their weapons, and told the believers who remained that they too were believers in Jesus Christ, but they could not take the risk of being caught or their families would also be killed. They had driven out all the fake believers so that they could worship with the true ones. Now, in that situation, would you remain in the building with the belief that you were about to die rather than deny your Saviour? If so, for the LAST TIME stop condemning yourself and put all your creative energy into doing something for the Lord Jesus Christ for having saved you! Put your energy into something productive for the Kingdom of God and find out what the Lord is wanting you to do! Perhaps you are being driven by the Holy Spirit, not because you lack Faith, but because you are not using the Faith you have already been given for the calling to which you have been assigned.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

If you guys could see how I lived the past 10yrs and then compare it to the way I was brought up with all the light I was exposed to I think everyone here would agree that God gave me over to a reprobate mind.


I looked at porn every single day sometimes for hours on end with no guilt or feelings of remorse, I cursed like a sailor and I had murder in my heart. Going to church no longer had an effect on me, the preacher would be preaching and I got to the point that I didnt even hear what he was saying any longer, nor did I have any concern about it at all.


So yes, its hard for me not to believe that God didnt give me over to a reprobate mind, I had the priviledge of getting more light than most and I threw it away like an idiot.

Robert, I believe that you need to take your eyes off of what you have done and focus on what Jesus did for you on the cross, and His ability to forgive you and give you a new life of blessed, Christian service. Stop worrying about your future and change your future by refusing to obey the devil and faithfully obeying God and His will for your life as revealed in the Scriptures and by His opening doors for you to serve Him.