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The Doctrines Of Grace

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Jeffwhosoever

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Robertz and JSnell:

I refer you to Galatians 5:22 for a way to determine if you have fruits of the Holy Spirit which a Christian should possess to some degree. You should evaluate yourselves against Scripture, not whether you agree with Calvinism or any other theology.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
 
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nobdysfool

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In order to make their system work, Calvinist philosophers invented the doctrine of irresistible grace. Since the Bible teaches that God gives everyone the power and ability to accept Christ, it was necessary for Calvinists to divide grace into two types: useless grace, in which God pretends to call men to Himself; and irrestistible grace, in which God pretends that people come to Him.

Acts 7:51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Calvinists explain away this verse by saying that God only gave these men phoney grace, and they were not able to receive it. But Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," shows that these men had resisted genuine grace.

Brother, this is the second time I am asking you to tone down the rhetoric, and to deal truthfully with Calvinism and what it teaches, not these inflammatory statements and veiled accusations that you have made. I realize that you may hold some particular animosity toward Calvinism as you imagine it to be, or have been told it is, but that animosity has no place in these discussions.

I also realize the zeal with which Baptists attack that which they believe to be false. Again, amongst brethren, such has no place, and should be set aside. I ask you, for Christ's sake, to abandon such tactics, and speak with respect and brotherly love toward your brethren. for whom Christ has died, and who name the Name of Christ, as you do.
 
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Vince53

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Do our actions win souls?

1 Peter 3:1 ¶Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 
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RobertZ

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22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


I think I can safely answer no to all of these. The harder I try the more bitter and hateful I become, if you guys only knew how horrifying this all is. I know it sounds loony but Im telling you right now I really really am starting to think that it was never intended for me to be saved.

Most of Gods reprobate at least have the pleasure of dying in that state not knowing they are going to hell but to realize that you are reprobate and only get harder and harder in your heart the more you try to come to God is terrible and it has all but ruined my life.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Robert,

What do you mean by "harder in my heart" as well as what do you mean by "more bitter and hateful"? PM me if you don't want to share with the group.
 
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Vince53

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Are the results of soul-winning determined only by irresistible grace? Is disobedience to God's commands to be a witness irrelevant to soul-winning?

1 Peter 3:1 ¶Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he who converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 
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mlqurgw

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Are the results of soul-winning determined only by irresistible grace? Is disobedience to God's commands to be a witness irrelevant to soul-winning?

1 Peter 3:1 ¶Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he who converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Are the results of soulwinning only by irresistible grace? YES THEY ARE! It isn't we who build the Church but Christ who builds His church. Matt. 11:27, 16:17-18.
 
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TimRout

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It's true that Jesus builds His church. How does He do it? He makes us fishers of men.
Believe it or not, I agree with this statement. Where we differ, I should think, is in our characterization of man's contribution to the process.

I believe the Christian preacher is the chief means by which God has decreed to put forth His gospel. Calvinists differ from Hyper-Calvinists, in that we believe God ordains both the ends and the means. Indeed, Calvinists are among the most driven evangelists in church history. Had you thought otherwise?
 
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the particular baptist

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It's true that Jesus builds His church. How does He do it? He makes us fishers of men.

God has ordained to save men primarily through the preaching of the Gospel.
 
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Hammster

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It's true that Jesus builds His church. How does He do it? He makes us fishers of men.



Really what you meant is that He gives us a choice to be fishers of men. If He made us fishers of men, it would violate our free will.

I don't think that God would compel us to do something we wouldn't do naturally. Or would He?
 
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Vince53

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Romans 2:4 gives us another instance in which God's grace draws all men to salvation, but men resist it:

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The entire context shows that Paul is talking to unsaved men, and yet God, in His goodness, is leading them to repentance.
 
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the particular baptist

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Romans 2:4 gives us another instance in which God's grace draws all men to salvation, but men resist it:

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The entire context shows that Paul is talking to unsaved men, and yet God, in His goodness, is leading them to repentance.

Romans 2:4 says no such thing. You are inserting your synergistic presupposition into the text sir. The book of Romans exalts the sovereign grace of God in the salvation of men, to say it does anything less robs God of glory.

I pretty sure Paul was writing to the believers at Rome.
 
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LiveInSpirit

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Really what you meant is that He gives us a choice to be fishers of men. If He made us fishers of men, it would violate our free will.

He has made us "fishers of men" by the very nature of our salvation. If one is reconciled to God and possessed by the Holy Spirit, I don't know how a person can NOT witness to people and in turn become a "fisher of men."

Yes we still have the free will to not talk to certain people at certain times but overall we are constantly witnessing to people both by our mouth and our fruit.


I don't think that God would compel us to do something we wouldn't do naturally. Or would He?

Can you clarify "naturally"? If you mean by our inherent nature, then yes God definitely compels us to do things that are against our sinful nature.
 
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the particular baptist

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"You are inserting your synergistic presupposition into the text sir."


Uhm, no, I'm quoting the Bible.

Indeed you are. You quoted Scripture then proceeded to explain that what it really means is that God is in heaven pleading with sinners to repent, that He is unable to make anyone repent. That is dishonoring to God.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power...

Youre better off just quoting the Bible and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit than to suggest God is at the whim of His creation. I cannot think of anything that robs God of more glory than to suggest His will is at the mercy of the will of men, men who cannot even will away a cold or flu, much less will themselves born again. Good grief.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Originally Posted by Vince53
"Romans 2:4 gives us another instance in which God's grace draws all men to salvation, but men resist it:

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The entire context shows that Paul is talking to unsaved men, and yet God, in His goodness, is leading them to repentance."

Romans 2:4 says no such thing. You are inserting your synergistic presupposition into the text sir. The book of Romans exalts the sovereign grace of God in the salvation of men, to say it does anything less is blasphemous and robs God of glory.

I pretty sure Paul was writing to the believers at Rome.


Romans 2:1. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6. who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7. to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8. but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10. but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11. For there is no partiality with God.
12. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13. for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

I need to say a few words here. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans was written to the church in Rome in either 57 or 58 A.D. This church, at this time, was made up persons with a wide spectrum of beliefs, and Paul, in his epistle, addresses many of those beliefs. Romans chapter two is specifically addressed to judgmental (v.1), stubborn and unrepentant (v.1) Jews (v. 17) whose confidence in their salvation was the Law. They believed in Jesus, but they were clueless regarding Christian theology. Notice that in this chapter, the Law is mentioned 23 times, and grace is not mentioned even once. Notice also that in verse 6 Paul wrote that God “WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS,” quoting from Psalms 62:12 and Proverbs 24:12; and verse 7-8 says that God will render eternal life “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality,” and wrath and indignation “to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,” Paul is, in this chapter, teaching these judgmental, stubborn and unrepentant Jews that they themselves are sinners with no hope of eternal life, “for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” Paul is writing to convict these Jews of their need for salvation, and in chapter three, verse 20, he teaches them that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” He then writes,


3:21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
 
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Hammster

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Romans 2:1. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

2. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.

3. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6. who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7. to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8. but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10. but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11. For there is no partiality with God.

12. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13. for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.



I need to say a few words here. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans was written to the church in Rome in either 57 or 58 A.D. This church, at this time, was made up persons with a wide spectrum of beliefs, and Paul, in his epistle, addresses many of those beliefs. Romans chapter two is specifically addressed to judgmental (v.1), stubborn and unrepentant (v.1) Jews (v. 17) whose confidence in their salvation was the Law. They believed in Jesus, but they were clueless regarding Christian theology. Notice that in this chapter, the Law is mentioned 23 times, and grace is not mentioned even once. Notice also that in verse 6 Paul wrote that God “WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS,” quoting from Psalms 62:12 and Proverbs 24:12; and verse 7-8 says that God will render eternal life “to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality,” and wrath and indignation “to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,” Paul is, in this chapter, teaching these judgmental, stubborn and unrepentant Jews that they themselves are sinners with no hope of eternal life, “for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” Paul is writing to convict these Jews of their need for salvation, and in chapter three, verse 20, he teaches them that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” He then writes,





3:21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)



And all this time I would have thought Romans 1:7 told us who the letter was to.
 
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