The Doctrines Of Grace

[RobertZ]

I admit no such thing, Robert. Neither can I understand how you would conclude as much.

Are you kidding me? Take a look again at what you stated-

But remember, Jesus already knew who would or would not believe in Him [6:64]. With that foreknowledge in mind, the destinies of these Scribes and Pharisees was already sealed.

This is the exact position that us free willer's are defending. You shot yourself in the foot with that comment rather you want to admit it or not.


What you should have said was that Jesus already knew who the father would force to believe in him and who the father would not allow to believe in him.

 

[the particular baptist]

Sorry but I dont believe that we are a bunch of pre programmed robots roaming around the earth, I have personally seen to many times in my life people who were being delt with by the Holy Spirit and yet chose to walk away unconverted and unsaved and I have also provided evidence that this can and does happen.

Experience does not equal truth. The heart is deceitful, especially if a person, like some in my family, are prone to emotional instability. Such a person is in no position of discernment.

Scripture is truth and experience be damned, because the heart is deceitful and out of it comes all sorts of wickedness.

 

[TimRout]

Are you kidding me? Take a look again at what you stated-

This is the exact position that us free willer's are defending. You shot yourself in the foot with that comment rather you want to admit it or not.

Your position: God looked down through the tunnels of time, observed who would freely believe on Christ, and elected them based on this acquired information.

My position: God unconditionally elected all whom He would save, sovereignly established a relationship with them, predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them.

What you should have said was that Jesus already knew who the father would force to believe in him and who the father would not allow to believe in him.

Again Robert, this sort of argumentation demonstrates your utter miscomprehension of the Calvinist position. God forces no one to believe. All who come to faith in Christ do so willingly, having been made willing by the regeneration of their spirits [Ez. 3:26]. Enough with the straw men, already!

 

[RobertZ]

Your position: God looked down through the tunnels of time, observed who would freely believe on Christ, and elected them based on this acquired information.

My position: God unconditionally elected all whom He would save, sovereignly established a relationship with them, predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them.

And yet Tim you are failing to see how your previous statement showed more support towards my position than yours.

 

[RobertZ]

Again Robert, this sort of argumentation demonstrates your utter miscomprehension of the Calvinist position.

No, I understand completely what your saying, I just dont agree with it.

God forces no one to believe.

Great, now we are agreeing.

Enough with the straw men, already!

Im not strawmaning Tim, turning up the heat a bit in hopes of coming to a conclusion? yes I am.

 

[the particular baptist]

One of the key errors of Calvinism is the doctrine that God only wants certain people to be saved. The Bible, however, tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life."

Mr Vince, who is Peter writing to ? 2Peter 1:1-3 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Does not sound like he is writing to the lost, but to the saved. So, what does Peter mean when he said; "but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life." Did he mean every person that ever lived and will live ? What Peter meant was that all the elect to come to saving knowledge. What do we say of the jungle savages that will die tonight in their sins without Christ ? Is there anything more special about us who have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and them ? NO ! We must give the glory to God, it is His sovereign grace alone. Christ did not ransom every person that ever lived, else He failed miserably. What does John say in the Revelation of Jesus Christ ? (The same John that wrote of the marvelous sovereign grace of God in the gospel of John) This is what is called Particular Redemption, and is the greatest revelation to which the lessers must bow;

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




.

 

[Hammster]

Are you kidding me? Take a look again at what you stated-









This is the exact position that us free willer's are defending. You shot yourself in the foot with that comment rather you want to admit it or not.





What you should have said was that Jesus already knew who the father would force to believe in him and who the father would not allow to believe in him.

Could it be that Jesus knew who would and would not believe in Him because He knew those whom He elected?

 

[RobertZ]

Could it be that Jesus knew who would and would not believe in Him because He knew those whom He elected?

Possibly and if that is the case then how can anyone argue that God does not force salvation on anyone? If you are pre elected to salvation then you have no choice but to believe.

Adam And Eve are the best example of free will. God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and what did Adam and Eve do?

I seriously doubt God commanded them not to eat of that tree and then somehow overrode his commandment causing them to disobey and eat of of the tree.

 

[Tzaousios]

Adam And Eve are the best example of free will.

You are not considering the spiritual condition of the human race before and after the Fall. Yes, perhaps Adam and Eve did have more freedom of will then their descendents. After all, they were in direct communion with God.

However, at some point they did begin to turn and disobeyed the command of God. The exercised their freedom of choice to sin and thus suffered the penalties of being thrown from Eden and suffering death. The human race after them suffers from a severely damaged nature (including the faculty of the will), the predisposed desire to sin, and the suffering of physical and spiritual death apart from the grace of God.

God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and what did Adam and Eve do? I seriously doubt God commanded them not to eat of that tree and then somehow overrode his commandment causing them to disobey and eat of of the tree.

Are you so sure that God did not do this? How do you explain God's commanding and punishing of Balaam?

Numbers 22:20-22

20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.

 

[Hammster]

Possibly and if that is the case then how can anyone argue that God does not force salvation on anyone? If you are pre elected to salvation then you have no choice but to believe.



Adam And Eve are the best example of free will. God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and what did Adam and Eve do?



I seriously doubt God commanded them not to eat of that tree and then somehow overrode his commandment causing them to disobey and eat of of the tree.

And like Tim said earlier, you prove from this statement that you do not understand the Reformed position. You once again created a straw-man that you feel you can easily knock down.

 

[JacobHall86]

Tim, it is true that all whom the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him. The Father knew before the foundation of the world who would accept Christ, and He chose to save them.

Yea, that means they did something to earn Salvation. Which is works based salvation, which means your views of Justification are Roman Catholic.

 

[Tzaousios]

If it is true that the “Scriptures clearly teach that God's saving grace is irresistible,” why is it that until “The Doctrines of Grace” (a euphemism for Calvinism) was first taught in the 16th century, we have no record of anyone at all understanding John 6:37 (or any other passage from the Bible) to teach that God's saving grace is irresistible? Indeed, very many taught to the contrary.

It is on this historical and theological presupposition, that the doctrines of grace "were first taught in the 16th century" and that no one before then considered divine grace irresistable, that your entire argument descends into error.

Are you familiar with the late 4th and 5th century writings of Augustine of Hippo? From about 396 to his death in 432, Augustine unabashedly declared the sovereignty of God in salvation, the inability of man to desire the things of God, and the irresistability of divine grace. For starters, try reading his letter to the bishop Simplicianus, De diuersis quaestionibus ad Simplicianum. In this letter Augustine embarks on an extensive exegesis of Romans 7-9, in which he departs from the standard moralizing reading of Romans of the previous church fathers and instead sides entirely with Paul.

 

[Hammster]

Yea, that means they did something to earn Salvation. Which is works based salvation, which means your views of Justification are Roman Catholic.

Or at least merit based. We do something good in order to receive something in return.

 

[RobertZ]

I will take some time to let all of this soak in guys, im just trying to get to the root of things because im still undecided on which position I stand on regarding this subject.

Yes I know I can be argumentative but please understand that I mean no harm by it, it helps me to get a deeper understanding of where some of you are coming from.

 

[Hammster]

I will take some time to let all of this soak in guys, im just trying to get to the root of things because im still undecided on which position I stand on regarding this subject.



Yes I know I can be argumentative but please understand that I mean no harm by it, it helps me to get a deeper understanding of where some of you are coming from.

I can completely understand.

 

[the particular baptist]

I will take some time to let all of this soak in guys, im just trying to get to the root of things because im still undecided on which position I stand on regarding this subject.

Yes I know I can be argumentative but please understand that I mean no harm by it, it helps me to get a deeper understanding of where some of you are coming from.

Me too Robert. A.W. Pink has written some wonderful stuff from the sovereign grace view if you care to look into it. All his stuff is free to read online here.

 

[Tzaousios]

I will take some time to let all of this soak in guys, im just trying to get to the root of things because im still undecided on which position I stand on regarding this subject.

Yes I know I can be argumentative but please understand that I mean no harm by it, it helps me to get a deeper understanding of where some of you are coming from.

No problem Robert. When you get the chance, I am interested to know your thoughts on my reply to you in post #129. Thanks.

 

[RobertZ]

Its just that things like Jesus warning others about Hell over and over again and to avoid it at all cost just makes no sense to me at all if a person does not have a free will to choose his eternal destiny.

I mean why would he even waste his time on these warnings if peoples eternal destinies were already sealed anyway?

 

[RobertZ]

No problem Robert. When you get the chance, I am interested to know your thoughts on my reply to you in post #129. Thanks.

Im not sure what my thoughts are yet, im pretty overwhelmed right about now. lol.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I'd like to know which denominations besides Roman Catholics subscribe to the "Free Will" side of theology. I understand there is a "Free Will" Baptist church, and I know the Methodists tend to support free will. Where do the other congregations stand, such as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopaleans, Church of Christ, Pentecostals, etc. in general? Yes, I myself am a Southern Baptist and I take the position of Pastor Tim and others, but I'm curious who supports the free will/Arminian position.