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The Doctrines Of Grace

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RobertZ

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Assuming you aren't arguing for universalism (in which God draws everyone to Christ), the only logical reading of this verse leaves us with:
God does draw all men to Christ and the scripture even states this, its just that not everyone who is drawn will choose to accept and believe.


a) The inability of the natural man to come to Christ.-Which is why The Holy Spirit enlightens the mind of the unregenerate.

b) The causal agent (the Father) who draws a person to Christ.-Yes, through Holy Spirit conviction.


And that, my friend, is what we call Irresistible Grace.


If its irresistible then why was I able to provide two examples of personal testimonies of people who stated that they resisted the Holy Spirit up until they finally got their last call from him?

Also if the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted then what is the point of this warning in Hebrews?

Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

These are people who are so so so very close to salvation and then turn and walk away from it. If this grace was irresistible then their would be no point for this passage of scripture in Hebrews.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Hi Vince,

I'm afraid I must disagree with your conclusion. The Scriptures clearly teach that God's saving grace is irresistible. Consider the following text:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." [Jn. 6:37/NASB]

Notice two things. Firstly, while proponents of free often like to write their presuppositional tradition into this passage, the text literally stipulates that all whom the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Him. Secondly, all who come to Christ will be received by Him. The giving of the Father precedes and causes the coming of the people.


My dear readers,

If it is true that the “Scriptures clearly teach that God's saving grace is irresistible,” why is it that until “The Doctrines of Grace” (a euphemism for Calvinism) was first taught in the 16th century, we have no record of anyone at all understanding John 6:37 (or any other passage from the Bible) to teach that God's saving grace is irresistible? Indeed, very many taught to the contrary.

It is true that “the text literally stipulates that all whom the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Him,” but this does not even remotely suggest that “God’s saving grace is irresistible.”

Luke 12:34. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Jesus himself says here very plainly that God's saving grace is not only resistible, but that it was resisted by the city of Jerusalem. God had not given them to Jesus, so they did not come to Him. All who come to Jesus will be received by Him, but the multitudes who resist God's saving grace will not come to Him, and hence they will not be received by Him.

But what does it mean to be given to Jesus by the Father? The Father, upon our choosing to believe in Jesus by our own free will, gives us to Jesus. The city of Jerusalem chose not to believe in Jesus, consequently it was not given to Jesus.

Then again, a little further down the page:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." [Jn. 6:44/NASB]

Assuming you aren't arguing for universalism (in which God draws everyone to Christ), the only logical reading of this verse leaves us with:

a) The inability of the natural man to come to Christ.
b) The causal agent (the Father) who draws a person to Christ.
c) The salvation in Christ of every person whom the Father draws.

And that, my friend, is what we call Irresistible Grace. All whom the Father gives to the Son will be saved. All whom the Father draws to the Son will be saved. While synergists often argue that God draws everyone, and those who choose to respond are then given to Christ, this position is unsupportable in the context of John 6.

a) The natural man comes to Christ by faith when the Father draws him.
b) No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, making the preaching of the gospel vital to the salvation of men. When men hear the gospel, they are drawn to Christ by the Father through the ministry of the Holy Spirit; some men yield to the drawing and come to Christ, others resist and do not come.
c) This verse does not even remotely suggest that every person who the Father draws to Christ yields to the drawing resulting in his salvation. Indeed, “many are called, but few are chosen.”


Consider the efficacious preaching of Paul and Barnabas:

"For so the Lord has commanded us,
'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Who among the Gentiles were saved at the preaching of Paul's gospel? Those who had been appointed unto eternal life. And by what means were they saved? Faith alone --- they believed. Again brother, irresistible grace.


I'll stop there and give you a chance to respond.

Reading the words of the New Testament in context is important to their correct interpretation.

Acts 13:44. The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47. "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.' "
48. When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49. And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.
50. But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
51. But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.
52. And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.


The preaching of Paul and Barnabas here in Acts 13 is indeed efficacious in the case of the Gentiles; but it was not efficacious in the case of the Jews. Both heard the gospel; the Jews resisted it; the Gentiles yielded to it. Was the Father not, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, tugging at the hearts of the Jews for their salvation? Of course He was, for God does not desire for anyone to perish.

2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
 
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Vince53

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Tim, it is true that all whom the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him. The Father knew before the foundation of the world who would accept Christ, and He chose to save them. He made no errors in His knowledge. He gave them to Christ, wrote their names in the Book of life, predestined them to be adopted as sons and to be conformed to Christ's image.

But the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. The doctrine that God has a useless grace and an irresistible grace is not taught in the Bible. Taking the same Greek word, and giving it a different meaning when it contradicts your beliefs is a bad way to study the Bible.
 
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Vince53

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In Romans 8:28-30, Paul explains God's eternal plan for His saints. Before the foundation of the world, God knew who would repent and believe. He predestined those people to be conformed someday to the image of Jesus. He worked in their lives, so that everything that happened to them ultimately worked out for their good.

Since we are predestined to be made like Christ, we cannot lose our salvation. And we cannot simply turn our backs on Christ after we have accepted Him. Nor will God abandon us after we have accepted Him.
 
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Hammster

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In Romans 8:28-30, Paul explains God's eternal plan for His saints. Before the foundation of the world, God knew who would repent and believe. He predestined those people to be conformed someday to the image of Jesus. He worked in their lives, so that everything that happened to them ultimately worked out for their good.



Since we are predestined to be made like Christ, we cannot lose our salvation. And we cannot simply turn our backs on Christ after we have accepted Him. Nor will God abandon us after we have accepted Him.



Taking this one step at a time, you state that God knows all who will repent and believe. While I don't have issue with that, where do you find that in this passage?
 
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TimRout

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An Expositional Response

The Origins Of "Irresistible Grace"
It remains the position of conservative Calvinists that our authority lies in the Scriptures alone. Therefore, we will proceed on the basis that John the Apostle held the view that God's saving grace is irresistible, even if the nomenclature is absent from his texts.

Exposition [Jn. 6:26-47/NASB]
(v26) Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled."

Up to this point in the text, the casual observer might be tempted to think that the Lord Jesus Christ had gained for Himself quite the following. The chapter opens with the feeding of the 5000, and just prior to this section a large crowd from that gathering had followed Him a great distance, earnestly desiring to be near Him. There are few Pastors from few seeker sensitive churches that wouldn't be thrilled to garner such a response. Verse 14 indicates the people even pondered if Jesus were a Prophet. Yet by the end of this very chapter, all but the twelve had turned away (v66).

Notice the Lord's words to the crowd who followed Him:
"...you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled." The Son of God, who knows the hearts of all men and who knew from the beginning who did not truly believe in Him (v64), cuts through their pious pretenses and gets down to the heart of the issue.

(v27) "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

The Lord immediately shifts the focus of the conversation from what the people want (more food), to what God wants (the revelation of His saving Son). And being the well trained religionists they were, the more verbal among them took a bite.

(v28-29) Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Here we see that Christ is not teaching a works based theology, but is in fact pointing people away from reliance on their own efforts, and toward saving faith in Him. Thus justification is by faith alone, in Christ alone. But Jesus doesn't get the sort of response that many evangelicals would hope for.

(v30-31) So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"

To the Jewish mind, there was no greater Prophet than Moses. However, in getting their backs up and presenting such a challenge, the crowd are revealing their true heart condition. They don't actually believe --- not in any saving sense. Their attention is focused on the things of man, rather than the things of God. And so, Jesus corrects them.

(v32-33) Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

There are few things more infuriating than having one's world view challenged. The Jews looked to great human heroes of the faith for their guidance and encouragement, completely forgetting that these men were mere servants of Yahweh. Notice the change in tense from past ("who has given") to present ("who gives"). While manna was a type of things to come, the antitype had arrived from heaven to bring life to the world. Remember, this whole conversation is ultimately about eternal life.

(v34-36) Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe."

Here, the two verbs "comes" and "believes" are equated. That is, to come to Jesus is the same thing as believing in Jesus. And now, standing before their eyes, is the literal manna from heaven; yet despite this, they do not believe. Don't miss that detail. Even though they have followed Jesus for a great distance, they have not "come to Him" in any salvific sense. But why? They had heard His magnificent preaching. They had eaten the miraculously multiplied loaves and fish. And now they were hearing the gospel straight from the lips of the Son of God...and yet they disbelieved. Why?

And here is the Lord's answer:
(v37-39) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Notice that the giving of the Father precedes the coming of the called. Notice also that everyone whom the Father gives to the Son will come to Him, and will be raised up on the last day. None whom the Father gives to the Son will be lost. While synergists often argue that the Father gives only those whom He knows will believe on the Son by their own free will, such an argument cannot be made from this text. Indeed, such an argument presupposes the existence of a free will decree, and no such decree resides in Scripture.

Let me emphasize this clearly, the text of John 6 answers the "Why?" question as follows: Those who will not believe, have not been given to the Son by the Father.

But what about free will? Can't we argue that man's chief motivation for belief ultimately lies within his own will? No, we cannot. Libertarian free will, as traditionally espoused by Arminians and other synergists, does not provide us with a motive for doing anything. Free will (theoretically) provides a capacity to choose, but never a reason for choosing. Therefore, the invocation of "free will" solves nothing.

Also, as discussed previously, a passive interpretation of divine foreknowledge is inconsistent with Ro. 8:29, where the active foreknowing of God establishes a relationship with His elect. Though strong assertions have been made to the contrary, an exegetically sound approach to προέγνω leaves little room for argument. See HERE.

(v40) "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

So then, the argument summates as follows:

Only those whom the Father gives to the Son will come to Him by faith. All who come to Christ by faith will be raised up on the last day. It is the will of God the Father to grant eternal life only to those whom He gives to the Son. Notice the continuous affirmation of certainty that Christ will save all whom the Father has given to Him. Only a monergistic hermeneutic provides a consistent foundation for an assertion of eternal security.

(v41-42) Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

Thus far we have seen that the crowd was unbelieving. The unbelieving Jews local to Capurnaum demonstrate the very essence of human depravity. Staring their Messiah in the face, they besmirch Him and His parentage. One might expect Jesus to reaffirm His heavenly origins or flex His supernatural muscles in anger, but His response is far more telling.

(v43-44) Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Just as the giving of the Father results in the coming of God's people unto Christ, so the drawing of the Father results in the redemption of all whom He draws. Thus, the Jews were unbelieving because they were not being drawn by the Father.

The synergistic response to this text usually goes something like this: God draws everyone, but only those who freely choose to come by faith are saved.

However, the Lord's words leave no room for such an interpretation. This text teaches the incapacity of the natural man to come to Christ. It also teaches the "him" whom God draws to the Son, is the same "him" who is saved by the Son. Unless one wishes to argue for universalism, a consistent reading of the passage leads to only one inexorable conclusion: Absolute monergistic sovereignty. All who come to Christ by faith, do so because God has drawn them; and all whom God draws will be efficaciously saved.

(v45-47) "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Again, the Lord reiterates the singular truth He has been deliniating since verse 37. While the Jews could hear God the Son, this did not result in their learning from Him. God uniquely teaches all whom He efficaciously calls unto faith, and everyone so taught comes to faith. While the closing sentence might seem to support a free will reading of the text, Christ is merely affirming what He has been saying repeatedly. It is the believing ones who receive eternal life. And they that believe are those who have been given by the Father...drawn by the Father. "Why does anyone ever come to faith in Christ?" The only biblical answer to this question is, Irresistible Grace.



Exposition [Lk. 13:31-35/NASB]
Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, "Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You." And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

There is nothing especially difficult about this Scripture. It say what it says, and it means what it says. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how often synergists will pull verse 34 out of the bag as an argument against Irresistible Grace.

To whom has Christ been speaking in this passage? The Pharisees. To understand His lament over Jerusalem, one need not acquire a degree in systematic theology to conclude that the Lord is unconcerned with the stones, bricks and mortar. Rather, "Jerusalem" represents a certain group of people. But who? Most exegetes would argue that Jerusalem represents the people to whom Jesus has been talking...and I strongly agree. When the Lord laments over Jerusalem, He is lamenting over the hard heartedness of the Pharisees.

But should we conclude, therefore, that Christ deeply desired to save the Pharisees, yet was rebuffed in His efforts by their human liberty? Not a chance! It was not the Pharisees whom Christ desired to save, but their followers. "How often I wanted to gather your children (the people) together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you (the Pharisees) would not have it!"

So then, did the Pharisees oppose the Lord's ministry? Sure. Did they labor to keep the people from salvation? Sure. Did Jesus fail in His mission to save His Jewish elect? Hardly! Does the "free will" of man have sway over the eternal purposes of God? Not a chance! As we have seen in John 6, all whom the Father gives to the Son will come to faith in the Son, and will be raised up on the last day.


Exposition [2 Ptr. 3:3-9]
It is frequently argued by proponents of free will, that God desires to save everyone exhaustively, but only those who freely choose to believe will thus receive eternal life. A favorite passage of those espousing this view is 2 Ptr. 3:9, which states: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

However, when examined in context, we quickly come to understand that this application of the verse is erroneous and eisogetical. Let's consider the broader passage:

(v3-9) Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Notice the contrast between two groups --- the mockers, who are signified by words like they, their etc, and the beloved...God's redeemed children. It is not all people whom the Lord desires to save, but only His beloved ones. We can see that God is expressing His patience "toward you", not "them".

Consequently, this text teaches that God is carrying out the full extent of time in order to facilitate the salvation of His elect, all of whom He desires to save, and all of whom will indeed come to faith.
Rather than challenging the doctrines of grace, this text actually supports them.



Conclusion:
If one sets aside synergistic traditions and makes one's case exclusively from the text of Scripture, one is forced to acknowledge that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone -- and that this saving grace is irresistible to the recipient.

 
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Vince53

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One of the key errors of Calvinism is the doctrine that God only wants certain people to be saved. The Bible, however, tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life."
 
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TimRout

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A wonderful exposition Pastor Tim. I read this Chapter in family devotions tonight. The entire gospel according to John is a testimony of the free grace of God in the salvation of men. Thank you for sharing this.
Thank-you brother,

And you're absolutely right. While I didn't want to belabor the point, since my post was already getting a bit long, it is worth mentioning that sovereign grace runs throughout the Gospel of John.


"He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come." [Jn. 8:20/NIV]

Notice that the Lord's enemies desired to harm Him, yet were unable to do so. God's sovereign plan and perfect timing overruled the expected inclinations of human will. Remember, God has a will. I have a will. When my will comes into conflict with God's will, God wins.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." [Jn. 8:24/NASB]

Synergists often apply this verse as a conditional statement contingent on the free actions of Jesus' audience. In other words, the Scribes and Pharisees were savable, if only they would choose to believe. But remember, Jesus already knew who would or would not believe in Him [6:64]. With that foreknowledge in mind, the destinies of these Scribes and Pharisees was already sealed.


The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." [Jn. 10:24-26/NASB]

Now watch the details here. The Jews confront Jesus in the Temple court and start laying into Him concerning His identity. The Lord then reveals two critical truths.

Firstly, the Jews were nonbelievers. Even though He had been crystal clear with them concerning His identity, they did not believe.

Secondly, the reason the Jews did not believe is that the Jews were not of His sheep. While synergists insist that anyone can become a sheep at will, this has never been true. Indeed, it is God's sovereign unconditional election unto sheepdom that determines a person's destiny.

"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours...." [Jn. 17:9/NASB]

This single line from the midst of Christ's high priestly prayer speaks volumes. Notice that the Lord is praying only for His elect...those whom God has given Him. This reflects back to 6:37, 44.
 
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TimRout

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One of the key errors of Calvinism is the doctrine that God only wants certain people to be saved. The Bible, however, tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life."
I'm sorry brother, but I cannot agree.

For an exegetical analysis of 2 Ptr. 3:3-9, see post #106 above.


Exposition [1 Tim. 2:1-4/NASB]
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

The key question when dealing with this text can be framed like so:

When Paul speaks of "all men", is he referring to all people exhaustively, or is he referring to all different kinds of people (tribes, tongues, nations, ethnicities, etc).

If synergists are correct and "all men" refers to all people exhaustively, this poses at least two key problems.

1. "All people exhaustively" would have to include those who are in hell, and God has no desire to save them.

2. "All people exhaustively" would need to be applied to both occurrences of "all men" (highlighted), meaning that Paul was instructing the Ephesian church to pray for an amorphous group of unidentifiable persons without specificity -- on par with "Dear Jesus, I pray for EVERYONE! A-men." Not only would this practice contradict the bulk of Scriptural instruction on prayer, but it would also ignore the parameters Paul has presented in this very text. After instructing Timothy that entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgiving be made on behalf of all men, Paul then qualifies his instruction by specifying types of men for whom we should pray -- kings and all who are in authority.

Therefore, understood consistently, 1 Tim. 2:4 does not teach that God desires to save everyone exhaustively. Rather, God desires to save every kind of person globally. And indeed, that is just the sort of picture reflected in passages like Revelation 5:9.


And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
 
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RobertZ

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But remember, Jesus already knew who would or would not believe in Him [6:64]. With that foreknowledge in mind, the destinies of these Scribes and Pharisees was already sealed.


Thats right, just like God already knew before the foundations of the world who would believe and who would not believe. Im glad your starting to see it our way Tim. Sorry, I just couldnt help myself and I still love you my Brother. ;)
 
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TimRout

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Thats right, just like God already knew before the foundations of the world who would believe and who would not believe. ;)
Hi Robert,

If I rightly interpret your words, you are espousing a form of passive philosophical foreknowledge whereby God views the future, learns who will believe on Christ, and elects them on that basis. This position has already been refuted HERE, so I won't bother rehashing the argument.

However, asserting that God's divine selection is based on His foreknowledge of human free choice, is a self-defeating argument. After all, if God knows in advance who will and will not believe, yet chooses to create them anyhow, free will is a myth. To be consistent, one must either argue for unconditional election, or open theism. The latter brings with it a whole new set of theological implications that I'm not sure you'd want to swallow.
 
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mlqurgw

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Thats right, just like God already knew before the foundations of the world who would believe and who would not believe. Im glad your starting to see it our way Tim. ;)
Foresight and foreknowledge are not the same thing. The free-will idea is foresight not foreknowledge. God foreknows, in the sense of knowing before, what will happen because He has foreordained that it will. He foresees as well for the same reason. But the Scriptural use of the word foreknow has to do with an intimate relationship not a foresight. If God acts according to foresight then He is subject to the will of men and responds to them rather than men responding to God. It also means that God is informed by something which contradicts His omniscience and immutability. Also if God elects based on a foreseen faith then salvation is by a work performed by man not by the grace of God. There can be no other conclusion if God determines to save based on a foreseen act of faith.
 
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Tzaousios

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Foresight and foreknowledge are not the same thing. The free-will idea is foresight not foreknowledge. God foreknows, in the sense of knowing before, what will happen because He has foreordained that it will. He foresees as well for the same reason. But the Scriptural use of the word foreknow has to do with an intimate relationship not a foresight. If God acts according to foresight then He is subject to the will of men and responds to them rather than men responding to God. It also means that God is informed by something which contradicts His omniscience and immutability. Also if God elects based on a foreseen faith then salvation is by a work performed by man not by the grace of God. There can be no other conclusion if God determines to save based on a foreseen act of faith.

Not to mention that the "foresight" argument crumbles when one considers the manner in which God wills and acts in salvation from his position of absolute transcendence, omniscience, and omnipotence.

Although human beings experience the immanent actions of God in time, as described in Romans 8, from God's position, his foreknowing, willing, and acting essentially become one and the same because they are inextricably linked outside of time. Thus, he has already foreknown, willed, and acted upon the salvation of the elect based on his sovereign purpose and the counsel of his will.
 
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RobertZ

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Hi Robert,

If I rightly interpret your words, you are espousing a form of passive philosophical foreknowledge whereby God views the future, learns who will believe on Christ, and elects them on that basis.

Tim you have to admit, you backed yourself into a corner. I saw a golden opportunity and took it.

You might not see it the way that I do but your comment regarding how Jesus already knew about the path which the pharisees would choose only supports what us free will brothers are trying to get across.

After all, if God knows in advance who will and will not believe, yet chooses to create them anyhow, free will is a myth.


How so?
 
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mlqurgw

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Originally Posted by TimRout
After all, if God knows in advance who will and will not believe, yet chooses to create them anyhow, free will is a myth.



Robertz said:
Obviously because God created them to do exactly as they do. They have no choice to do otherwise.
 
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TimRout

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Tim you have to admit, you backed yourself into a corner. I saw a golden opportunity and took it.
I admit no such thing, Robert. Neither can I understand how you would conclude as much. Perhaps you do not yet comprehend my position?
You might not see it the way that I do but your comment regarding how Jesus already knew about the path which the pharisees would choose only supports what us free will brothers are trying to get across.
I'm sorry friend, but you are mistaken. It seems clear that you do not understand my argument. Perhaps you would care to demonstrate how my position supports synergism?
 
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Hammster

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One of the key errors of Calvinism is the doctrine that God only wants certain people to be saved. The Bible, however, tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.



1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth."



2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life."



As one who used to hold your view, those verses can be compelling. The problem with the libertarian view, however, is taking verses out of context and using them as proof-texts. Or, as another member did, taking a verse from one book and using it to counter a passage in another. Or taking a known truth and reading it into a passage where, in context, it doesn't belong.

You indicated that in the Romans 8:28-30 passage that God knew all who would believe and that is who He predestined. I asked how, from the text, you came to that conclusion. Would you care to address that?
 
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RobertZ

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Obviously because God created them to do exactly as they do. They have no choice to do otherwise.


Sorry but I dont believe that we are a bunch of pre programmed robots roaming around the earth, I have personally seen to many times in my life people who were being delt with by the Holy Spirit and yet chose to walk away unconverted and unsaved and I have also provided evidence that this can and does happen.
 
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