The Doctrines Of Grace

[TimRout]

Pastor Tim, would it be appropriate to counsel this woman that as long as she lives practicing sin that she can have no real assurance of Salvation ?

No assurance? Sure. No salvation? Not our call.

 

[atcfisherman]

Knowing For Certain

How can a person know for certain that he's saved, and therefore one of God's elect?

[1 Jn. 5:13] "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The Bible tells us that a person can know for sure that he has eternal life. The things of which John wrote pertain to the gospel. Therefore, intrinsic to the gospel message is an assurance of genuine rebirth. While no one can know if his neighbor is of the elect, we can certainly gain confidence in our own eternal destinies. Here are some thoughts that might be helpful in measuring your own spiritual status:

1. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ [Mk. 1:15]. An authentic Christian lives a life characterized by continuous repentance and faith.

2. Test yourself to see if your life shows evidence of transformation in Christ [2 Cor. 13:5]. While all Christians sin sometimes, the truly saved person loves Christ and hates his own wickedness [Ro. 7:24-25].

3. Examine your lifestyle for ever increasing spiritual fruit [Gal. 5:22; Eph. 2:10].

4. Observe the ways in which God is using you to minister to others, even if they don't acknowledge it [Ac. 7:25].

5. Meditate on your attitude toward the Scriptures [Ps. 119:11]. A genuinely saved person labors to consume the Word of God daily.
​

This is right on the money! Good point!!!

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

This was very helpful to me - thanks to everyone!

God bless,

Jeff

 

[the particular baptist]

No assurance? Sure. No salvation? Not our call.

Thanks

 

[mlqurgw]

I thought this might fit well here. I know some of you have read it before as I have posted it before but just in case you haven't:

Particular Redemption​

Let me begin by saying I am not very fond of the term “limited atonement’. All but Universalists limit the atonement in some way. I prefer the term “Particular Redemption” as it speaks more plainly to the teaching of the Scriptures and leaves less room for misunderstanding. I will take as my text John 10:11. I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep. Now if that were the only passage of Holy Scripture that speaks to the doctrine of a definite and particular redemption we would still be bound to believe what it says. There seems to me to be absolutely no wriggle room in this statement by our Lord.
I want to speak to this issue from 3 perspectives as the Scriptures speak: Christ as our Surety, Christ as our sin bearer and Christ as our substitute. It is my purpose to show how and why we can trust Christ’s work for all our salvation.
A proper understanding of the atonement of Christ is crucial to the Gospel. There really is no Gospel without it. Let me see if I can explain: The good news of the Gospel lies in the truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Either He, by His death, actually accomplished redemption for someone or His death really means nothing. Where is the good news in an atonement that didn’t atone? Where is the wonderful message in a redemption that that didn’t redeem? How can a sinner look to a Savior with confidence who didn’t actually save? The only hope a sinner can have is that Christ did actually make an atonement for his sin. This is the ground of assurance we preach and believe. Our hope is in the finished work of the Savior.
Now our text says that the Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep. No one took His life, they had neither the authority nor power to do so, He gave it up for the sheep. He repeats the fact that He lays down His life for the sheep again in verse 15 of John 10. He makes it even more plain in verses 17and 18 of the same chapter. He told Pilate that he had no power over Him unless it was given him from above. (John 19:11) Christ laying down His life for the sheep was a voluntary act on His part. There was no force or coercion involved. Infinite love and fathomless mercy toward the sheep moved Him to act.
This brings us to a question: How is it possible that Christ could voluntarily lay down His life for the sheep? It is true that no court in the world would allow such a thing. No righteous judge could possibly put to death an innocent person. God says in Proverbs 17:15, He that justifieth the wicked and he that condemeth the just, even they both are an abomination to God. How then can God be righteous and put to death that One who was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners? The answer rests in the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was no mere man. A mere man has no authority to lay down his life because his life doesn’t belong to him. All men answer to a higher authority, God, and have no right to give that which doesn’t belong to them. That isn’t the case with Christ. As God, He has every right over His own life and may give it as He pleases. He alone is able to lay down His life for the sheep. The word translated power in John 10:18 is authority.
Are you still with me? I know I have taken the long way around to get here but I believe it was necessary to lay a foundation in order to properly grasp the meaning of Scripture when it speaks of Christ’s atonement. So with what has been already said in mind lets now look at 3 ways the Bible speaks of Christ. I hope to answer the question as to how God can righteously put to death His darling Son in the place of chosen sinners. Once that has been answered we are able to see that the death of Christ on the cross was for the sheep alone.
Christ our surety.
The writer to the Hebrews tells us in 7:22 that Jesus was made a surety of a better covenant. What is a surety? The modern idea of a surety is like a co-signer on a loan but that isn’t the Scriptural concept. We have 2 examples given for us that will take us a long way in understanding what the Scriptures mean by a surety. The first is in Gen. 43:9. Judah becomes a surety for Benjamin. As a surety he agrees to bear all the blame for any failure. He takes upon himself full responsibility and by doing so relieves Benjamin of guilt for his failure to return. The second we find in Philemon 18. Paul became a surety for Onesimus. In essence Paul is saying that his debt is mine, I make it mine and agree to repay all he owes. Because Paul became surety no debt could be charged to Onesimus. He must go free. The debt is now Paul’s to repay. Onesimus no longer owes anything to Philemon. So we see that a surety doesn’t agree to pay only the part that is left unpaid, as a co-signer, but takes the whole debt in its entirety. The debt becomes solely his who is surety and that one for whom he becomes surety must go free because he no longer owes anything.
In the Covenant of Grace, made between the three persons of the Godhead before the foundation of the world, Christ became Surety for all that the Father gave Him. (John 6:39) As the Great Shepherd of the sheep He took full responsibility for them and must bear the blame for any that are lost. As their Surety He guarantees their safety and must bring them into the sheepfold. (John 10:16) If He fails to do what He agreed to do then the blame isn’t on the sheep but on Him. Again, as the Surety of the sheep He took all their debt as His own. In that everlasting covenant ordered in all things and sure He said, “Whatever they owe I will repay. They must go free.” Justice no longer can seek satisfaction from them, they have a Surety. The creditor can no longer require payment from them, they have a Surety. They are free from all debt and blame; their Surety has taken it as His own. We have a beautiful picture of Christ our Surety when the men came to take Him in John 18:7,8. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
There are some in this world who are not the sheep for whom Christ became Surety. In verse 26 of John 10 we find our Lord telling some men that they believe not because they are not His sheep. He was neither their Surety nor their Shepherd. If He had been He couldn’t have said those words to them.
This thought ought to strike terror in the heart of unbelievers. How awful it will be to stand before the judge of the whole earth without a Surety. No wonder it is said in Rev. 6:16 that they will cry for the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Do you have a Surety? If you believe on Him who is the Surety of a better covenant you do. Trusting Him alone as taking your debt and making it His own is evidence that He is your Surety.
Christ our sin bearer.
Next I want us to look at Christ the sin bearer. There are several passages of Scripture that speak of Christ bearing sin. Probably the most well known is Isa 53. In verse 6 we read that the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. In verse 11 we read that He shall justify many for He shall bear their iniquities. And in verse 12 we read He bare the sin of many. In what way did Christ bear sin?
Sin incurs guilt. If I rob a bank it makes no difference whether I am caught I am still guilty of bank robbery. I have committed a crime and deserve the just reward of my deed. I bear the guilt for my crime. Peter tells us in 1Pet. 2:24 that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree. The great mass of guilt that was the burden of all the elect of God He took upon Himself. He bore it as a burden that was His own. He suffered under the heavy weight of it. The guilt of sin was imputed to Him in an act of justice. We read that the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. A transfer was made from the sinner to the Savior. (Remember what I said about Christ being the only one who has the authority to do such a thing) We have this typified for us in the scapegoat. Lev. 15:21,22
We read that Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the scapegoat
confessing the sin of the people putting them on the head of the goat typifying a transfer of guilt. In verse 22 we find that the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities. The scapegoat is then led away by the hands of a fit man (I love the way the KJV puts it) into the wilderness and let go never to be seen again. In the same way Christ, as our scapegoat bearing the sin of His people, has born sin away so thoroughly that God says of it that it shall be looked for but shall not be found. Jer. 50:20 He bore it away as far as the East is from the West. How far is that? North meets South at the poles but East never meets West. You may travel East forever without ever traveling West. He has removed our sin so completely that even God who sees everywhere can’t find it. He carried it away in His own body on the tree, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us taking it out of the way nailing it to His cross. In Hebrews 1:3 we read that He has (notice it is past tense) purged our sins. That means it is completely removed and no longer exists. When you purge something not even a small remnant of it remains. It is gone. Even the sin that I do today and will do tomorrow is gone. Christ bore it away.

Continued:

 

[mlqurgw]

Continued:


Christ our substitute.
Next is Christ our substitute. The passage that speaks to this is 2Cor. 5:21. I will be the first to admit that the word substitute isn’t in the Scriptures but certainly the idea is. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. An old preacher friend of mine once said, “ God must first do something for Himself before He can ever do something for the sinner.” We said earlier that sin incurs guilt. There is something else that sin incurs; it incurs the wrath of a holy and just God. He cannot just overlook and forgive sin. We are able to do that because we are ourselves sinners in need of forgiveness. He has sworn and will not go back that the soul that sins must die, Ezek. 18:4. Strict unbending justice demands the death of the sinner and before mercy can be granted justice must be satisfied. If God were to be merciful and forgive sin without satisfying the demand of strict justice He would cease to be God. His holiness and righteousness would fall to the ground. In Psa 85:10 we read that mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. There is only one way this can ever take place: in Christ our substitute. God hath made Him to be sin for us!
Can it be true? Was Christ made to be sin? Yes it is because He was. Remember what we said about no righteous judge putting an innocent man to death? The act of imputation that took place was no mere pasting on but a transfer of guilt. He didn’t just carry our sin it became His. He took it as His own and died under the wrath of God because of it. With one tremendous draft of love, He drank damnation dry. Again I refer you to 1Pet. 2:24. We read that He bore our sin in His own body on the tree not on His body. Psalm 40 is generally accepted as a Messianic Psalm. It is interpreted as Christ speaking. Hear what He says in verse 12: Psa 40:12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me
The Lord our Savior Jesus Christ satisfied all the demands of justice against the sin of all for whom He was the substitute. He stood in their place and suffered as a sinner until wrath was spent and could no longer rise up against His people. God can never again punish any for whom Christ was the substitute. God can never be wrathful against any sinner for whom Christ died. He may, in love, chastise and correct them but never again punish them. God did something for Himself in order to be merciful to sinners. He exhausted His wrath against the sin of His elect and satisfied His strict justice in a perfect substitute.
Conclusion.
There are more ways that Christ is spoken of in the Scriptures having to do with atonement by Him that I haven’t dealt with: propitiation, redemption, ransom, Passover, sacrifice, the Lamb of God and Jehovah’s Servant. All of which, when properly understood, speak of Him doing something for a particular people. Christ laid down His life for the sheep. There are no hypotheticals involved. As the Surety of His people He made their debt His. As their sin bearer He has removed their sin. As their substitute He stood in their place and put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. By His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9:12
In light of these things the objections raised pale by reason of the glorious truth that Christ is the Good Shepherd that lays down His life for the sheep.

 

[TimRout]

A Word Of Testimony - Because Someone Asked

Today is October 2, my 39th birthday. But to be honest, this day isn't really all that significant to me. I have another more important birthday. God forever transformed my life, forgave my sin, and joined me to Christ on August 3 1991 at the age of 20.

I had grown up around various churches -- some very good Bible believing churches, and others that were quite liberal and disobedient. My parents took me to godly churches until their divorce when I was nine. After that, I went to live with my Dad, and he insisted on taking us to churches that wouldn't hassle him about leaving my Mom. "Soft on divorce" often means "soft on truth", so ages 10 through 17 were spent in fairly meaningless churches that did not teach God's Word rightly.

Dad ultimately remarried. Now me and my two brothers and one sister, were joined by my step-mother's two sons and two daughters. My step-sister Melanie began attending a midweek youth meeting at a conservative Baptist church across town. At the age of 15 God saved Mel; she was baptized in that church and started attending there several times a week, including Sundays. As a dutiful brother I attended her baptism, though I myself was unsaved and had no real interest in the things of God. I had spent so many years in liberal churches, I believed that pretty much everyone was going to heaven.

Melanie's new church was quite large and had an orchestra pit up front just before the platform. As I sat in the back row trying to keep myself from nodding off, I noticed a very pretty girl about my age playing in the saxophone section. Being that I myself am a saxophonist, I waited for the service to end and made my way up front to introduce myself. I figured if I had to suffer through the utter boredom of a church service, at least I might get a date out of it.

As I started to chat her up, her mother (the orchestral conductor) stepped in beside me and gave me a great big hug. She was a slight woman, hardly half my height, but she immediately won me over with her warm smile and profoundly kind nature. She overheard me talking to her daughter about music and immediately invited me to join the orchestra. I was 17 and VERY brash. I figured that joining the band would mean spending every service sitting beside her daughter, so I said yes.

Once per month, every month, I showed up for the orchestral service. I got to know the young lady very well, though we never dated. She, and her sister, and her parents, spent a great deal of time befriending me. They had me over for dinner, talked to me about the Lord, and encouraged me to come to church even if I wasn't playing that week. And so over time I sat in that orchestra pit, right below that big pulpit, and tolerated the meaningless drivel spewing forth from the mouth of the Pastor. I played in that orchestra for the next three years, always hopeful that the pretty young girl would eventually fall for me, and for the next three years I listed to boring sermons about Jesus, and sin, and repentance, and grace, and wrath, and redemption. All of it -- every bit -- went in one ear and out the other. It meant nothing to me. In fact, as far as I was concerned, the Bible was good for little more than piously decorating my night stand.

The tedium continued until one Saturday night, as I sat there in the orchestra pit trying hard to look like I cared about the special youth event, something extraordinary took place. The same old Pastor was preaching from the same old Bible about the same old Jesus, and yet somehow I found myself captivated by his words. The message started to mean something. When he would read from the Scriptures, I experienced a strange excitement building within me and before I knew it, I discovered something terrifying -- wonderful -- impossible. I believed! Something had happened inside me. It didn't feel like much of anything, but something had changed. Somehow the sermon didn't seem so boring anymore. Somehow, in an instant, church ceased to be my chief method of acquiring chicks, and became an end unto itself...something I longed for. And the Bible that had been little more than a joke to me, now became the overwhelming fascination of my life.

I drove home that night feeling kinda shaky. It was difficult for me to understand what was happening to me. For some inexplicable reason, the Jesus who had seemed little more than a myth was now the single most magnificent person I had ever heard of. And the sin that had once been so easy to dismiss, was now staring me in the face and making me feel more guilty than a former concentration camp guard. I realized the overwhelming holiness of God, and I was cut through to the core with shame and terror.

That night I called up a friend and went out drinking. I came home late...wasted. Lying on my bed, all I could think about was the gospel message the Pastor had been preaching. I felt so completely lost. On my nightstand was the little Bible my grandmother had given me years before. It was like new, having rarely been touched. I picked it up out of sheer desperation and it fell open to a passage she had bookmarked. There before me, underlined carefully in pencil, were these words:

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life." [1 Tim. 1:15-16]

I remembered seeing those words before. After all, grandma had underlined them years before and I had had occasion to open the Bible a few times over the years. But on that night, for the first time, the words seemed to jump off the page and spin through my mind. What had once been meaningless became profoundly simple and clear. I had ruined myself. I was a guilty sinner standing spiritually naked and helpless before a holy God whose wrath I had thoroughly earned. Yet here was Paul, a great man of God, who considered himself to be even worse than me..."the worst of all sinners". As I pondered my state and my sin, I could hardly stand to be in my own presence.

Then a thought formed in my mind. If God could transform the life of someone like Paul -- the worst of all sinners -- surely He could do something with me. So, driven to despair, I stared at the ceiling and recalled all the words the Pastor had spoken over the years. I remembered the gospel and God's command to repent. And then I said the words -- not magic words, but faith filled words that marked the moment of rebirth. "I give up!"

I had come to the end of myself. It was time to let go of everything and follow the Lord Jesus Christ alone. God had removed my heart of stone and had given me a heart of flesh; and that new heart did the only thing it knows how to do. Repent and believe.

That's how God saved me, HS. I'll stop there and let you ask whatever questions you find purposeful.

 

[TimRout]

Divine Foreknowledge
​

Often, proponents of free will characterize the nature of God's foreknowing as purely passive. They assert that God, in eternity past, gazed down through the tunnels of time, observed the faith of those who would freely choose to repent and believe, and predestined said persons unto salvation on that basis.

Monergists, however, have long argued that passages like the Golden Chain Of Redemption [Ro. 8:29-30] do not support this hypothesis.

Here is a meaningful post from our dear Presbyterian brother, Ask Mr. Religion. It speaks to the function and implications of προέγνω (foreknew), and the nature of divine foreknowedge. It seemed an appropriate addition to this thread.

The Greek proegnō appears in two places in the NT. Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2. In both verses the implication is that God knows beforehand.

Foreknowledge proegno The word is used of...
Rom 8:26-29 What is foreseen? People or faith?

• Word meaning: When used of people, ginosko always emphasizes relationship and intimacy.
• Tense: Aorist Active Indicative An Act of God
• Object of the verb? “Whom”

It is Not: coming to know something about a person, but knowing the person.

Foreknowledge proegno The word is used of...

• 1 Pet 1:2 Clearly, foreknowledge as mere perception is not the basis of election because foreknowledge includes decision on God’s part. Election is in harmo (kata) with foreknowledge, and that foreknowledge included the procedure used in working out the choice. Therefore there is some relationship and/or decision inherent in the meaning foreknow. cf Verse 20
• Acts 2:23; Rom 11:2 Decisiveness and certainty is involved.

Foreknowledge proegno The word is used of...

• Acts 2:23 - Granville Sharp’s Rule

Conclusion: Foreknowledge means “whom He set regard upon” - Whom He knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight.” It is virtually equivalent to “whom He foreloved; came into intimate relationship with.”

Predestination prohoridzo. To mark off beforehand. To preplan a destiny.

• Acts 4:28; 1 Cor 2:7 The Death of Christ and its
meaning predestined by God.
• Eph 1:5 God’s elect are predestined to adoption.
• Eph 1:11 God’s elect are predestined to an inheritance.
• Rom 8:28-29 God’s elect predestined to ultimate conformity to Christ.

What is clearly taught:

• Rom 9:18-23 A Clear Distinction:
(22) “prepared” katertismena Perf. Pass. Ptc.
(23) “prepared beforehand” proetoimasen Aor Act Ind
• 1 Pet 2:8
• Rev 20:15

Election was not based on foreseen faith. To foreknow is not a neutral concept but involves some sort of relationship.

 

[Hammster]

Let me ask a question about the synergist view of foreknowledge. If God had to look down the corridor of time before He could predestine someone to salvation, would that not mean that God had to learn something first before He could act?

I ask this because I can see on one hand that He would, but maybe an argument can also be made against it.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Nothing about my salvation was passive. My experience, though slightly different, was much like Pastor Tim's. I felt like a bolt of lightning had struck my very soul, and brought it to life. I too had been in church for years and years and studied the Bible many times with many commentaries. I can't speak to theology, but I can speak to experience, and my salvation was overwhelming, dynamic, active, thrilling, bewildering, astonishing, humbling, revealing, and about any other explamatory thing I could say. Passive? NOT.

I also used those same words to describe how words in the Bible now fly off the page at me. It's almost like the difference between hearing the football game over an AM radio to now being on the field with the team. You realize, I've heard this all before, but the meaning is now really there and it strikes a cord deep within you that never resonated before.

 

[the particular baptist]

Nothing about my salvation was passive. My experience, though slightly different, was much like Pastor Tim's. I felt like a bolt of lightning had struck my very soul, and brought it to life. I too had been in church for years and years and studied the Bible many times with many commentaries. I can't speak to theology, but I can speak to experience, and my salvation was overwhelming, dynamic, active, thrilling, bewildering, astonishing, humbling, revealing, and about any other explamatory thing I could say. Passive? NOT.

I also used those same words to describe how words in the Bible now fly off the page at me. It's almost like the difference between hearing the football game over an AM radio to now being on the field with the team. You realize, I've heard this all before, but the meaning is now really there and it strikes a cord deep within you that never resonated before.

Our resurrections are very similar brother. In fact, the change was so dramatic my wife hardly recognized the man that came home that night from work from the one that left for work that morning.

I love John 5. Speaking of 2 resurrections, our Lord indentifies the first to be regeneration, and the second for judgment. Here is the first;

John 5:24-25 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[Vince53]

Tim, getting back to your original question, the doctrine that grace is irresistible was invented by Calvinist theologians, and is not taught in the Scriptures.

 

[Hammster]

Tim, getting back to you original question, the doctrine that grace is irresistible was invented by Calvinist theologians, and is not taught in the Scriptures.

In the arguments presented, why do you disagree? Just calling something unbiblical is not an argument, but an opinion of an argument.

 

[TimRout]

Tim, getting back to your original question, the doctrine that grace is irresistible was invented by Calvinist theologians, and is not taught in the Scriptures.

Hi Vince,

I'm afraid I must disagree with your conclusion. The Scriptures clearly teach that God's saving grace is irresistible. Consider the following text:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." [Jn. 6:37/NASB]

Notice two things. Firstly, while proponents of free often like to write their presuppositional tradition into this passage, the text literally stipulates that all whom the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Him. Secondly, all who come to Christ will be received by Him. The giving of the Father precedes and causes the coming of the people.

Then again, a little further down the page:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." [Jn. 6:44/NASB]

Assuming you aren't arguing for universalism (in which God draws everyone to Christ), the only logical reading of this verse leaves us with:

a) The inability of the natural man to come to Christ.
b) The causal agent (the Father) who draws a person to Christ.
c) The salvation in Christ of every person whom the Father draws.

And that, my friend, is what we call Irresistible Grace. All whom the Father gives to the Son will be saved. All whom the Father draws to the Son will be saved. While synergists often argue that God draws everyone, and those who choose to respond are then given to Christ, this position is unsupportable in the context of John 6.

Consider the efficacious preaching of Paul and Barnabas:

"For so the Lord has commanded us,
'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Who among the Gentiles were saved at the preaching of Paul's gospel? Those who had been appointed unto eternal life. And by what means were they saved? Faith alone --- they believed. Again brother, irresistible grace.


I'll stop there and give you a chance to respond.

 

[Vince53]

In answer to my friend Hammster's question, God did not predestine anyone to salvation. Nor did He predestine anyone to Heaven, or to Hell, or to faith, or to belief, or to repentance.

God knew in advance who would accept Christ, and He chose (elected) to save them. He also predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. But the doctrine that God chose or predestined people to repentance or faith is a man-made invention.

 

[TimRout]

In answer to my friend Hammster's question, God did not predestine anyone to salvation. Nor did He predestine anyone to Heaven, or to Hell, or to faith, or to belief, or to repentance.

God knew in advance who would accept Christ, and He chose (elected) to save them. He also predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. But the doctrine that God chose or predestined people to repentance or faith is a man-made invention.

On what biblical basis do you make these assertions? I hear your opinions, but see no exegesis.

 

[RobertZ]

In answer to my friend Hammster's question, God did not predestine anyone to salvation. Nor did He predestine anyone to Heaven, or to Hell, or to faith, or to belief, or to repentance.

God knew in advance who would accept Christ, and He chose (elected) to save them. He also predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. But the doctrine that God chose or predestined people to repentance or faith is a man-made invention.

Agreed.

 

[RobertZ]

On what biblical basis do you make these assertions? I hear your opinions, but see no exegesis.

Salvation is a free GIFT from God to all who will accept it. If I force you to take something then it is no longer a gift. God makes the call time and time again to salvation and then we can either refuse it or accept it. If this wasnt the case then their would be no point in scripture to warn people that "today IF you hear his voice harden not your heart."

Every time God makes the gracious offer and the sinner walks away unconverted the harder his heart gets each time until eventually God will have no choice but to give that individual over to his sins.

 

[TimRout]

On what biblical basis do you make these assertions? I hear your opinions, but see no exegesis.

Salvation is a free GIFT from God to all who will accept it. If I force you to take something then it is no longer a gift. God makes the call time and time again to salvation and then we can either refuse it or accept it. If this wasnt the case then their would be no point in scripture to warn people that "today IF you hear his voice harden not your heart."

Every time God makes the gracious offer and the sinner walks away unconverted the harder his heart gets each time until eventually God will have no choice but to give that individual over to his sins.

Again, I hear the assertion, but see no biblical evidence presented. Where's the exegesis brother?

 

[Hammster]

In answer to my friend Hammster's question, God did not predestine anyone to salvation. Nor did He predestine anyone to Heaven, or to Hell, or to faith, or to belief, or to repentance.



God knew in advance who would accept Christ, and He chose (elected) to save them. He also predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. But the doctrine that God chose or predestined people to repentance or faith is a man-made invention.

I would be interested in your exegesis of Romans 8:28-30. As a whole. Not individual verses with different thoughts.