The doctrine of hell

[Achilles6129]

I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.

Perhaps who you "know him to be" is not actually as he is?

 

[Nanopants]

I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.

To me, "who do you say that I am?" isn't just a question asked once of Peter, but rather, it's a question of such importance that the earliest Christians thought it should be included in the centerpiece of all scripture.

That being the case, the question: "why is it important?" might also be very important.

 

[Setyoufree]

Whatever one's definition of hell, a Biblical Christian should not lose sight of the fact that God shall lay a curse upon the nonbeliever and shall lay a blessing upon the nonbeliever. This is what distinguishes the saved and the damned in the next life. If anyone does not love the Lord—a curse be on him. 1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV).

That sounds like the following:

Hey, I'm God, I love you, now love me back or I'll burn you forever and ever.....

 

[Setyoufree]

Tell me, all you who preach about hell, did Jesus flame up on the cross? I mean hell is for the sinner and Jesus took our hell. Did He flame up on the cross and is He still burning today?

 

[Setyoufree]

So here's what is wrong with this concept of an everlasting hell:

It is unjust!

I'll tell you why: Because Christ took the sins of every man, woman & child upon Himself and took our curse. How long did Christ suffer? About 6 hrs.

Did He suffer forever?

No!

Then why should one sinner be tormented forever when Christ took every sin in the world upon Himself and yet only suffered 6 hours???

Yes???

 

[Setyoufree]

REV 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Notice that the lake of fire (hell) ends with the 2nd death....."Death" isn't burning forever - that's torment & torture. Death is dying. That's justice because the wages of sin is death.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice.

1. I have to hand it to them that is a pretty good argument.

2. Some people strongly oppose Christ's statement in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul - but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY Both body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while it is true that there is real bodies and real souls going to real hell and that it has real fire and real brimstone and real torment.

And yet - Matt 10:28 is literally true as well - no matter some might choose to war against it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Mama Kidogo]

1. I have to hand it to them that is a pretty good argument.

2. Some people strongly oppose Christ's statement in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul - but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY Both body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while it is true that there is real bodies and real souls going to real hell and that it has real fire and real brimstone and real torment.

And yet - Matt 10:28 is literally true as well - no matter some might choose to war against it.

in Christ,

Bob

God is able to do anything. Does that mean he will do it? Besides that, It seems that teaching is frowned upon in GT.

"Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Trinitarianism
● Annihilationism
● discussions related to unorthodox Christian religions

And just so we know: Annihilationism is a belief that apart from salvation the final punishment of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment.

Best we leave that alone.

 

[Nanopants]

I really wish a qualified theologian could explain to me how it is that a verse out of the Gospel has come to be considered so dangerously close to heresy.

Without one I suppose we can always connect the dots...

Adulterous generation...

Helenized Judaism...

Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire...

God is a consuming fire...

Doctrines burned up by fire and, as it's written, He will destroy our wisdom and understanding?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I really wish a qualified theologian could explain to me how it is that a verse out of the Gospel has come to be considered so dangerously close to heresy.

Without one I suppose we can always connect the dots...

Adulterous generation...

Helenized Judaism...

Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire...

God is a consuming fire...

As it's written, He will destroy our understanding?

The verse doesn't. Not reading it in context does. God could and is able to chalk up a giant pool que and put a bit of english on the earth sending it out into space and having it circle Saturn three times. But it does not mean He's going to do it.

 

[Nanopants]

At the same time I suppose one could say that God may be able to torture a soul in a fiery hell for eternity, or pretty it up and say that God might consign a soul to eternal torture, but to be fair, that doesn't mean He's going to do it.

Food for thought: what we imagine that God will do is closely related to who we say He is, and what we imagine of that which we worship is closely related to who we are.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

At the same time I suppose one could say that God may be able to torture a soul in a fiery hell for eternity, or pretty it up and say that God might consign a soul to eternal torture, but to be fair, that doesn't mean He's going to do it.

Food for thought: what we imagine that God will do is closely related to who we say He is, and what we imagine of that which we worship is closely related to who we are.

Justice is given according to what has been done. We are judged as lovers of Christ or haters. So who really sends someone to hell? If God judges us worthy of hell, we caused that judgement.
So perhaps a better question would be: What kind of person would cause God to go against His desire that no man perish? God's judgement is perfect and right. Our judgement ....well that's another matter.
Hell was not made for man. But if man chooses to make Satan his father, then it is only proper such a man can follow his father who hell was created for.

 

[food4thought]

What, exactly, do you expect them to say?




If God is so just then what's disturbing about it?

You don't find it the least bit disturbing, or in any way unjust, that God would torture people for all eternity with the equivalent of a enormous blowtorch? This is the type of question I have been asked by nonbelievers, and it made me stop and seriously consider hell in that sense for the first time. People, REAL PEOPLE, perhaps someone that you know and love... screaming and burning and begging for mercy and burning and cooking and and screaming in untold agony... forever, without end... while God keeps the flames burning. Is this God's justice?

I really had to stop and reconsider this thread now that it comes down to it... I really don't want to damage anyone's faith here. Yet this concept of hell is a stumbling block to thinking people coming to believe in Jesus... and I think it is based far too much on Greek reading of Jewish writings by the early gentile church (by the beginning of the 3rd century the church was completely dominated by the Gentiles who were just as likely to have a Greek philosophical training as they were to be steeped in the teachings of the OT). I think this literal interpretation of hell is misrepresenting the heart of God, so I decided to go ahead and continue with this. Please do not misunderstand me, I think the historical-grammatical hermeneutic is the best way to interpret Scripture, but that hermeneutic allows for understanding a text metaphorically when it was intended to be taken that way. I think Jesus intended his descriptions of hell to be understood metaphorically.

Yes...which makes me wonder why they're in Christianity to begin with, if they believe that God is unjust. One would think that they would have thought of these things before joining Christianity. As it is, many people join Christianity and then basically go to war against the Bible and attempt to make it out to say whatever they wish it to say.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had never really allowed myself to meditate on what the unsaved will actually experience in the literal form of hell. Preachers and teachers rarely ever teach on hell, and when they do they do not tend to stress the actual fires of hell, but of the justice of God punishing sin, which I agree is a good and just thing. Yet when I took the time to really think, to really meditate upon what a literal understanding of the lake of fire meant...

Such an understanding is depicted in Scripture itself.

I agree, I am just not convinced that a literal burning lake of fire cooking people while immortal fireproof worms eat at their bodies in dense darkness is supposed to be the understanding we gain after prayerful thoughtful study.

What you're overlooking here is that fire is hardly a symbol of God's judgment but is actually used literally throughout all of Scripture. For example, God destroyed Sodom/Gomorrah with fire/brimstone from heaven (hardly a symbolic judgment) which meant they were simply burnt alive by God. Elijah burnt 102 men alive by calling down fire from heaven upon them (2 Kings 1).

I did not intend to convey the idea that fire is never used in it's literal sense in Scripture, and I will reword my OP in order to correct that misunderstanding. Fire is used metaphorically in Scripture, though. 1Cor 3:11-15 and Heb 12:29 come to mind after a quick search of the NT. Both of those also happen to be in relation to judgment.

I think you're being hyper-literal here.

I don't think looking at what a word actually meant to the Jewish mind is hyper-literal.

Not necessarily in Biblical usage. It could mean death, it could be a literal worm, or it could be representative of their body.

Grave worms, in the connotation of death (as opposed to the worm that produces scarlet), eat the flesh of the dead body, aiding in the process of decomposition and corruption. I don't think my understanding is a stretch. Can we at least agree that Jesus was not trying to speak of literal immortal fire proof worms in His references to hell?

The text should read "dying you shall die." The second death appears to be a reference to the lake of fire itself, not back to Genesis 2:17.

I think "dying you shall die" is a good translation of the passage. In Revelation, it is referring to the lake of fire, obviously, but it is also referring back to Gen 2 for the origin of the idea of two deaths.

No, this is not what all the different references taken together indicate.

I disagree.

Actually, Scripture indicates that hell is in fact a burning furnace, a lake of fire, where there is literal conscious torment forever and ever:

"41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 13:41-42 (NASB)

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NASB)

" 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt. 25:46 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name.”" Rev. 14:9-11 (NASB)

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10 (NASB)

I don't think any of those references contradicts my understanding.

 

[food4thought]

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger.

Fire is a symbol of God's judgment all through Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

^^ original OP ^^

vv new OP vv

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger.

Fire is is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

 

[food4thought]

At the same time I suppose one could say that God may be able to torture a soul in a fiery hell for eternity, or pretty it up and say that God might consign a soul to eternal torture, but to be fair, that doesn't mean He's going to do it.

Food for thought: what we imagine that God will do is closely related to who we say He is, and what we imagine of that which we worship is closely related to who we are.

I think I understand what you are trying to say... it's just that the whole point of sanctification is our being conformed more and more to the image of Jesus Christ. The Bible is meant to play a role in that, and what our understanding says about ourselves is far less important to me than what the Bible actually says about the character and nature of God. Scripture can and does reveal who we really are, but it also reveals something of who God really is.

 

[food4thought]

To me, "who do you say that I am?" isn't just a question asked once of Peter, but rather, it's a question of such importance that the earliest Christians thought it should be included in the centerpiece of all scripture.

Excellent insight.

That being the case, the question: "why is it important?" might also be very important.

Who we view God to be will greatly influence our character and actions. God is seeking to create character and actions in us that echo His desires for us, not what our fallen sinful selfish nature produces. God wants to transform us into what He originally created us to be.

 

[Nanopants]

I think I understand what you are trying to say... it's just that the whole point of sanctification is our being conformed more and more to the image of Jesus Christ. The Bible is meant to play a role in that, and what our understanding says about ourselves is far less important to me than what the Bible actually says about the character and nature of God. Scripture can and does reveal who we really are, but it also reveals something of who God really is.

Yes it does, and as John said, the Word is God and became flesh to dwell among us. The author of Hebrews wrote that the Word is sharper than any two edged sword, a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It's obvious that a sword divides, just as Jesus said He came to bring a sword, and division.
For example:

...I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. -Exd 33:19 (*for the sake of clarity, note that this might also be translated as "mercy on whom I will have mercy")

With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; -Ps 18:25

Can you notice a subtle but profound difference? This is not to say that the inspired, written word is contradictory, but rather, I believe, something more in line with God raising up both the just and the unjust, the King having two hands.

 

[food4thought]

So here's what is wrong with this concept of an everlasting hell:

It is unjust!

I'll tell you why: Because Christ took the sins of every man, woman & child upon Himself and took our curse. How long did Christ suffer? About 6 hrs.

Did He suffer forever?

No!

Then why should one sinner be tormented forever when Christ took every sin in the world upon Himself and yet only suffered 6 hours???

Yes???

In contemplating the redemption, we have to remember that it was not just a perfect human who suffered God's wrath on the cross. It was also the eternal Word become flesh, God the Son, who had always had a perfect relationship of love and fellowship and communion with the Father and the Holy Spirit who suffered that wrath. Their communion was so perfect that it can truly be said that they were/are/will always be One. Considering the eternal nature of YHWH, how are we to measure the cost of this to YHWH.

 

[Achilles6129]

You don't find it the least bit disturbing, or in any way unjust, that God would torture people for all eternity with the equivalent of a enormous blowtorch?

No, not at all. Do you think God is just or don't you? Do you think that Scripture's depiction of those who disobey God's commands as children of Satan is correct or incorrect?

This is the type of question I have been asked by nonbelievers, and it made me stop and seriously consider hell in that sense for the first time. People, REAL PEOPLE, perhaps someone that you know and love... screaming and burning and begging for mercy and burning and cooking and and screaming in untold agony... forever, without end... while God keeps the flames burning. Is this God's justice?

Whether I know them or love them or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not they're as evil as Scripture indicates that they are. The usual antitheistic tactic is to try to make out the people who go to hell as just so innocent, nice, kind, and so on. That's not even remotely what Scripture has to say about human beings who disobey God's commands. So there is a massive downplay here of what the Bible has to say about human beings in passages I could quote all day long.

Yet this concept of hell is a stumbling block to thinking people coming to believe in Jesus

The doctrine of eternal torment in hell is inseparable from Christ. What is indeed a stumblingblock is telling them that there is no such thing as eternal torment in hell.

I think this literal interpretation of hell is misrepresenting the heart of God,

The God revealed in the Bible would not be a God who is in any way just by the standards of natural man. Take, for example, the command to burn harlots (the daughters of priests) alive in Leviticus 21:9. Or take God's burning Nadab/Abihu, the two sons of Aaron (and #3/4 ranking in Israel respectively) alive in Leviticus 10. These things are foreign to natural man; the God revealed in Scripture is something completely, totally, and utterly alien to human nature.

I think Jesus intended his descriptions of hell to be understood metaphorically.

Well, even supposing that he did, he certainly made no mistake about the awfulness of hell, because he warned that it would be better for you to enter into life halt or maimed or blind than to go to hell. So that's a pretty awful fate right there:

"43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [ac]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [[ad]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [ae]hell, 46 [[af]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into [ag]hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mk. 9:43-48 (NASB)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had never really allowed myself to meditate on what the unsaved will actually experience in the literal form of hell.

I have, on many occasions. As a matter of fact, I think of hell frequently. I also wonder if you have properly considered what Scripture has to say about those who disobey the commands of God...?

Preachers and teachers rarely ever teach on hell,

You are correct. Christianity is a shadow of its former self.

and when they do they do not tend to stress the actual fires of hell,

You are correct that they do not stress the "torment" (torture) aspect very much any longer. They have redefined it to be eternal "separation" from God, and are very careful about the words that they choose.

but of the justice of God punishing sin, which I agree is a good and just thing. Yet when I took the time to really think, to really meditate upon what a literal understanding of the lake of fire meant...

But is sin the real reason they go to hell? That may be a rather diluted understanding of the doctrine. Again, I suggest you do some more research on what the Bible has to say about human nature, i.e., human beings in a state of nature outside of obedience to God's commands. "Sin" nowadays has become a rather diluted word, like eating chocolate when you're supposed to be on a diet or something like that.

I agree, I am just not convinced that a literal burning lake of fire cooking people while immortal fireproof worms eat at their bodies in dense darkness is supposed to be the understanding we gain after prayerful thoughtful study.

I see. Is this because Scripture denies such things or because you think that the "nature of God" simply will not allow for that understanding?

I did not intend to convey the idea that fire is never used in it's literal sense in Scripture, and I will reword my OP in order to correct that misunderstanding. Fire is used metaphorically in Scripture, though. 1Cor 3:11-15 and Heb 12:29 come to mind after a quick search of the NT. Both of those also happen to be in relation to judgment.

I am not sure at all that those passages are to be taken metaphorically, particularly Hebrews 12:29. 1 Cor. 3:11-15 also seems to be a reference to God's Spirit. No, I would disagree with this interpretation.

Grave worms, in the connotation of death (as opposed to the worm that produces scarlet), eat the flesh of the dead body, aiding in the process of decomposition and corruption. I don't think my understanding is a stretch. Can we at least agree that Jesus was not trying to speak of literal immortal fire proof worms in His references to hell?

That is one understanding of the passage, certainly. So if Christ is saying that "their worm dieth not" then that means that their body would remain alive forever...wouldn't it...since if their body decomposed then the worms would die. The reference seems to be to an everlasting state of consciousness.

I don't think any of those references contradicts my understanding.

Why not? The references clearly describe eternal torment in hell. "Tormented day and night forever and ever" is metaphorical for what exactly?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

You don't find it the least bit disturbing, or in any way unjust, that God would torture people for all eternity with the equivalent of a enormous blowtorch?

If I thought that way I think disturbed would be the clinical diagnosis of my shrink. It did bring a disturbing image to mind.