The doctrine of hell

[golgotha61]

Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

We get this "stamp", if you will, when we are saved and have proclaimed that Christ is our Lord and Savior. Eph 4:03, for instance, says that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption". This seal is translated as a "stamp" in Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. Again we are told that we are sealed in Eph 1:13, by the Holy Spirit, and this stamp is sign of the Spirit's ownership of us which then could be considered the "get out of hell free" card since we did not earn this salvation but rather it is a free gift provide by Christ's sacrifice.

 

[seeingeyes]

It is only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that one is given the seal of the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is the only stamp capable of keeping me from hell.

You follow him to stay out of hell. Is that correct?

 

[food4thought]

You follow him to stay out of hell. Is that correct?

I follow Jesus because I love the truth.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

We get this "stamp", if you will, when we are saved and have proclaimed that Christ is our Lord and Savior. Eph 4:03, for instance, says that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption". This seal is translated as a "stamp" in Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. Again we are told that we are sealed in Eph 1:13, by the Holy Spirit, and this stamp is sign of the Spirit's ownership of us which then could be considered the "get out of hell free" card since we did not earn this salvation but rather it is a free gift provide by Christ's sacrifice.

I'm not reading Seeingeyes as making up some new weird doctrine. It's an IF question. kind of like those we asked as Children when we said 'pretend'.
What it seems to be asking is IF God reached down from heaven and handed you a card promising heaven regardless of your faith, would you still walk with Jesus or go play with the evil that appears to be fun.
Let me ask it in a less hypothetical manner: Is your fear of hell the reason for your service to Christ? or Is it your love of Christ who died for you?

 

[seeingeyes]

I follow Jesus because I love the truth.

Ok, so hell is irrelevant to your decision to follow him?

 

[golgotha61]

I'm not reading Seeingeyes as making up some new weird doctrine. It's an IF question. kind of like those we asked as Children when we said 'pretend'.
What it seems to be asking is IF God reached down from heaven and handed you a card promising heaven regardless of your faith, would you still walk with Jesus or go play with the evil that appears to be fun.
Let me ask it in a less hypothetical manner: Is your fear of hell the reason for your service to Christ? or Is it your love of Christ who died for you?

I didn't think that Seeingeyes was presenting a new doctrine and I understood that it was a hypothetical question. I just was not sure if she realized that her hypothetical was more reality than thought.

The reason I came to Christ was out of fear, but that was many years ago and it was when I was, of course, a babe. But, as I grew in maturity, I began to desire to be like Him. I look more to heaven than to hell for my reason of service. My desire is enjoy His presence for eternity to come and I try to convince as many as I can to join us.

In answer to the hypothetical that you presented: No, I would not opt for a "get out of hell card" if it was offered. The reason is this: I know that Christ has satisfied the debt that I owe by His proofs of authority over sin and death that are in Scripture, but whoever is giving out this card has not proven their authority to make such a claim that this "free" card will work.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I didn't think that Seeingeyes was presenting a new doctrine and I understood that it was a hypothetical question. I just was not sure if she realized that her hypothetical was more reality than thought.

The reason I came to Christ was out of fear, but that was many years ago and it was when I was, of course, a babe. But, as I grew in maturity, I began to desire to be like Him. I look more to heaven than to hell for my reason of service. My desire is enjoy His presence for eternity to come and I try to convince as many as I can to join us.

In answer to the hypothetical that you presented: No, I would not opt for a "get out of hell card" if it was offered. The reason is this: I know that Christ has satisfied the debt that I owe by His proofs of authority over sin and death that are in Scripture, but whoever is giving out this card has not proven their authority to make such a claim that this "free" card will work.

I admit to seeing the concept rather backwardly when I read it too but I think that was due to my own experience. Mine was not of fear but of self shame and need. A bit later love became the driving force. Hell wasn't something I pondered much, as early on I saw it as a condition we chose rather than a place we are sent. I'm not really sure I've changed much on that concept.

 

[seeingeyes]

I'm not reading Seeingeyes as making up some new weird doctrine. It's an IF question. kind of like those we asked as Children when we said 'pretend'.
What it seems to be asking is IF God reached down from heaven and handed you a card promising heaven regardless of your faith, would you still walk with Jesus or go play with the evil that appears to be fun.
Let me ask it in a less hypothetical manner: Is your fear of hell the reason for your service to Christ? or Is it your love of Christ who died for you?

Our Lord has blessed you with a gentle soul, Mama, because my own translation would be along the lines of: Do you actually like Jesus, or not?!

 

[Achilles6129]

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God,

What, exactly, do you expect them to say?

and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

If God is so just then what's disturbing about it?

and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine,

Yes...which makes me wonder why they're in Christianity to begin with, if they believe that God is unjust. One would think that they would have thought of these things before joining Christianity. As it is, many people join Christianity and then basically go to war against the Bible and attempt to make it out to say whatever they wish it to say.

I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice.

Such an understanding is depicted in Scripture itself.

Fire is a symbol of God's judgment all through Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

What you're overlooking here is that fire is hardly a symbol of God's judgment but is actually used literally throughout all of Scripture. For example, God destroyed Sodom/Gomorrah with fire/brimstone from heaven (hardly a symbolic judgment) which meant they were simply burnt alive by God. Elijah burnt 102 men alive by calling down fire from heaven upon them (2 Kings 1).

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

I think you're being hyper-literal here.

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

Not necessarily in Biblical usage. It could mean death, it could be a literal worm, or it could be representative of their body.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

The text should read "dying you shall die." The second death appears to be a reference to the lake of fire itself, not back to Genesis 2:17.

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God.

No, this is not what all the different references taken together indicate.

Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Actually, Scripture indicates that hell is in fact a burning furnace, a lake of fire, where there is literal conscious torment forever and ever:

"41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 13:41-42 (NASB)

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NASB)

" 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt. 25:46 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name.”" Rev. 14:9-11 (NASB)

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10 (NASB)

 

[food4thought]

Ok, so hell is irrelevant to your decision to follow him?

I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.

 

[food4thought]

Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

Seeingeyes, your question struck me as odd because of the "hand stamp" part. Remember I am currently leading a study through Revelation, and that reference immediately brought to mind the "mark of the beast". I had never heard of it being referenced as a bogus Satanic "get out of hell free card"; but since there are about 150,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 interpretations of the mark roaming around the web, I couldn't be sure if you were implying something there. Sorry if I read more into your question than was intended.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.

I can understand that.

I can't base doctrine entirely on who I know God to be and how I think He should act based on that, though it has led my thinking on one or two points when backed up by Scripture.

Hell is a very difficult doctrine to reconcile with the nature of a loving God.

I thought of universalism once, long ago. But Scripture would seem to explicitly deny it.

I thought of annihilation and that one appeals to me. But Scripture seems to deny it as well, at least as I am conceiving it.

Purgatory would be nice if all could be "cleansed" that way and eventually allowed in heaven. But even the Catholics don't see it as having that purpose. And I can't support that by Scripture either. Not even close.

All I have are a bunch of failed attempts.

I'm not sure I'm satisfied with the doctrine of hell as I've been taught it either though. But it seems to have at least some Scriptural support.

I'm rather interested in the Orthodox point of view, which I think I've heard alluded to by people of various faiths over the years, or some similar idea. It actually makes sense as they are "tormented in the presence of the Lamb" (I always wondered about that) - but offhand I'm not sure how that verse fits in with the whole picture, so I can be just pulling it way out of timeline context. It does say that nothing unholy will enter the New Jerusalem, correct? And that the damned are implied to be in the "outer darkness". Perhaps they will flee as far as they can from the sight of the Lord, in order to get away from His holiness. I imagine if we had to stand, unforgiven, in His sight right now in our physical bodies, we'd want to flee too.

If you wanted to consider the Orthodox, I'd bet you'd have to start over from scratch. But I don't know any more about them than that they apparently are "heaven and hell" (or whatever names would be used for the places) in the same place. Just the condition of the soul/spirit itself determines the experience the person has there?

All I can say is that I sympathize with your attempts and need to try to reconcile your thoughts on this.

Be blessed in your search!

 

[seeingeyes]

Seeingeyes, your question struck me as odd because of the "hand stamp" part. Remember I am currently leading a study through Revelation, and that reference immediately brought to mind the "mark of the beast". I had never heard of it being referenced as a bogus Satanic "get out of hell free card"; but since there are about 150,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 interpretations of the mark roaming around the web, I couldn't be sure if you were implying something there. Sorry if I read more into your question than was intended.

Ahh no. The "hand stamp" thing was just a little frivolity, I was thinking of the ones you get at the amusement park if you have to run out to your car and then come back in.

I ask, though, because nonbelievers do intellectually have this get-out-of-hell-free card. They don't believe in hell. They are not afraid of it. Hell, for them, is not a good reason to do anything. They are no more going to change their lives to avoid a hell they don't believe in than you would start sleeping on the floor to avoid monsters under the bed.

The answer that many christians offer then, is to try and revoke this get-out-of-hell-free card by convincing them that this particular view of hell is real, and that they need to be afraid of it. "You need to convince them of the bad news before you give them the good news", as it were. Why? Because if this particular view of hell isn't accurate, there would be no reason to be a Christian. (And yes, that is a wide spread view. That last sentence has come out of my own mouth in the past and there were handshakes all around.)

One thing that the get-out-of-hell-free card offers is an outside view. A step back. A look at the character of the god that "these christians" are selling.

Many years ago, I was talking to a guy who told me, "My mother is a mean old bat (<---not the phrase he used!), I haven't talked to her in over ten years, but at least I wouldn't set her on fire."

Now at the time I considered this sort of thinking the very height of foolishness. Blasphemy. Reason enough to kick the dirt off ones shoes and move on.

Now I consider it a valid point. Why is it that Joe Schmoe, who can't be bothered to send out a Mother's Day card once a year more generous than our God whom the Scriptures tell us over and over is the height of mercy and justice and generosity.

So we bend the laws of logic and justice to get this treasured idea to fit. And we may "tone down" the hellfire: "Oh it's not torture, it's torment", or "Oh it's more like prison than anything else." Or we may just ignore it all together.

But none of that solves the underlying problem, and that is not that God has no right to do what He pleases, but that this idea of hell is just so utterly human.

"Love me, obey me or I'll set you on fire/put you in prison/cast you into exile" has been the rallying cry of every tyrant the world has ever known, and those who have no fear of God or of hell are quicker to sniff this out.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

As I read through much of this, I'm wondering how we come to our conclusions concerning hell. Is it tradition based, scripture based, both or are we including Homer's writings?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Ahh no. The "hand stamp" thing was just a little frivolity, I was thinking of the ones you get at the amusement park if you have to run out to your car and then come back in.

I ask, though, because nonbelievers do intellectually have this get-out-of-hell-free card. They don't believe in hell. They are not afraid of it. Hell, for them, is not a good reason to do anything. They are no more going to change their lives to avoid a hell they don't believe in than you would start sleeping on the floor to avoid monsters under the bed.

The answer that many christians offer then, is to try and revoke this get-out-of-hell-free card by convincing them that this particular view of hell is real, and that they need to be afraid of it. "You need to convince them of the bad news before you give them the good news", as it were. Why? Because if this particular view of hell isn't accurate, there would be no reason to be a Christian. (And yes, that is a wide spread view. That last sentence has come out of my own mouth in the past and there were handshakes all around.)

One thing that the get-out-of-hell-free card offers is an outside view. A step back. A look at the character of the god that "these christians" are selling.

Many years ago, I was talking to a guy who told me, "My mother is a mean old bat (<---not the phrase he used!), I haven't talked to her in over ten years, but at least I wouldn't set her on fire."

Now at the time I considered this sort of thinking the very height of foolishness. Blasphemy. Reason enough to kick the dirt off ones shoes and move on.

Now I consider it a valid point. Why is it that Joe Schmoe, who can't be bothered to send out a Mother's Day card once a year more generous than our God whom the Scriptures tell us over and over is the height of mercy and justice and generosity.

So we bend the laws of logic and justice to get this treasured idea to fit. And we may "tone down" the hellfire: "Oh it's not torture, it's torment", or "Oh it's more like prison than anything else." Or we may just ignore it all together.

But none of that solves the underlying problem, and that is not that God has no right to do what He pleases, but that this idea of hell is just so utterly human.

"Love me, obey me or I'll set you on fire/put you in prison/cast you into exile" has been the rallying cry of every tyrant the world has ever known, and those who have no fear of God or of hell are quicker to sniff this out.

You had a point here. many non-believers who deny God because of His "injustice" seem to forget how imperfect they are themselves in their judgement of The Judge. I can't win against their arrogant stand of logic and reason. For some reason, they refuse to acknowledge the idea of how far more perfect God is above themselves. They refuse to believe how imperfect they are when trying to understand Him. A perfect example is my one friend, he is agnostic. His reasoning is based upon the subject of Job. Why would a loving God just let Job's family and servants get killed to prove how right He is? I brought up the fact Job did sacrifices to God for his family and servants. and thus their deaths weren't merciless as they went to be with God upon their demise anyhow..a far better deal than working the fields. He couldn't get that. Some people can't see beyond their own intellectual arrogance no matter how much you reason with them. They are right because they are right.

My reconciliation with a loving God and a forever punishment is that there is something I am not factoring in with the reasoning of a Being infinite in so many ways compared to myself. The hard fact is the Bible doesn't explain everything about our infinite God because human language and understanding is so limited compared to the unlimited. It is only partial, enough to point us to our own salvation.

 

[Nanopants]

I as a believer share the same "arrogant stand of logic." But guess what, that's not the God I serve. Yes I do fear God. No I don't bow before the tyranny of a false image. Neither did Shadrach, Meshach or Abed-Nego, even to the point of being cast into a furnace.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I think our failure in logic concerning God is the fact we Pigeon hole Him with it. His infinite nature is more complex and logic breaking than we realize.

 

[Nanopants]

I suspect that a very large portion of Christianity would do well to consider the possibility that they have exchanged the true image of God for a lie, a delusion as it were, provided by God Himself (Isa 66:4).

Ofc, how could the individual not see himself to be so brazen, so arrogant that he questions and confronts the institution which is never wrong? He must be delusional.

 

[seeingeyes]

They are right because they are right.

In your view, that is the same reason God is right, no? Perhaps they are correct in not wanting to follow a God who is the same as them...

My reconciliation with a loving God and a forever punishment is that there is something I am not factoring in with the reasoning of a Being infinite in so many ways compared to myself. The hard fact is the Bible doesn't explain everything about our infinite God because human language and understanding is so limited compared to the unlimited. It is only partial, enough to point us to our own salvation.

Indeed, there are many things we don't know about God, and it will take us an eternity to learn them all. But if we have Jesus, what more do we really need to know?

 

[seeingeyes]

As I read through much of this, I'm wondering how we come to our conclusions concerning hell. Is it tradition based, scripture based, both or are we including Homer's writings?

I think this is a question we each have to ask ourselves. Yep.