The doctrine of hell

[BobRyan]

The price he paid doesn't allow just anyone in heaven. .

Indeed the Bible does not allow for universalism or the idea that hell is not every bit as real as heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[NannaNae]

so I think I will disagree..

so what if my sinful fallen nature/hell in me , or my flesh/hell/the void /pride /ego just may burn in hell/ the pit at his feet /foot stool forever? why should I care.
but the whole point of redemption and his salvation is this good news .. is that I do not have to live there with it , or have to live there with my fallen being . " it is no longer me that sin , it is sin in me " it is not like he doesn't warn us that he is going to put death and all things born of death in a pit at his feet forever.


and most important I hope to prove I don't want to live with " it is not I but the sin in me " , by walking away from it emotionally, mentally , spiritually , every time I am brought to the point of the choice of my life or his life.
salvation means I get to
live in the new being! kind of like Sully in Avatar , by proving I want to live in the new being.. God has provided the new being by his death and by his promises of Life.. but sin/ death/ the the void/ the pit .. in me will burn! it is dying and it will go where death and all things born of death/ and de-evolving goes !

Jesus overcame death and brought others out of death with him . so He proves he can do it for me! and now I have to prove I can do it for him.
but yes death/hell that is in me , and all of it I have created by my own will.. deserves to burn forever and it will . I pray I am found to not love my old life more than I love his new life/ and new ways / his new laws in me.

like the movie Avatar does Sully care what happens to his broken and dying flesh and the ego that lived in that old system ? NO!

 

[boldlion]

while there is a perception that many are turned away from Christianity by the concept of eternal punishment in hell, many are not turned to Christianity because they are given an escape-clause - termination of existence.

 

[Setyoufree]

so what if ...my flesh/...may burn in hell...forever? why should I care!

We must be careful who we follow. After all there are two Gods according to the Bible:

1] There's Christ the Son of the living God and

2] there's Satan, the father of lies, who was called by both Christ and Paul "the god of this world".

The god of this world, Satan, wants to put his attributes onto our loving Savior, Jesus. One way to do this is to distort God's justice. If Satan can get the believer to accept that God is cruel and unjust then eventually he can snatch that person away. He does this by attacking God's character.

 

[NannaNae]

We must be careful who we follow. After all there are two Gods according to the Bible:

1] There's Christ the Son of the living God and

2] there's Satan, the father of lies, who was called by both Christ and Paul "the god of this world".

The god of this world, Satan, wants to put his attributes onto our loving Savior, Jesus. One way to do this is to distort God's justice. If Satan can get the believer to accept that God is cruel and unjust then eventually he can snatch that person away. He does this by attacking God's character.

well since you believe the lies Satan accuses God of and those things the sons of hell believe about him .. and all the false accusations against God created by Satan's minions, and well you believe it !

Death and everything born of it and in it has been his only enemy in that he even had to die to over come it. ! and you believe he create it . no you accuse God !

when he throws people in hell the hell that they created themselves and he himself says he will do it in the new testament , you Judge that he is wrong , sorry but who are you to judge Jesus for any reason ?

 

[seeingeyes]

while there is a perception that many are turned away from Christianity by the concept of eternal punishment in hell, many are not turned to Christianity because they are given an escape-clause - termination of existence.

They see no reason to use the escape clause of Christianity because they have a different escape clause?

 

[seeingeyes]

Do you believe God is just or don't you? Do you have compassion for people who get sentenced to a federal penitentiary?

Yes. Just as the Lord does.
"I will give you as a covenant for the people,
a light for the nations,
to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness."

I wonder if you are reading the same Bible I'm reading. Have you studied Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28?

Have you read the gospels?

I think you are falling for a modern Christian portrayal of Christ and God. Let me explain this a little better. Let's say we have a scale of 0-10 - we'll call it the scale of human righteousness. Ten is the best and zero is the worst. What modern Christianity has done is depict God/Christ as a 9/10 on a scale of human righteousness and present him to the world as such. I would argue that in reality, however, God/Christ would actually be a 0/1 on a scale of human righteousness, and I believe I could quote numerous passages from Scripture to support this position.

Would Jesus say the same about his Father?

I think what you (and many others) are failing to realize is that God has nothing to do with human nature. Human nature is completely, totally, and utterly foreign and separate from God. God is outside of human nature completely and has his own nature which is completely separate from mankind. I think that this has to be realized before we proceed further because many people appear to be thinking that God actually thinks like a human being and judges right/wrong like a human being and even believes that human beings are possibly righteous. None of this is true.

That whole "Jesus" thing is kinda inconvenient, I know.

 

[NannaNae]

MAN's perceptions of GOOD and EVIL is not the center of the universe!!!
The simple fact that that Satan and all these arrogant and ignorant accusing fools exists, Proves GOD is either Loving and or LAWFUL or that His LOVE is LAW . and his Grace is LAW.
HIS LAW is the center of the UNIVERSE and HOLDS ALL THINGS together . even the cells of arrogant little fools who believe their ideas of GOOD and EVIL are the center of the universe and just because THEY >>>>>>>>>>FEEL they are beyond questioning!

I suggest you find out what His LAW is .
Your salvation is dependent on your RIGHT understanding of HIS LAW .
OR Else you will have NO RIGHT to exist in HIS DOMINION ever !
and he has clearly stated he is closing down class , soon very soon!

( if you have done it to the least of these you have done it to me )

might I suggest he has suffered with us just about long enough !

 

[Setyoufree]

.... sorry but who are you to judge Jesus for any reason ?

What you mean is I'm not to judge your particular view of God's justice. Your view of God's justice makes Hitler's atrocities look like as if he were a choirboy.

 

[Setyoufree]

I suggest you find out what His LAW is .
Your salvation is dependent on your RIGHT understanding of HIS LAW .

And what is the RIGHT understanding of His law?

 

[seeingeyes]

MAN's perceptions of GOOD and EVIL is not the center of the universe!!!
The simple fact that that Satan and all these arrogant and ignorant accusing fools exists, Proves GOD is either Loving and or LAWFUL or that His LOVE is LAW . and his Grace is LAW.
HIS LAW is the center of the UNIVERSE and HOLDS ALL THINGS together . even the cells of arrogant little fools who believe their ideas of GOOD and EVIL are the center of the universe and just because THEY >>>>>>>>>>FEEL they are beyond questioning!

I suggest you find out what His LAW is .
Your salvation is dependent on your RIGHT understanding of HIS LAW .
OR Else you will have NO RIGHT to exist in HIS DOMINION ever !
and he has clearly stated he is closing down class , soon very soon!

( if you have done it to the least of these you have done it to me )

might I suggest he has suffered with us just about long enough !

Who are you talking about?

 

[Emmy]

Dear food4thought. I believe Hell is best described as: a Place in Outer Darkness without God`s Love or Light: where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. Maybe for great evil-doers, there is a place where pain plays a part. But for those who do not want to return to God, who want to go their own way, there is only this one place: " Outer Space, without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth."
I can`t help thinking that the wailing and gnashing of teeth is: because there people will realise how very mistaken they were, to think to be without God would be better, than with God. I say this with love, food4thought.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[NannaNae]

Who are you talking about?

the one who decided that if God puts anyone in the hell
that that God no better than a Hitler.

 

[seeingeyes]

the one who decided that if God puts anyone in the hell
that that God no better than a Hitler.

This quote?:

Your view of God's justice makes Hitler's atrocities look like as if he were a choirboy.

Do you believe that God is indistinguishable from tyrants, but that He is allowed to act that way since He is God?

 

[Setyoufree]

Do you believe that God is indistinguishable from tyrants, but that He is allowed to act that way since He is God?

Actually, God is not a tyrant, but some of the theology I read makes it sound as if He were.

It is outside God's nature to do evil. Torture is evil.

As in all cases in the Bible when unbelief persists God simply removes Himself and trouble follows:

Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'

 

[food4thought]

Then I suggest that your understanding of the words "holy, good, love, righteous, merciful, and compassionate" is simply incorrect.



I thought that's what this thread was all about?

The Holy Spirit made quite sure we understood what God means when he says "agape". Perhaps you should reread 1st Corinthians 13 and contemplate what it says. This thread is about trying to understand the passages describing hell how God intended us to understand them.

Not really.

The only sure barrier to truth is the unwarranted certainty that we already know it. You appear to be just as certain your view is the correct one as the former Christian that got me thinking about this... who holds pretty much the same view of God as you do, by the way.

Scripture is pretty clear about hell, and I think we could even deduce there is a hell without Scripture at all. We could certainly deduce there is punishment after death for crimes committed in this life.

I agree.

Yes, and obviously the only way to do that would be to burn her alive. You should really check out some ancient Jewish literature because the Jews actually carried this command out and God meant them to do so for approx. 1500 years until the advent of Christ.

Interesting. Do you have a link to the relevant ancient Jewish literature?

That is not a Biblical understanding of this passage.

I apologize, I think I was wrong in what I said... the punishment is harsh, but it is still an infinite leap from temporal to eternal punishment, is it not?

Seems to me there's more going on here than refusal to obey God's commands. From what I read in Scripture "refusal to obey God's commands" actually indicates one is very really and truly evil. Perhaps you should make that connection.

Yes, I have. Every human who ever lived except for Jesus Christ is truly evil by God's standards, and deserving of God's wrath.

Then why call those who disobey his commands children of Satan? Is God a child of Satan? I think not. So then how can a child of Satan be made in God's image?

Because we have followed Satan's ways by rebelling against God despite God's image He has placed in us. Even though we have a moral conscience given to us by God, we have all disregarded it when it suited our selfish desire to please ourselves. Read Romans 2.

This comes from the tree of the knowledge of good/evil, which was knowledge forbidden to Adam/Eve in the garden of Eden, and hence, evil knowledge.

I think the Bible indicates that our moral nature was corrupted when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, not created. There are many commandments of God which make absolute sense to man's sense of morality even though we are corrupted. The problem is that we are not God centered, but self centered; therefore we will choose to disobey the dictates of our conscience and do what we desire to do even though in our hearts we know it is wrong. God will judge those who did not have the Law or the gospel by their conscience (again, see Romans 2).

The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Man does not know the true difference between right/wrong/good/evil, which should be evident from a cursory perusal of Scripture (or reality). The fact that they think the devil/beast/false prophet are good in the book of Revelation and think that the two witnesses are evil should raise a red flag.

Man does have a general sense of right and wrong that is in line with most of God's moral law, even though our sense of right and wrong is corrupted... it is not our lack of understanding of what it right, but our selfish refusal to do what is right that condemns us.

Well, let me ask you this. Have you read/studied Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28? Both describe very, very severe penalties to Israel for their disobedience to God. In essence, these penalties are torture for the disobedience of God's commands. After studying these chapters do you think your understanding of the nature of God might change? Let me quote you some passages:

Deut. 28:20-23; Deut. 28:26-32; Deut. 28:35-37; Deut. 28:47-48; Deut. 28:53 (NASB)

Let me ask you - is this not torture for disobedience to God's commands? Does this affect your understanding of the nature of God?

These things, remember, were/are common fates of all peoples. Disease was/is rampant, droughts happen/ed, wars happen/ed. God was telling them that if they obeyed His commands He would protect them from all of these things. Yet should they depart from Him by disobedience, His hedge of protection would likewise depart from them.

But all that being said, YES, God would deliberately bring upon them these things as a punishment for their breaking the covenant with Him. But again, there is an tremendous difference between temporal punishment and eternal punishment, is there not? The book of Deuteronomy clearly says that if in their affliction they come to their senses and repent, God will hear and heal their land.

These punishments serve a purpose of bringing about repentance and healing... yet in hell there is no repentance, there is no more healing... so active punishment no longer serves any purpose. All there is left for God to do is to cut them off from communion with Him, give them over to the sin they have chosen over Him, quarantine them for the protection of the redeemed, and test them constantly to prove the justice of His sentence.

It's a case of extreme hyperbole used to illustrate the seriousness of rebellion against God.

Yet you refuse to even contemplate the possibility that the lake of fire might be metaphorical hyperbole, creating in us the visceral reaction of horror to the idea of being burned alive yet not meaning that is literally what will be taking place. The Greek word basanismos is ambiguous, deliberately so I believe, regarding the nature of hell. Is it torture like the Roman officials did to suspected criminals, or is it testing for purity like the metal working origin of the word? This ambiguity is lost in translation.

Christ is also using it to illustrate the terrible fate that awaits those that go to Gehenna.

No doubt being separated from communion with God and given over to, consumed by, and brought to ruin by our sinfulness for all eternity is a terrible fate that should be avoided at all costs.

Physical death is what Paul was referring to. He is not addressing Gehenna in this passage - however, he does so in other passages, such as in 2 Thess. 1:8-9.

No doubt Revelation 19 records Jesus dealing out retribution on those who follow the beast at His return, this is not speaking of gehenna either. Even if it was speaking of gehenna, the retribution He deals out in flaming fire does not have to indicate literal flames burning them for all eternity.

No, God chooses to reveal his wrath by simply hiding himself from them. God never causes someone to sin, they sin of their own choices and free will.

I did not say God causes them to sin, I am saying that God removes the restraining influence of His Spirit from them. They get even more of what they want of their own free will, to their own destruction.

Well, in the sense that they are away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power, yes. But to say that that is all that hell consists of (eternal "separation" from God, as the modern Christian pastors like to put it) is false.

It is also incarceration, quarantine from the blessed eternal city, etc.

According to Scripture that is what hell is.



This is not a full Biblical depiction of hell.

What purpose does the literal flames and burning of the lost serve?

I would argue longer.

No argument there, I did say "over 1500 years". If not before, around the time that Christianity became the official state religion.

No, I think the way we traditionally understood hell (until the modern era) was simply based off of Scripture. If it were so easy to disprove the "traditional" view then it would have been done so by now. People have been resisting this doctrine since the very beginning.

The traditional view is oversimplified and too literal.

I think from the depictions of hell given in Scripture we can clearly see that it does mean torture. Here's a lexicon definition:

Greek Lexicon :: G929 (KJV)

And that definition references both meanings.

I would suggest, as I did above, that your definitions of "good, just, loving, merciful, and compassionate" are in fact incorrect. I would also suggest the same for the human race, and to prove it I would again submit that they think the beast/false prophet are good in the book of Revelation and they think that the two witnesses are evil.

We do have a distorted view of right and wrong, true... anything that is contrary to our desires is wrong/evil while anything that fulfills our desires is right/good to an extent. Yet we have a conscience that tells us that our desires are not always right/good, and doing certain things to fulfill our desires is wrong/evil... there are those whose consciences have been totally subverted/destroyed, which the Bible describes as having their conscience "seared as with a hot iron". I think we would call those people sociopaths.

Well, I was going off of the passage which you quoted, Hebrews 12:29. You will notice, of course, that God descended upon Mt. Sinai in fire. Also there are clear examples of God's presence being in literal fire in the Old Testament, such as above the ark of the covenant and so on. You will notice that Hebrews 12:29 does not refer to our God as a dove, lamb, door, or mother hen.

I listed the other references to show you that the words used to describe God are quite often symbolic of some aspect of His character or action, not literal. If there is the physical appearance of fire, it is only symbolically representative of how God was trying to express Himself. God is Spirit. He is not a literal physical fire any more than He is a literal lamb or lion or door. These words/manifestations are all symbolic of His character or action, not His literal "physical body" (for lack of a better way to put it). Does that make sense to you?

 

[NannaNae]

if you see God as Hitler if he throws any one in hell the hell they created

. then you have issues with his word and HIM and you have to deal with HIM , not me!
I deal with him and my sin every day.
I know what sin is and I know what it is capable of in the worst and the best of mankind.
and the simple fact that he deals with mankind at all to me is a miracle and I am grateful for His grace and his mercy to give any kind of way out of what we all deserve.
Jesus and Creation has dealt within death and in man kinds issues of filthy for a long time now. remember EVERYTHING! we do to each other is really done to him and his creation ... I think they( Jesus and Creation ) deserve a break today ! I think they have earned it !! Though I am so grateful that they both give us one more day. but truth is I can't imagine why he gave us the very first day or yesterday!
for it has to be some kind of law that restrains him from turning each of us including me , into our own little atomic reactions. because to nature that is exactly what we are and what we have done and exactly what we deserve!

may God bless you and me with his grace for just one more day!

 

[seeingeyes]

if you see God as Hitler if he throws any one in hell the hell they created

How did man create hell?

>snip<

may God bless you and me with his grace for just one more day!

Amen.

 

[Setyoufree]

How did man create hell?



Amen.

Did God create hell?

 

[seeingeyes]

Did God create hell?

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1)

Whatever hell is, God made it.