The doctrine of hell

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

I don't think I'll be able to answer everybody going forward... if I miss your post and you feel you have something tangible to add, please copy and repost, OK?

God bless you guys and thanks for the responses.

Also, I may edit and expand on my OP to give greater detail. I'll quote the old version and repost the new version in the thread, but I will try to make the OP completely up to date and fleshed out.

Nanopants · Mar 4, 2014

food4thought said:
Fire is a symbol of God's judgment all through Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

As it is also a symbol of the Holy Spirit, for example: He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire, He makes His ministers a flame of fire, and the tongues of fire experienced by the Apostles when the Holy Spirit descended on them.

According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
...
each ones work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is. -1 Cr 3:10,11,13

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. -Rev 20:14

Just a thought but perhaps something that is destined to burn may not be the most solid foundation for one's doctrine.

Sophrosyne · Mar 4, 2014

food4thought said:
For most, I think it is the cruelty of the literal view along with the eternal duration (as you pointed out) that causes them to think it unjust.

My thought is that the quarantine, being separated from communion with God and the redeemed, is the only punishment God really has to inflict... being consumed with their sin is it's own punishment.

Imagine people who suddenly have a conscience and feel every evil deed they did their entire life without any way of being forgiven the only way for them to "feel" better is to "punish" or torment them. It is a temporary way for them to feel better because the sin is never totally paid for because they rejected Jesus.

14messenger · Mar 4, 2014

Nanopants said:
Just a thought but perhaps something that is destined to burn may not be the most solid foundation for one's doctrine.

Solid is Gods word, and Gods word says that all weeds will burn.

granpa · Mar 4, 2014

baptism of fire is separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit

the Holy Spirit is symbolized by wine and by air but not fire

14messenger · Mar 4, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
Imagine people who suddenly have a conscience and feel every evil deed they did their entire life without any way of being forgiven the only way for them to "feel" better is to "punish" or torment them. It is a temporary way for them to feel better because the sin is never totally paid for because they rejected Jesus.

The error is thinking that God doesnt already give every human a chance to repent.

Nanopants · Mar 4, 2014

14messenger said:
Solid is Gods word, and Gods word says that all weeds will burn.

What was sown to produce wheat and what was sown by an enemy?

Nanopants · Mar 4, 2014

Just a related thought on the subject: I sometimes get the impression that the teachers of Jesus' day were part of an "adulterous" generation, but if Jesus showed genuine compassion and mercy for the woman caught in adultery, what form of adultery was He so angry about?

Edit: this was very confusing for me for a long time, since Jesus' rebukes and compassion can almost make Him look like two different people, though later I settled on an understanding that He was very consistent, possessing a just nature, showing mercy to the merciful and being somewhat less than merciful toward the less than merciful. If you think about it, what might lead a teacher into behaving unmercifully (in an unjust manner)? I can't say for certain about those around in Jesus' day, but assuming that human nature hasn't changed much, and looking toward those of today which appear to be of that sort, are they harping about much other than hell?

seeingeyes · Mar 4, 2014

Ceridwen said:
Whatever one's definition of hell, a Biblical Christian should not lose sight of the fact that God shall lay a curse upon the nonbeliever and shall lay a blessing upon the nonbeliever. This is what distinguishes the saved and the damned in the next life. If anyone does not love the Lorda curse be on him. 1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV).

Freudian slip? According to the OP, the nonbelievers are blessed to not believe in hell.

seeingeyes · Mar 4, 2014

food4thought said:
Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

Ceridwen · Mar 4, 2014

food4thought said:
I think you mean "a blessing upon the believer", right? What greater curse could there be than being cut off from communion with God, the source of all that is good, and be consumed by ones own sinfulness?

That is right -- "blessing upon the believer."

The suffering that you've described ("being cut off from communion with God") is a pretty formidable curse that God shall render upon them. God says that -- "I have trodden the winepress alone; I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground." Isaiah 63:3-6 (NIV)

Part of this action by God can include, as you've described -- God cutting the nonbeliever out from God's society. If that is a great divine curse, then surely God will make the nonbeliever taste it.

Mama Kidogo · Mar 4, 2014

granpa said:
the infinite light of heaven seems like hell to us because we are fallen

Wow grandpa. That's the Orthodox view. I wasn't expecting that.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

Such an interesting question.

I've asked myself this from time to time.

The answer (to me) reveals a clue to something I've just started thinking about, but I haven't reached a point of doing anything with it.

When I was a new believer, no, I think I would have gone off and behaved selfishly if I knew it wouldn't affect my salvation. I probably would have wanted to be "buddies" with Jesus, and I loved Him, but I wasn't in love with living the life.

Years later now ... my answer would be different. The life itself has great value. Is my peace from God, or is it from doing the right thing and being at peace with others? Or both? Doing the right things is its own reward. Not material reward, and not even entirely emotional reward (though that is there). But the Christian life - I don't know, is precious in itself. It's interesting to me that I can say that now. I have truly become a new creation.

Thanks be to God.

Mama Kidogo · Mar 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

I'm not understanding the concept. It seems so backwards. Like we follow Christ only to escape hell. Is that believing?
I understand it's only hypothetical so I'll have to dwell on it a while.......Enough time dwelling.
I would still follow Christ. In my mind, heaven would be hell to those not desiring to follow and love Christ as those in heaven do follow and worship Him. I think this pretty much explains the Orthodox's concept of hell which differs greatly from Dante's comedy.

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

Nanopants said:
As it is also a symbol of the Holy Spirit, for example: He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire, He makes His ministers a flame of fire, and the tongues of fire experienced by the Apostles when the Holy Spirit descended on them.

Good point. I'll have to chew on that for a while.

Nanopants said:
According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
...
each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. -1 Cr 3:10,11,13

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. -Rev 20:14

Just a thought but perhaps something that is destined to burn may not be the most solid foundation for one's doctrine.

I am not sure what you mean here...

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

Nanopants said:
Just a related thought on the subject: I sometimes get the impression that the teachers of Jesus' day were part of an "adulterous" generation, but if Jesus showed genuine compassion and mercy for the woman caught in adultery, what form of adultery was He so angry about?

Well, obviously spiritual adultery. The scribes and Pharisees were teaching as doctrines the commandments of men, making the word of God void by their traditions. On top of that, they tied a heavy burden on the people but made special rules that made it far easier for themselves (the rich) to fulfill them. This is why I felt it would be valuable to take a close look at our understanding of hell, which may indeed be the traditions of men. If my understanding can be shown to contradict the word of God, I will drop that understanding like I would a poisonous snake.

Nanopants said:
Edit: this was very confusing for me for a long time, since Jesus' rebukes and compassion can almost make Him look like two different people, though later I settled on an understanding that He was very consistent, possessing a just nature, showing mercy to the merciful and being somewhat less than merciful toward the less than merciful. If you think about it, what might lead a teacher into behaving unmercifully (in an unjust manner)? I can't say for certain about those around in Jesus' day, but assuming that human nature hasn't changed much, and looking toward those of today which appear to be of that sort, are they harping about much other than hell?

I think if you look closely at the gospels, Jesus was indeed very merciful to the poor, and towards those who were repentant. It was towards the rich rulers of His day, who were like ravenous wolves herding the sheep for their own benefit, unrepentant, making up doctrines to enable them to pretend righteousness while being full of all things unclean on the inside. It is no surprise then that the Apostles followed the same path; with Paul, John, Peter, James, and Jude all having harsh words for the false teachers and false prophets who were seeking to tear the sheep and hurt the church.

I am well aware of how dangerous it is before God to teach the Bible to others, and I pray every time that the Lord would bless our study and the Holy Spirit would open our hearts and minds to understand the Scripture. It is also why I tried very hard in my opening post to say that I was not presenting some hard and fast set in stone way of viewing the doctrine of hell, but what I felt God had shown me after quite a bit of study and contemplation. I felt it would be good to present this here, where there were many Christians talking about different doctrines from the perspectives of many traditions, that I might either find confirmation of my thoughts or have my ideas cast down.

Pro 11:14 Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory.

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
Freudian slip? According to the OP, the nonbelievers are blessed to not believe in hell.

How did you get that from what I have written?

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
Here's a question to ponder. If you really could get a "get out of hell free" card, maybe a hand stamp or something, that made you forever immune from having to go to hell, regardless of your actions, would you still follow Christ?

It is only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that one is given the seal of the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is the only stamp capable of keeping me from hell.

food4thought · Mar 4, 2014

Ceridwen said:
That is right -- "blessing upon the believer."

The suffering that you've described ("being cut off from communion with God") is a pretty formidable curse that God shall render upon them. God says that -- "I have trodden the winepress alone; I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground." Isaiah 63:3-6 (NIV)

Part of this action by God can include, as you've described -- God cutting the nonbeliever out from God's society. If that is a great divine curse, then surely God will make the nonbeliever taste it.

Yeah, I understand those passages in light of the sixth bowl judgment followed by the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ to destroy the Beast's armies and begin to establish Jesus' rule over the kingdoms of men. Revelation 19 uses all that imagery in the context of Jesus' return.

Mama Kidogo · Mar 4, 2014

food4thought said:
It is only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that one is given the seal of the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is the only stamp capable of keeping me from hell.

That didn't begin to address the hypothetical "if" in her question. It's actually a good question.

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