The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

Folks do not have to cite church doctrine in order for ECT to be true for them. I used to believe in ECT. Remember? One of the biggest things holding me back in going against ECT was the fact that the majority of Protestant churches couldn't be wrong on such a major doctrine. Yet, ECT is accepted as fact just as much they believe in Jesus Christ.

just because you were not willing to look at scripture over church doctrine doesn't mean that everyone is doing that nor does it mean that everything the church teaches is wrong. this is something you need to get through your head. Some of us believe in eternal torment because it is what scripture teaches not because it is what the church teaches. As I have told you, I challenge the church teachings all the time, but only on the things they teach wrong.

Also, if you feel offended in any way by my words, it was not meant to be an insult to anyone, but merely what I believe to be the truth. So you can take it any way you like, but my words were not intended with any malice or harm in any way. For if I am right (and I believe I am), then it is merely the truth. However, sometimes people do not like hearing the truth (for various reasons).

it's offensive when you have repeatedly been told that our belief comes from our careful study of the word (complete with prayer and willingness to change our minds) and you still insist it is based on church doctrine over the word of God because it disagrees with what you believe. Here is a hint for you. According to scripture there is only one God thus only one interpretation of scripture. that means that either you or us is not listening to God. The Eternal torment people here have by and large talked openly about the verses that seem on the surface to disagree with that position and have shown how a careful study thereof reconciles the passages. All other views ignore both/or the opposing passages and study results in order to assert themselves as having some special knowledge. that is offensive even from the standpoint of scripture which tells us to study the word of God. Personally, I wouldn't want to offend and disobey God the way most of you all have done on this thread, I have to much respect, awe, and fear of God to walk that road with you all.

In either case, may God bless you.
And please do not take my belief about as to why I think people believe in ECT personally.


...

it just shows your lack of respect for those who have told you why they believe it. And remember, I Cor. 13 love is not rude.

 

[razzelflabben]

Like I said. I am not in disagreement that there is a hell. Preaching the wrong idea of what hell is about would be a lie is what I am saying. Going beyond the text and misrepresenting what God's Word says about it is wrong. We look thru a glass darkly.


...

which is exactly why you have been challenged in your belief and yet you refused to address those challenges. My God is big enough to teach things that hold up to challenge...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Razzelflabben:

I actually have had you on ignore for a long time now.
I do not remember the reason why I put you on ignore (that was in the past), but I know that it must have been for a good reason.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense! There is not one single instance of the other 49 occurrences of the phrase "in this," in the NT, where it could possibly be translated "in front of!" No, zero, none! I know what, let's all just make up our own interpretation of scripture to fit our assumptions/presuppositions.

Well, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that teaches the Trinity point blank. But if you most know, Luke 23:4 says,

Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people,
"I find no fault in this man."​

Clearly Pilate was using the words "in this" in reference to a person within a particular direction here; And Pilate was not using the words "in this" in reference to his being inside the body of Jesus;

In addition, clearly "toutō" (τούτῳ) in Luke 23:4 and "tautē" (ταύτῃ) in Luke 16:24 (for the English word "this") have a close relationship with each other linguistically, too.

I wonder how all of the native Greek speaking ECF who understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be factual were wrong but people 2000 years +/- later somehow got it right? I guess the Holy Spirit didn't give anyone the correct interpretation until this century.

The Bible says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6).
Jesus judges certain churches as needing to repent so as to get their heart right with Him in Revelation 2 thru Revelation 3.

Do you have any scriptural examples which would help us understand how the spirit world is a parallel of the physical world concerning Lazarus and the rich man?

While this may not be the parallel you are looking for exactly, but there is a loose parallel between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Abraham's story in Genesis 18.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)
​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

If the rich man's torment ended at some time I wonder why Jesus didn't say that. That is a very important point for Jesus to omit. But Jesus did say this.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

Where does scripture say that some people will experience conscience existence after death and others will not?

The word "sleep" being used directly in reference to "death" is one clue.

15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

But I suspect this is a study that one should deeply do with no biased pre-suppositions with the Lord's help.

When did Jesus say the rich man's situation would change?

The Bible is not an exhaustive account of everybody's life. We do not know the end fate of select believers in the New Testament but we can make reasonable assumptions that many of them were saved based on their faithfulness to the Lord and the important part they play in Scripture.

The Lake of Fire and the second death are interchangeable terms, The lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire. Not one verse says that anything or anyone is thrown into the LoF and then they/it dies.

It doesn't have to. The word "death" already implies that whatever is cast into the second death dies. For "death" means to "die." Death does not mean alive. You are attempting to make this into a metaphor when there is no cause for such a thing. You are also ignoring the fact that there is a "first death" and that it is obviously related to the "second death", too. So this would be two strikes against you in your interpretation. For the context does not suggest that this is a metaphorical death. We know fires burn up things and can cause the death of beings or creatures within our physical realm. We would need a good reason in the context to assume that this was different.

Please explain to me how death and hell, neither of which is a living entity, can die a second death, when they have not and cannot die a first death?

Death and hell are spirits.

For it is written...

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8).

But even the spirit known as "death" will have his end and be no more.

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Then there is the beast, the false prophet and the devil who did not die a first death, are thrown alive into the LoF, which "is the second death" but they do not die then either, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. Ergo the LoF is not synonymous with death or annihilation.

So then you believe that certain OT saints will be stuck on this old Earth within the promised land forever and ever while the rest of the saints are on the new Earth?

For it is written...

"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever" (Jeremiah 7:7).​

Do you believe the city of Edom today is still burning and that it's smoke is still going up forever? (See Isaiah 34:10).

As for the beast and the false prophet: These are demons who have tormented mankind for thousands of years. They will inhabit physical human bodies on the Earth (Whereby when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, their bodies will be immediately destroyed or burned up - that then forces their demonic spirit out). This would then mean their demonic spirit will be tormented for a thousand years because they tormented mankind for a very long time.

Please show me a verse which says that God or Jesus has or will destroy even one soul in hell?

I already did. Matthew 10:28 says we are to fear Jesus who can destroy both body and soul in hell (i.e. Gehenna). This word "destroy" is tied to us being told not to fear the one who can destroy the body. Obviously the person on this Earth who can destroy the body only is not going to endlessly keep us alive for all time.

And show me where the LoF is identified as Gehenna?

Well, hades cannot be Gehenna. For hades was cast into the Lake of Fire.
And obviously destruction happens in the place called the "Second Death."
So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Unless of course, you don't want to see it or you don't want it to be true.

Still waiting for that verse which clearly states that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell. As I have repeatedly shown destruction does not necessarily mean destroy, annihilate, cease to exist etc.

There are many verses that talk about the fire that consumes in Scripture. But the Bible is not a book that is going to hit a person over the head about a particular truth. It is a spiritual book and many of it's meanings are hidden (Even to professing believers).

Not for death, hell, the beast, the false prophet and the devil! If there is no first death there can be no second death!

The Lake of Fire being called the Second Death is in reference to wicked humans in Revelation 21:8 and not demons. But yes, even the devil will be destroyed (See verse 18 in Ezekiel 28:12-18 and see verse 19 in Isaiah 14:12-19).


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[razzelflabben]

Dear Razzelflabben:

I actually have had you on ignore for a long time now.
I do not remember the reason why I put you on ignore (that was in the past), but I know that it must have been for a good reason.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

yeah, it was a good reason...it was challenge of your position, challenge you didn't like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People can make claims that they are correct and that others cannot see. But the real proof in the pudding is the testimony of Scripture and real life (that backs it up). Most of the time, people believe in things that are just not based on the real world. They cannot illustrate their belief using a real world example (While this is not the case for people who believe in something that is true, though).

ECT is a major problem because nobody can make a real world example out of it to show how it is loving, just, fair, and or good. Yet, Jesus and even the Canaanite woman were able to illustrate spiritual truth by using real world examples (i.e. parables).


...

 

[razzelflabben]

People can make claims that they are correct and that others cannot see. But the real proof in the pudding is the testimony of Scripture and real life (that backs it up). Most of the time, people believe in things that are just not based on the real world. They cannot illustrate their belief using a real world example (While this is not the case for people who believe in something that is true, though).

ECT is a major problem because nobody can make a real world example out of it to show how it is loving, just, fair, and or good. Yet, Jesus and even the Canaanite woman were able to illustrate spiritual truth by using real world examples (i.e. parables).


...

see, this is exactly why you put me on ignore, because I showed from scripture how ECT was loving, just, fair, and good and you didn't want to deal with that and yes, it was using real world examples....so the question is, if you are so bothered by the fact that you cannot refute truth when presented it and I mean no one on either side challenged it, why do you still insist that you know and believe truth? How about being willing to conform to God's word and what He says rather than stick to your rational?

 

[razzelflabben]

See, here is the thing...no matter how hard you try to accuse people of not being able to prove their side, it has been done and no one offered a rebuttal. that means that some on this thread who want to prove they are all wise and knowing on the matter or that they heard God and everyone else didn't are really too closed to truth to care what God really has to say. Now that being said, I never once asked anyone to agree with me...I did ask you all to challenge it, to understand what I was saying, and to act like people who are open to God's word as you all claim to be. What I got was no challenge, insults, and ignoring....let the record stand for what is hidden in the hearts of men.

 

[Der Alte]

Folks do not have to cite church doctrine in order for ECT to be true for them. I used to believe in ECT. Remember? One of the biggest things holding me back in going against ECT was the fact that the majority of

Protestant churches couldn't be wrong on such a major doctrine. Yet, ECT is accepted as fact just as much they believe in Jesus Christ. Also, if you feel offended in any way by my words, it was not meant to be an insult to anyone, but merely what I believe to be the truth.

So you can take it any way you like, but my words were not intended with any malice or harm in any way. For if I am right (and I believe I am), then it is merely the truth. However, sometimes people do not like hearing the truth (for various reasons).

In either case, may God bless you.
And please do not take my belief about as to why I think people believe in ECT personally...

I would suggest that you not make posts personal by making blanket statements about what people believe and why they believe it. An example of a less controversial way of saying what you did, "Many people I have known believe X and and don't appear to have studied their beliefs in scripture."
.....As for people who do not believe as you do, I suggest you not state or imply that they have not prayed for understanding when reading scripture. Virtually every heterodox group around; LDS, JW. WWCG, SDA, OP, UPCI, INC, UU, UR etc. all claim that they have prayed about it and they know, that they know they are right and all others are wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

People can make claims that they are correct and that others cannot see. But the real proof in the pudding is the testimony of Scripture and real life (that backs it up). Most of the time, people believe in things that are just not based on

the real world. They cannot illustrate their belief using a real world example (While this is not the case for people who believe in something that is true, though).
ECT is a major problem because nobody can make a real world example

out of it to show how it is loving, just, fair, and or good. Yet, Jesus and even the Canaanite woman were able to illustrate spiritual truth by using real world examples (i.e. parables)...

Where is any of this a requirement in scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

Well, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that teaches the Trinity point blank. But if you most know, Luke 23:4 says,

Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people,
"I find no fault in this man."​

Clearly Pilate was using the words "in this" in reference to a person within a particular direction here; And Pilate was not using the words "in this" in reference to his being inside the body of Jesus;

What was your purpose for mentioning 1 John 5:7? Is this some kind of joke? Do you truly not understand the difference between these two verses? Here they are diagrammed.
"I am...in this flame" and "I see...in this man"
.........\tormented. . . . . . . . . . . . . \no fault
Your analogy might be credible if Pilate had used the verb "in" instead of "see." But there is no grammatical way you can make Luke 23:4 support your interpretation that the rich man was only near not actually in the flame. And as I have said, more than once before, all of the native Greek speaking ECF who refer to Lazarus and the rich man considered it literal and that the rich man was literally in the flame being tormented.

In addition, clearly "toutō" (τούτῳ) in Luke 23:4 and "tautē" (ταύτῃ) in Luke 16:24 (for the English word "this") have a close relationship with each other linguistically, too.

And that is totally irrelevant concerning the translation of "en."

The Bible says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6).
Jesus judges certain churches as needing to repent so as to get their heart right with Him in Revelation 2 thru Revelation 3.

Not relevant to any point I am discussing.

While this may not be the parallel you are looking for exactly, but there is a loose parallel between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (

Luke 16:19-31) and Abraham's story in Genesis 18.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us

that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

This is major grasping at straws. The phrase "lift up" with the word "eyes" occurs fifteen times in the Bible and all of them are equally irrelevant to "lift up his eyes" Luk 16:24.

The word "sleep" being used directly in reference to "death" is one clue.
15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive

and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and

the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
But I suspect this is a study that one should deeply do with no biased pre-suppositions with the Lord's help.

And your point is?

The Bible is not an exhaustive account of everybody's life. We do not know the end fate of select believers in the New Testament but we can make reasonable assumptions that many of them were saved based on their faithfulness to the Lord and the important part they play in Scripture.

This does not appear to address anything I posted.

It doesn't have to. The word "death" already implies that whatever is cast into the second death dies. For "death" means to "die." Death does not mean alive. You are attempting to make this into a metaphor when there is no cause for such a thing. You are also ignoring the fact that there is a "first death" and that it is obviously related to

the "second death", too. So this would be two strikes against you in your interpretation. For the context does not suggest that this is a metaphorical death. We know fires burn up things and can cause the death of beings or creatures within our physical realm. We would need a good reason in the context to assume that this was different.

I did not state or imply that anything was metaphorical. I am ignoring no facts at all. You are ignoring or talking around the points I made. Either "the second death" means a literal second death or it does not. But there are three living entities, one of whom, the false prophet, is a human being, are thrown alive, not dead, into the LoF. They have not died a first time and they do not die a "second death," they are tormented day and night forever. So evidently being thrown into the LoF does not automatically mean that it results in death.

Death and hell are spirits.
For it is written...
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with

hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8).
But even the spirit known as "death" will have his end and be no more.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Corinthians 15:26).

I agree but the angel of death and the demon of hell being thrown into the LoF does not mean the end of physical death. Therefore Rev 6:8 has no bearing on 1 Cor 15:26

So then you believe that certain OT saints will be stuck on this old Earth within the promised land forever and ever while the rest of the saints are on the new Earth?
For it is written...

"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever" (Jeremiah 7:7).​

​

What? What does this verse have to do with revelation?
[quoteDo you believe the city of Edom today is still burning and that it's smoke is still going up forever? (See Isaiah 34:10).[/quote]
Irrelevant!

As for the beast and the false prophet: These are demons who have tormented mankind for thousands of years. They will inhabit physical human bodies on the Earth (Whereby when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, their bodies will be immediately destroyed or burned up - that then forces their demonic spirit out). This would then

mean their demonic spirit will be tormented for a thousand years because they tormented mankind for a very long time.

A fantastic tale which is not stated in scripture.

I already did. Matthew 10:28 says we are to fear Jesus who can destroy both body and soul in hell (i.e. Gehenna). This word "destroy" is tied to us being told not to fear the one who can destroy the body. Obviously the person on this Earth who can destroy the body only is not going to endlessly keep us alive for all time.

Repeating this over and over does not make it say that God has or will "destroy" any souls in hell.

Well, hades cannot be Gehenna. For hades was cast into the Lake of Fire.
And obviously destruction happens in the place called the "Second Death."
So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
Unless of course, you don't want to see it or you don't want it to be true.

Which hades was cast into the LoF; hades the grave, hades the place of departed spirits or hades the angel/demon which accompanied the angel of death, Rev 6:8? Destruction does not obviously happen in the place called the "Second Death." The devil, beast and false prophet are cast in to the LoF but they are not destroyed instead they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There are many verses that talk about the fire that consumes in Scripture. But the Bible is not a book that is going to hit a person over the head about a particular truth. It is a spiritual book and many of it's meanings are hidden (Even to professing believers).

And there are two verses in which fire does not destroy, Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26-27. If God so wills, fire does not destroy.

The Lake of Fire being called the Second Death is in reference to wicked humans in Revelation 21:8 and not demons. But yes, even the devil will be destroyed (See verse 18 in Ezekiel 28:12-18 and see verse 19 in Isaiah 14:12-19)

...

Ezek 28:18 has nothing to do with the devil it says that the king of Tyrus, vs. 12, will be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him.
Isa 14:19 is not about the devil. It is about the death of the king of Babylon, vs. 4, who dies and goes down to sheol.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would suggest that you not make posts personal by making blanket statements about what people believe and why they believe it. An example of a less controversial way of saying what you did, "Many people I have known believe X and and don't appear to have studied their beliefs in scripture."
.....As for people who do not believe as you do, I suggest you not state or imply that they have not prayed for understanding when reading scripture. Virtually every heterodox group around; LDS, JW. WWCG, SDA, OP, UPCI, INC, UU, UR etc. all claim that they have prayed about it and they know, that they know they are right and all others are wrong.

See, this is the problem. You read some Christian book somewhere telling you that all religions believe this and Christianity believes this. I know. I used to read them myself. But it doesn't always work like that. Yes, JW and LDS among others are cults and are wrong. But to say that something is not true based on guilt by association is simply not true (in every case), either. People can believe true things even when they are in a false religion. For surely you do not believe the Trinity is false just because the RCC believes in it, do you? So the argument always comes back to Scripture and seeing if you can make a parable or real world example out of your belief.


...


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

people believe in things that are just not based on
the real world. They cannot illustrate their belief using a real world example

Where is any of this a requirement in scripture?

Our Lord desires us to follow Him, yes? We are to immitate Him, yes? Are you saying Jesus did not illustrate spiritual truth by using real world examples in the New Testament? Would not your refusing to make parables to illustrate spiritual truth be a refusal to imitate Christ in this particular instance?

ECT is a major problem because nobody can show how it is loving, just, fair, and or good.

Where is any of this a requirement in scripture?

Where is it a requirement to show how our faith and beliefs are loving, just, and good? I will pretend that I didn't hear that. For are we not promoters of the goodness of God and the love of God, and the fair justice of God (whereby we can know His judgments)? Is not God loving, fair, just, and good?



...

 

[rjs330]

Our Lord desires us to follow Him, yes? We are to immitate Him, yes? Are you saying Jesus did not illustrate spiritual truth by using real world examples in the New Testament? Would not your refusing to make parables to illustrate spiritual truth be a refusal to imitate Christ in this particular instance?




Where is it a requirement to show how our faith and beliefs are loving, just, and good? I will pretend that I didn't hear that. For are we not promoters of the goodness of God and the love of God, and the fair justice of God (whereby we can know His judgments)? Is not God loving, fair, just, and good?



...

Yes God,is fair living, just and good.
But the Lord rules forever! He assumes his throne for the sake of justice. He will establish justice in the world rightly; he will judge all people fairly.
Psalms 9:7‭-‬8 CEB
http://bible.com/37/psa.9.7-8.CEB

Therefore when Jesus says

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Get away from me, you who will receive terrible things. Go into the unending fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41 CEB
http://bible.com/37/mat.25.41.CEB

He is being fair good and just. Because HE is the only,one who understands what is fair good and just.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

​

What was your purpose for mentioning 1 John 5:7? Is this some kind of joke? Do you truly not understand the difference between these two verses? Here they are diagrammed.
"I am...in this flame" and "I see...in this man"
.........tormented. . . . . . . . . . . . . no fault
Your analogy might be credible if Pilate had used the verb "in" instead of "see." But there is no grammatical way you can make Luke 23:4 support your interpretation that the rich man was only near not actually in the flame. And as I have said, more than once before, all of the native Greek speaking ECF who refer to Lazarus and the rich man considered it literal and that the rich man was literally in the flame being tormented.

And that is totally irrelevant concerning the translation of "en."

Not relevant to any point I am discussing.

​

This is major grasping at straws. The phrase "lift up" with the word "eyes" occurs fifteen times in the Bible and all of them are equally irrelevant to "lift up his eyes" Luk 16:24.

And your point is?

This does not appear to address anything I posted.

I did not state or imply that anything was metaphorical. I am ignoring no facts at all. You are ignoring or talking around the points I made. Either "the second death" means a literal second death or it does not. But there are three living entities, one of whom, the false prophet, is a human being, are thrown alive, not dead, into the LoF. They have not died a first time and they do not die a "second death," they are tormented day and night forever. So evidently being thrown into the LoF does not automatically mean that it results in death.

I agree but the angel of death and the demon of hell being thrown into the LoF does not mean the end of physical death. Therefore Rev 6:8 has no bearing on 1 Cor 15:26

​

What? What does this verse have to do with revelation?
Do you believe the city of Edom today is still burning and that it's smoke is still going up forever? (See Isaiah 34:10).
Irrelevant!

A fantastic tale which is not stated in scripture.

Repeating this over and over does not make it say that God has or will "destroy" any souls in hell.

Which hades was cast into the LoF; hades the grave, hades the place of departed spirits or hades the angel/demon which accompanied the angel of death, Rev 6:8? Destruction does not obviously happen in the place called the "Second Death." The devil, beast and false prophet are cast in to the LoF but they are not destroyed instead they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And there are two verses in which fire does not destroy, Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26-27. If God so wills, fire does not destroy.

Ezek 28:18 has nothing to do with the devil it says that the king of Tyrus, vs. 12, will be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him.
Isa 14:19 is not about the devil. It is about the death of the king of Babylon, vs. 4, who dies and goes down to sheol.

Pretty much you are just shaking your head in disagreement with your words here and your not offering any substantial evidence in Scripture to convince me and or another Conditional immortality Proponent to think any differently. So there is no purpse in giving a rebuttal here.

As for fire not burning others in Scripture: As I have mentioned before, here upon this Earth, those who were not burned by fire were not examples of the wicked burning for all eternity but they are examples of those who are holy or righteous by not being hurt by the fire.


..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes God,is fair living, just and good.
But the Lord rules forever! He assumes his throne for the sake of justice. He will establish justice in the world rightly; he will judge all people fairly.
Psalms 9:7‭-‬8 CEB
http://bible.com/37/psa.9.7-8.CEB

Therefore when Jesus says

If you believe in ECT, you really cannot explain how God is fair, just, and good in torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed here upon this Earth. Unless of course you wouldn't mind a dictator today torturing your own children for the rest of their lives for committing small and petty crimes within his country of course.

...

 

[rjs330]

If you believe in ECT, you really cannot explain how God is fair, just, and good in torturing people way beyond the crimes that they committed. Unless of course you wouldn't mind a dictator today torturing your children for the rest of their lives for committing small and petty crimes in his country of course.

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God does not say that sin is a petty crime. He says that the heart of man is exceedingly wicked. He also says there is none righteous. All are in rebellion to God. It is against scripture to imply that the wickedness of man is petty.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God does not say that sin is a petty crime. He says that the heart of man is exceedingly wicked. He also says there is none righteous. All are in rebellion to God. It is against scripture to imply that the wickedness of man is petty.

But what you believe is overkill and monstrous and it is not justice. God is not sadistic or unfair in His Judgments. Sin will be punished. But it will be punished fairly. See Luke 12:47-48.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Again, it is why you and no other ECT Proponent cannot explain the goodness of God by his torturing people alive for all eternity. You make sin out to be more evil than it really is. I do not see people sinning against God for all time. I also do not believe the Scriptures teach that God is petty enough to torture His creation for all time (for a finite amount of crimes committed), either. That is just cruel and sadistic. You really haven't thought about it in a real world context before. Folks here are just reading words on a page and drawng the wrong conclusion. They say it is faith, but is actually anti-faith because we all know deep down that God is love and God is good in everything that He does. So sorry. Torturing people alive in flames for all eternity is not the picture that comes to my mind when I think how God is love and how God is good.


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[Der Alte]

See, this is the problem. You read some Christian book somewhere telling you that all religions believe this and Christianity believes this. I know. I used to read them myself. But it doesn't always work like that. Yes, JW and LDS among others are cults and are wrong.

But to say that something is not true based on guilt by association is simply not true (in every case), either. People can believe true things even when they are in a false religion. For surely you do not believe the Trinity is false just because the RCC believes in it, do you? So the argument always comes back to Scripture and seeing

if you can make a parable or real world example out of your belief.

There you go again insulting someone presuming to know what I have and have not done. I know what JWs and LDS teach because I have studied their primary sources. From the LDS, including the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, A Mighty Work and a Wonder, History of the Church vol 1 and 2 and JW writings including What does the Bible Really Teach, Reasoning from the Scriptures, Kingdom Interlinear Translation and The JW Library CD and other writings. Everything I listed I have in my own library and some are very difficult to acquire. The groups have writings they don't want outsiders to see. I wrote a graduate paper on the LDS. I don't rely on second hand information. You are correct people in a heterodox group can believe true things but in most such groups if one does not follow the party line they are disfellowshipped i.e. kicked out.
.....No, it does not come down to making a parable or real world example. There is no requirement in scripture to do so. That is something you made up.