The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Der Alte]

Pretty much you are just shaking your head in disagreement with your words here and your not offering any substantial evidence in Scripture to convince me and or another Conditional immortality Proponent to think any differently. So there is no purpse in giving a rebuttal here.

Cop out! I refuted everything you argued and you blow it off with two sentences.

As for fire not burning others in Scripture: As I have mentioned before, here upon this Earth, those who were not burned by fire were not examples of the wicked burning for all eternity but they are examples of those who are holy or righteous by not being hurt by the fire.
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Your reasoning is irrelevant. Where does scripture say God will not use fire any way He wants to?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There you go again insulting someone presuming to know what I have and have not done. I know what JWs and LDS teach because I have studied their primary sources. From the LDS, including the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, A Mighty Work and a Wonder, History of the Church vol 1 and 2 and JW writings including What does the Bible Really Teach, Reasoning from the Scriptures, Kingdom Interlinear Translation and The JW Library CD and other writings. Everything I listed I have in my own library and some are very difficult to acquire. The groups have writings they don't want outsiders to see. I wrote a graduate paper on the LDS. I don't rely on second hand information. You are correct people in a heterodox group can believe true things but in most such groups if one does not follow the party line they are disfellowshipped i.e. kicked out.

Well, I am not impressed that you read a ton of books versus just one. Besides, this part of the discussion is off topic and it does not apply because even false groups can believe correct things (as I said).

No, it does not come down to making a parable or real world example. There is no requirement in scripture to do so. That is something you made up.

So you disagree with Scripture that we are to imitate Christ?

Matthew 16:24, Luke 6:40, Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 2:21, 1 John 2:6.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Cop out! I refuted everything you argued and you blow it off with two sentences.

Your reasoning is irrelevant. Where does scripture say God will not use fire any way He wants to?

If you say so.

Anyways, have a nice night;
And may God bless you.


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[Der Alte]

Well, I am not impressed that you read a ton of books versus just one. Besides, this part of the discussion is off topic and it does not apply because even false groups can believe correct things (as I said).

You made an accusation and when I show you how wrong you are you suddenly blow it off. Don't make accusations and you won't be embarrassed when you are proven wrong. And what is the relevance that a few people in heterodox groups believe some correct things? Does that somehow negate all the false things they believe.

So you disagree with Scripture that we are to imitate Christ?
Matthew 16:24, Luke 6:40, Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 2:21, 1 John 2:6.

More of those personal attack false accusations! Where did I say anything remotely like that? Let's take your argument a step or two farther. Have you walked on water, healed the sick, fed a few thousand people with only a few loaves of bread and a few fish? Have you been to Samaria lately? None of your proof texts states or implies that believers should verify anything with parables.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, my words were intended with no malice or harm towards you. But if you are offended, you have to realize that within Biblical Christianity, God encourages us not to hold grudges and to forgive others. So if you thought I hurt you with my words, you must make peace with me about it by loving me and forgiving me instead.

Anyways, I said what I did because I believed you read a book as to why you believe the way you do in regards to other religions. I was not saying you did not read any other books. While I did say you got this information from a book (singular), you cannot jump to conclusions that I am saying that you don't read a lot of books. You are missing the point. You did not gain your knowledge from just being born with it. You had to learn that information by reading. That is what I was getting at. There is nothing wrong with that. But my point is that we have to be careful what we believe (Whether we read one book or whether we read a lot of books).

I prefer to primarily read the Bible and not other books. But that is my personal preference and or belief. That is why I said you read a book on religion (which could have been one out of many) to speak the information that you are saying now.

As for believers doing the miracles of God: Well, the Scriptures say, with God all things are possible. If this was not the case, then Paul and others would not have been able to do miracles, too.

So yes, I believe miracles are possible in my walk with God.
For the LORD has done some amazing things in my life so far;
I am not about to turn back now.
And I am not going to doubt what He can or cannot do in my life.

As for parable making and imitating Christ: Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own and Jesus commended her for her faith for it. So I would say that parable making is a thing that God can commend other believers for, as well.

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[razzelflabben]

If you believe in ECT, you really cannot explain how God is fair, just, and good in torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed here upon this Earth. Unless of course you wouldn't mind a dictator today torturing your own children for the rest of their lives for committing small and petty crimes within his country of course.

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I can through scripture but because you didn't like that I was put on ignore so that you could continue to boast that no one has done so...how sad that you are not willing to be conformed to scripture.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again, my words were intended with no malice or harm towards you. But if you are offended, you have to realize that within Biblical Christianity, God encourages us not to hold grudges and to forgive others. So if you thought I hurt you with my words, you must make peace with me about it by loving me and forgiving me instead.

you got that backwards, which might explain a lot of your false assumptions in scripture. When you offend someone it is your burden to reconcile. They must forgive, that is true, but it is on you to offer reconciliation.

Anyways, I said what I did because I believed you read a book as to why you believe the way you do in regards to other religions. I was not saying you did not read any other books. While I did say you got this information from a book (singular), you cannot jump to conclusions that I am saying that you don't read a lot of books. You are missing the point. You did not gain your knowledge from just being born with it. You had to learn that information by reading. That is what I was getting at. There is nothing wrong with that. But my point is that we have to be careful what we believe (Whether we read one book or whether we read a lot of books).

yep, the Bible is the only book needed to understand eternal torment for the unbeliever.


As for parable making and imitating Christ: Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own and Jesus commended her for her faith for it. So I would say that parable making is a thing that God can commend other believers for, as well.

...[/QUOTE]Here is the thing about parables....where other posters are right, it is NOT a requirement for understanding scripture, it is also true that when we actually know and understand what God is saying to us, it will be identified as truth no matter how we look at it. Which is exactly why you put me on ignore, because you couldn't make an argument about what I said I found out about hell when I studied it in scripture. which testifies to the unwillingness of you to be conformed to the word of God.

 

[Major1]

Again, my words were intended with no malice or harm towards you. But if you are offended, you have to realize that within Biblical Christianity, God encourages us not to hold grudges and to forgive others. So if you thought I hurt you with my words, you must make peace with me about it by loving me and forgiving me instead.

Anyways, I said what I did because I believed you read a book as to why you believe the way you do in regards to other religions. I was not saying you did not read any other books. While I did say you got this information from a book (singular), you cannot jump to conclusions that I am saying that you don't read a lot of books. You are missing the point. You did not gain your knowledge from just being born with it. You had to learn that information by reading. That is what I was getting at. There is nothing wrong with that. But my point is that we have to be careful what we believe (Whether we read one book or whether we read a lot of books).

I prefer to primarily read the Bible and not other books. But that is my personal preference and or belief. That is why I said you read a book on religion (which could have been one out of many) to speak the information that you are saying now.

As for believers doing the miracles of God: Well, the Scriptures say, with God all things are possible. If this was not the case, then Paul and others would not have been able to do miracles, too.

So yes, I believe miracles are possible in my walk with God.
For the LORD has done some amazing things in my life so far;
I am not about to turn back now.
And I am not going to doubt what He can or cannot do in my life.

As for parable making and imitating Christ: Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own and Jesus commended her for her faith for it. So I would say that parable making is a thing that God can commend other believers for, as well.

...

So then do you also believe that you can raise the dead as is recorded in Mark?
Can you drink strychnine and live?
Can you be bitten by a rattlesnake and survive?

That is a package deal listed in Mark 16 so it is a valid question.

 

[Major1]

Again, my words were intended with no malice or harm towards you. But if you are offended, you have to realize that within Biblical Christianity, God encourages us not to hold grudges and to forgive others. So if you thought I hurt you with my words, you must make peace with me about it by loving me and forgiving me instead.

Anyways, I said what I did because I believed you read a book as to why you believe the way you do in regards to other religions. I was not saying you did not read any other books. While I did say you got this information from a book (singular), you cannot jump to conclusions that I am saying that you don't read a lot of books. You are missing the point. You did not gain your knowledge from just being born with it. You had to learn that information by reading. That is what I was getting at. There is nothing wrong with that. But my point is that we have to be careful what we believe (Whether we read one book or whether we read a lot of books).

I prefer to primarily read the Bible and not other books. But that is my personal preference and or belief. That is why I said you read a book on religion (which could have been one out of many) to speak the information that you are saying now.

As for believers doing the miracles of God: Well, the Scriptures say, with God all things are possible. If this was not the case, then Paul and others would not have been able to do miracles, too.

So yes, I believe miracles are possible in my walk with God.
For the LORD has done some amazing things in my life so far;
I am not about to turn back now.
And I am not going to doubt what He can or cannot do in my life.

As for parable making and imitating Christ: Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own and Jesus commended her for her faith for it. So I would say that parable making is a thing that God can commend other believers for, as well.

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My friend, the Scriptures tell us that it is up to YOU to make reconciliation and ask for foregivness.

I am new here, but if you got this simple doctrine so wrong, what does it say about the ones on eternal torment????

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My friend, the Scriptures tell us that it is up to YOU to make reconciliation and ask for forgiveness

First, I don't believe I did anything wrong but express my thoughts (that were not intended with any harm). I also was trying to make peace with him and not escalate the situation in any way. For after I noticed he was not happy with me, I was careful to use words that could not be read the wrong way.

Second, the words of forgiveness and reconciliation apply to all believers. I was in no way implying that this did not apply to me (if somebody were to do wrong towards me and I were to hold a grudge - which for me is very rare).

I am new here, but if you got this simple doctrine so wrong,

What doctrine are you talking about?

what does it say about the ones on eternal torment????

There is more than one doctrine on Eternal Torment?


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[Bible Highlighter]

So then do you also believe that you can raise the dead as is recorded in Mark?

Did not Paul raise a dead person to life? Did not the disciples?

If God were to use me or another believer as a vessel in doing this, then... "yes." For if it was God's will and it gave Him glory and I do not see how it is not possible. There is no verse saying that God cannot do miracles thru His people anymore.

Can you drink strychnine and live?

Depends on the situation. If somebody put it in my water without my knowledge and I accidentally drank it because I was super thirsty, I believe God could protect me (if it gave Him glory and it was according to His plan).

But if I were to intentionally drink of it, that would be tempting the Lord (Which is a sin). So I wouldn't be protected in that instance.

Can you be bitten by a rattlesnake and survive?

That is a package deal listed in Mark 16 so it is a valid question.

Was not Paul bitten and yet he lived? So that would be a... "yes" again.


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[SkyWriting]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

Would you more miserable if you were turned over coals
or
if you have run over your baby sister and killed her?

I suggest, as does scripture, that "torment" or "being tormented"
by your sins is worse than being "grilled open pit style."

A second reason is that "being grilled" you have somebody else
who is grilling you, to hate or blame.

I suggest, having nobody else to blame is worse. That would be Hell.
For some of us, physical pain is not that big a deal. I could likely take
pain till I pass out. The idea of massive pain doesn't frighten me.

 

[SkyWriting]

No thanks.

Been there, done that. Waste of time.

If you would not think of throwing your own child into a fire, why do you think God would?

End of story.

Becasue it simply means "end". Not torture.

 

[Major1]

Did not Paul raise a dead person to life? Did not the disciples?

If God were to use me or another believer as a vessel in doing this, then... "yes." For if it was God's will and it gave Him glory and I do not see how it is not possible. There is no verse saying that God cannot do miracles thru His people anymore.



Depends on the situation. If somebody put it in my water without my knowledge and I accidentally drank it because I was super thirsty, I believe God could protect me (if it gave Him glory and it was according to His plan).

But if I were to intentionally drink of it, that would be tempting the Lord (Which is a sin). So I wouldn't be protected in that instance.



Was not Paul bitten and yet he lived? So that would be a... "yes" again.


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The point is that YOU have not raised the dead and YOU have not survived a rattlesnake bite and YOU have not ingested any poison and lived.

you have just agreed that Paul WAS AN APOSTLE and the apostles were given the same ability as Jesus.

YOU are not an Apostle and neither is anyone else. Therefore those sign gifts and the things we see today are invalid.

It is just that simple my brother.

 

[Major1]

Would you more miserable if you were turned over coals
or
if you have run over your baby sister and killed her?

I suggest, as does scripture, that "torment" or "being tormented"
by your sins is worse than being "grilled open pit style."

A second reason is that "being grilled" you have somebody else
who is grilling you, to hate or blame.

I suggest, having nobody else to blame is worse. That would be Hell.
For some of us, physical pain is not that big a deal. I could likely take
pain till I pass out. The idea of massive pain doesn't frighten me.

Interesting thoughts. However, I promise you that if your hand was placed over an open fire, the only thing that you will be focused on is YOUR physical pain.

 

[Der Alte]

See, this is the problem. [1]You read some Christian book somewhere telling you that all religions believe this and Christianity believes this. I know. I used to read them myself.

But it doesn't always work like that. Yes, JW and LDS among others are cults and are wrong.

[2]But to say that something is not true based on guilt by association is simply not true (in every case), either....

...Anyways, I said what I did because I believed you read a book as to why you believe the way you do in regards to other religions. I was not saying you did not read any other books. While I did say you got this information from a book (singular), you cannot jump to conclusions that I am saying that you don't read a lot of books.

You are missing the point. You did not gain your knowledge from just being born with it. You had to learn that information by reading

I quoted your post again with the accusations I was challenging. It was not about whether I read a lot of books or not. The accusations were, 1. I formed my opinions about heterodox groups e.g. JW and LDS from reading Christian books. 2. That I said or implied that someone was guilty by association. My point which seems to have gone right over your head. I learned about various heterodox groups by reading their own writings not second hand information from Christian books and I said nothing which could reasonably be construed as saying someone was guilty by association..

 

[Major1]

First, I don't believe I did anything wrong but express my thoughts (that were not intended with any harm). I also was trying to make peace with him and not escalate the situation in any way. For after I noticed he was not happy with me, I was careful to use words that could not be read the wrong way.

Second, the words of forgiveness and reconciliation apply to all believers. I was in no way implying that this did not apply to me (if somebody were to do wrong towards me and I were to hold a grudge - which for me is very rare).



What doctrine are you talking about?



There is more than one doctrine on Eternal Torment?


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The doctrine of reconciliation my friend.

No sir. There is only ONE Bible doctrine on Eternal Torment. There are several doctrines made up by men but only ONE Bible doctrine.

Matt. 18:15.....“If your brother sins against you, (YOU) go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother".

 

[Major1]

Becasue it simply means "end". Not torture.

Luke 16:24.....
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Rev. 20:10......
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I am always amazed at how the simple, easy to understand Word of God is so easily explained away.

 

[razzelflabben]

the real problem as I see it, is that the non eternal torment crowd removes God's nature. In fact, the only way to keep God's nature in tact as I can see it is to understand eternal torment as scripture tells us about it.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am always amazed at how the simple, easy to understand Word of God is so easily explained away.

So there is light and dark on the lake of fire?
It's hard to imagine a dark lake of fire.
I was trying to find the lake of fire as well below:

The New Jerusalem
…22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Where is the "dark"?