The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Achilles6129]

No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.

No? Why not? That's exactly what the passage says. If "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" then they suffer forever.

 

[Achilles6129]

We're talking about 'character' issues. Does punishment of children help purify their character?

Do you believe that those that go to hell are the children of God? Scripture calls them children of Satan.

Don't know what to tell you other than 'dueling sources;;

Well, if a source is mistaken it's not really a big deal. It's one letter, so it really doesn't matter.

And, according to my source the Latin purus derived from the Greek pyr/pur.

Etymology of pure « English Words of (Unexpected) Greek Origin.
https://ewonago.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/etymology-of-pure/
Mar 7, 2009 - Etymology of pure. Pure comes from the Latin purus, which derives from the Greek pyr/pur (fire, πύρ; gen: puros, πυρός), as initially fire was ...

Doesn't matter, and some blogger wrote that, it's not from a dictionary. I am unable to find a dictionary that says that purus comes from the Greek word for fire, but it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant because the fire in hell tortures and doesn't purify, and this is made clear by the Bible.

Tell that to God. It was He who didn't "predestine, draw, call and ordain to believe" in this age.

Ah. So you don't believe that they're culpable in this age, then?

But you just said in your first sentence that the fire described in scripture inflicts punishment. So why were the disciples being punished with literal fire for receiving the Holy Spirit? What sense does that make to you?

They weren't. Fire obviously has different functions. In the case of the wicked, it inflicts punishment.

And what was 'punishing' about the flaming bush of God, which Moses encountered? A bush where God said "Take off your shoes. Why? I think it's because the fire of God MAKES HOLY.

Well, here are just a few examples of the fire of God punishing:

"9 Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him, and behold, he was sitting on the top of the hill. And he said to him, “O man of God, the king says, ‘Come down.’” 10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty." 2 Kings 1:9-10 (NASB)

"9 Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire." Lev. 21:9 (NASB)

"Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1-2 (NASB)

Incidentally, in the above passage (all annihilationists should note this) the fire of YHWH "consumed" Nadab and Abihu, yet we find out later that it didn't actually destroy their bodies at all. This means that "consume" in the above passage obviously means something dreadful happened to them, but it's not in the context of the annihilation of their bodies.

"4 Moses called also to Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come forward, carry your relatives away from the front of the sanctuary to the outside of the camp.” 5 So they came forward and carried them still in their tunics to the outside of the camp, as Moses had said." Lev. 10:4-5 (NASB)

Obviously if they had been totally annihilated they could not have been carried out.

 

[Achilles6129]

Again, your original post doesn't make sense. You are saying that the wicked are murdering God for all eternity. Do they have a time machine whereby they are attempting to kill God thru out all eternity or time? Makes for a nice science fiction novel but it doesn't sound like reality to me. Yes, a person who hates his brother is like a murderer (1 John 3:15), but the crime for someone hating their brother should not be infinite just because the individual (they are committing the crime against) is immortal. For example: The Marvels comic book character named Wolverine is basically immortal (because he has a mutant healing factor). So are you saying that crimes committed against Wolverine should be more extreme or for all time just because he lives longer than others? Or are you saying because God is more important than others is the reason why they should be punished for all eternity? For example: You might say that the crime committed against a leader of a country is more severe and it is justified because they are more important. But even the crime against such an individual would have it's limits, though. The punishment still has to ultimately fit the crime no matter who is the recipient of the sin or crime. It's what fair justice is all about.
...

This is not representative of what I've said in the OP. I've made it as clear as I can - if you continue to misunderstand then there's nothing that I can do.

 

[Der Alte]

It's the same as the word "torment."

Wrong! "Torture" and "torment" are not the same in English.

 

[Achilles6129]

Wrong! "Torture" and "torment" are not the same in English.

They're synonyms.

 

[mark kennedy]

No? Why not? That's exactly what the passage says. If "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" then they suffer forever.

Because that's bot what it says it says the smoke if their torment rises forever, that doesn't equivocate with them suffering forever.

 

[mmksparbud]

there is only one eternal life that I know of...there is an eternal death and since you refuse to address anything I am saying, I'll pass on reposting all of my responses. they are after all a matter of record.

Me, too. But if you are in a conscious state of torment forever, then you are conscious, alive, forever. And you can play footsie all you want with "conscious", "alive" --whatever. If you're being tormented forever and are aware of it, you are conscious and alive. And you will not convince me otherwise.

 

[Achilles6129]

Because that's bot what it says it says the smoke if their torment rises forever, that doesn't equivocate with them suffering forever.

Why wouldn't it?

 

[mmksparbud]

there is only one eternal life that I know of...there is an eternal death and since you refuse to address anything I am saying, I'll pass on reposting all of my responses. they are after all a matter of record. as I have repeatedly told you, scripture says that hell is the consequence of sin, not some punishment. So if you expect to have a dialogue with me, you need to reflect what I am saying to you in some fashion or other. In fact, I took one of the passages that supposedly supported the other versions of hell and showed in context not only that man was immortal according to the text but that hell is the consequence of sin. Now repeatedly I have asked you to show what is immoral about hell being a consequence of sin, just like the analogies I have given of stubbing a toe or losing a finger and you refuse to answer those questions so that you can come here and act like the only version of ECT is your version...no thank you...If you can't respond to me and what I said, then stop quoting me and addressing things I didn't say and don't believe. I pointed this out long ago, but that also means that they do die, that is how the verse reads. Just because God doesn't take pleasure in their death doesn't mean it doesn't happen....btw, do you know whose death He did take pleasure in? It stumps a lot of people...Look at Isaiah 53 for the answer and then tell me how out of character it is for God to be just. Cause if you are responding to me, what you are responding to is me saying that God is just and as such He is love, mercy, compassion, grace, etc. lol we already looked up the translation of the word there and showed that to be a flawed translation... and???? as a consequence of sin there is nothing in it that is contrary to God's character and you have repeatedly testified to that by refusing to address how it is...and????I said that long long ago...not sure what you point is and btw, the way you wrote that paragraph I am not sure you even know what you are trying to say. Remember when I said that "hell fire" as a reason to believe does more damage than good in my opinion? Remember when I said that we should teach hell fire in proportions equal to that of Christ? Remember when I said that hell is not taught in scripture as a "preventive measure" for sin or unbelief? Remember...ah, that is just it, you don't remember so you feel justified to twist what I said and believe into something I didn't say and don't believe so that you can attack me for your inability to write a paragraph that is coherent....that is a very righteous way to handle your opinion, don't you think?

"Consequence"--who the heck cares whether you call it consequence, punishment, reward, tidily winks---Jesus called it punishment and that is good enough for me. Torment is being done to billions of people forever! Call it what you want. Who said hell is a preventive measure--I didn't. I also never said that because God said He takes no pleasure in the wicked dying that they do not die! I said If he doesn't even want to have them killed---what makes you think He would want to torment them forever instead??
As for Isaiah 53--I've heard that argument before--Isa 53:10 AndG2532 the lord G2962 willedG1014 to cleanseG2511 himG1473 of theG3588 beating.G4127 IfG1437 you should offerG1325 forG4012 a sin offering G266 the thing G3588 for your life,G5590 G147
It comes as no surprise you bring that one up. If you think that God was up there just pleased as punch over His only Son being tortured---enjoy yourself with that thought. I happen to think otherwise, I happen to think He hurt, physically hurt from it, I happen to think it hurt Him to see Him for 33 1/2 years in other than glory and splendor. But they both knew the end result.
Yes, God is love and mercy--but He is also just. And sin demands justice. It will be paid, "according to their works.

 

[mmksparbud]

No? Why not? That's exactly what the passage says. If "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" then they suffer forever.

Smoke---
NOUN

1. a visible suspension of carbon or other particles in air, typically one emitted from a burning substance:
   "bonfire smoke"
   synonyms: fumes · exhaust · gas · vapor · smog
   • an act of smoking tobacco:
     "I'm dying for a smoke"
   • informal
     a cigarette or cigar.

VERB

1. emit smoke or visible vapor:
   "heat the oil until it just smokes" ·
   smolder · emit smoke · reek

Smoke goes up into the air, and it goes up and up and up, and it travels wherever the wind blows---We get smoke here in Nev. from the California forest fires. Smoke goes up into the air and can linger in the air forever---long after what was burned has gone out--it goes into the atmosphere. I've burned stuff, left some chicken and bones boiling away for broth and forgot---smoke everywhere, the pan was burned to a crisp, threw it out--the smoke stayed in the house for weeks.--I hate cigarette smoke. I've walked into people homes and almost gagged rom the smell though nobody had smoked one for hours.

 

[toLiJC]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

actually the true God intends to save humankind, He prefers not to cause harm/suffering to any human/soul, but nevertheless the causers of harm/suffering risk being punished, because God could also punish such persons in order to make them stop causing harm/suffering to their neighbor(townsman/cohabitant/brother), we all live in the same home, namely the universal creation, so every human is a neighbor(cohabitant) of any other...

Blessings

 

[Der Alte]

Me, too. But if you are in a conscious state of torment forever, then you are conscious, alive, forever. And you can play footsie all you want with "conscious", "alive" --whatever. If you're being tormented forever and are aware of it, you are conscious and alive. And you will not convince me otherwise.

There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT, zoe, bios and psuche. Only zoe is used with aionios. "aionios" not only speaks to the duration but also the quality of "zoe."
.....In addition to Luke 16:19-31 there are two OT passages which depict the wicked dead in sheol moving, speaking etc.
.....In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[mark kennedy]

Why wouldn't it?

Because that's not what it's saying plain and simple. Now I'm not entirely convinced of annilation in perdition but the majority of the proof texts allow for it.

 

[Hillsage]

Do you believe that those that go to hell are the children of God? Scripture calls them children of Satan.

Chapter/verse, please.

Well, if a source is mistaken it's not really a big deal. It's one letter, so it really doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, for most here, that is only true when it's 'their' source that's missing something. Mine was STRONG's

Doesn't matter, and some blogger wrote that, it's not from a dictionary. I am unable to find a dictionary that says that purus comes from the Greek word for fire, but it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant because the fire in hell tortures and doesn't purify, and this is made clear by the Bible.

A bible which is as deep or as shallow as the one reading it and coming to their view of God's nature and character I suppose.

Ah. So you don't believe that they're culpable in this age, then?

As culpable as God made them to be as descendants of Adam. I never asked for the sin nature. DID YOU?

They weren't. Fire obviously has different functions. In the case of the wicked, it inflicts punishment.

Now you're starting to reason, that's good. Fire on the heads of the disciples was GOOD, but why? Fire's function in cooking wieners is good, but cooking people is not good.

There is a difference between "inflicting punishment" and endless torture. Endless Torture is not punishment it is an endless, purposeless action of someone with a sadistic and ungodly character....in some of our opinions anyway.

Well, here are just a few examples of the fire of God punishing:

"9 Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him, and behold, he was sitting on the top of the hill. And he said to him, “O man of God, the king says, ‘Come down.’” 10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty." 2 Kings 1:9-10 (NASB)

"9 Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire." Lev. 21:9 (NASB)

"Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1-2 (NASB)

Incidentally, in the above passage (all annihilationists should note this) the fire of YHWH "consumed" Nadab and Abihu, yet we find out later that it didn't actually destroy their bodies at all. This means that "consume" in the above passage obviously means something dreadful happened to them, but it's not in the context of the annihilation of their bodies.

"4 Moses called also to Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come forward, carry your relatives away from the front of the sanctuary to the outside of the camp.” 5 So they came forward and carried them still in their tunics to the outside of the camp, as Moses had said." Lev. 10:4-5 (NASB)

Obviously if they had been totally annihilated they could not have been carried out.

You prove my point. You see God destroying people, I see God destroying wickedness being done by people He made sinners by nature. But God gives hope for ALL sinners in the ages to come and the fulfillment of the plan of the ages. You believe ETERNAL TORTURE for almost ALL, and want me to believe God agrees with you. I don't, of course.

 

[jeager016]

tor·ture1
/ˈtôrCHər/
noun

1. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

tor·ment1

noun

1. severe physical or mental suffering:

For what it's worth.

Doesn't the Bible promise eternal torment, NOT torture?
Isn't that torment everlasting cutting off from God?
I do not subscribe to the notion of a literal hell of fire and torture.
To me "hell" is everlasting cutting off from the sunlight of the
spirit. (God)
To each their own understanding.

 

[mark kennedy]

tor·ture1
/ˈtôrCHər/
noun

1. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

tor·ment1

noun

1. severe physical or mental suffering:

For what it's worth.

Doesn't the Bible promise eternal torment, NOT torture?
Isn't that torment everlasting cutting off from God?
I do not subscribe to the notion of a literal hell of fire and torture.
To me "hell" is everlasting cutting off from the sunlight of the
spirit. (God)
To each their own understanding.

That same word can mean sorrow, torment is too much like tourcher. Mideviel images of sadiomasichistic demons tourchering the fallen were fables. Hell is miserable because it's utter darkness and the expectation of the fires of perdition.

 

[Blade]

A verse says.. does not have every lasting life in him...Every lasting life does not come by good or bad works. It comes by knowing JESUS is lord. We.. you and me have sin and that sin will NOT enter heaven but we will. Its written if we say we have no sin we deceive our selfs and the truth is not in us.

So when that great white throne Judgement happens we will not be judged for we have been. We know Jesus. There are those that are blind. Jesus said..if you were BLIND you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. The BOOKS are open to see who is written in them. Jesus told the 12 dont be so happy demons are subjuect unto you but that your names are written in heaven. <---- this is what gets ANYONE in. Jesus said..I am the WAY... truth...life. Believe in ME and you have ever lasting life.

No one but no one is lost forever unless THEY made the choice. For ALL have a chance. Believe this or not matters not. Im 55 but when I was about 15 or so I asked .prayed one night. How can you send all these people to hell. He answered (oh I wish it happen that way all the time lol) He said.. for God so loved the world.. everyone gets a choice. And He came when ALL were in sin and yet died. So He is REALLY good at what He does. What and who we think should go to (forgive me Father) hell...is not His thinking. He knows the heart. We only see a moment in time and then we pass judgement. He does not. He sees the end from the start.

Man is always wrong .. HE is always right. I PERSONALLY believe it is far easier to be saved then lost. Why do I say that? Because MAN always talks about how EASY how so many will be lost only a few will be saved. And our ways our thinking are not His. Anyway hell is real and there are those that do NOT want God. Satan made the choice.. he new what he was giving up and does NOT want God. So to force someone to be with God forever would be hell for them. I dont know why some KNOW God is real yet still dont want Him.. Father forgive them in Jesus name

 

[Achilles6129]

Because that's not what it's saying plain and simple.

That is what it's saying. Please elaborate.

 

[Neogaia777]

They get eternally their true hearts desire(s) for eternity, or at least, a very, very long time, decided upon and changed or altered or not, in this life...

Only the one(s) who knows the hearts of every individual can judge and know this... We cannot...

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

tor·ture1
/ˈtôrCHər/
noun

1. the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

tor·ment1

noun

1. severe physical or mental suffering:

For what it's worth.

Doesn't the Bible promise eternal torment, NOT torture?
Isn't that torment everlasting cutting off from God?
I do not subscribe to the notion of a literal hell of fire and torture.
To me "hell" is everlasting cutting off from the sunlight of the
spirit. (God)
To each their own understanding.

Then you choose to ignore the verses that state they will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever. You can choose to believe whatever you want. Nowhere does the bible say hell is a "cutting off from the sunlight of the spirit. (God)"
It is either everlasting torment in fire and brimstone or it isn't, we can't go making up our own versions of what it is when the scriptures say what it is.