The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[LionDog1]

I don't think so at all.



Punishment for a crime is related to its seriousness, not to the timespan in which it was committed. The point of the OP was to attempt to show that the seriousness of the offense does indeed merit eternal torture.

Why do you use the word "eternal TORTURE?" [There are no concordance results for eternal "torture" in the KJV.]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its not just retribution, God is eliminating evil completely once and forever. Take those seals in context. The first rider is the world conquerer, followed by world war, famine and plague. This is a bloody infamous rampage. They are avenged in the sixth plague and hid beneath the earth, caves and dens of the rocks. Apparently it's like Pharoh hardening his heart at first and God hardening Pharohs heart later. Like the Canaanites gettin hundreds of years for their iniquity to come to fruition. The armies of the antichrist never repent but many during that time will, its the whole point.

There can be no question that they deserve it but in the end perdition is about ending evil forever. Now we can say its a permanent condition of torment or annilation but to what end would they survive for all eternity? Again it's the paradox of a stone God makes that's too big for him to pick up. Surely if its in God's power to create from nothing it's within his capacity to reduce to nothing. Or is it?

I'm hung up on one verse describing the torment lasting forever. I am looking at annilation for a lot of the same reasons I hold to an ex nihleo (out of nothing) creation. In a word, omnipotence.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The 5th seal is about God's people desiring justice. The answer is the 6th seal (as you said). Yet, while God purifies this Earth of evil by fire after Christ's return (2 Peter 3:10), that does not mean sin will not exist in the Millennium or that the remaining nations will not be tempted by the devil at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ upon this Earth (Revelation 20:1-9).

All evil will be eradicated sometime before the start of the new heavens and new earth as mentioned in Revelation.

Please take note the Bible mentions two different kinds of new heavens and new earths. They are not the same.

New Heavens & New Earth #1
(i.e. the Millennium)
The 1st "New Heavens and New Earth" mentioned in the Old Testament (Isaiah 65:17-25) and by Peter (2 Peter 3:13) is in reference to the Millennium. The Millennium takes place after Christ returns down from out of the clouds whereby He will destroy the remaining nations that will come up against Him. The Millennium also takes place after the Lord purifies this Earh by fire (which is similar to the global flood but it will leave no trace of this world behind; For not even a McDonald's sign will be accidentally found buried in the Earth. For the Earth's upper crust will be burned or turned into liquid hot magma).

New Heavens & New Earth #2
(Final New Heavens & New Earth)
The second "New Heavens & New Earth" as mentioned in Revelation 21:1-4 comes at the end of the Millennium and after the Judgment and eradication of evil. Satan, his minions, and wicked sinners will be no more. So when all evil comes to end forever, the final "New Heavens & New Earth" will arrive for God's people. This will be an entirely different and new planet whereby this planet will be no more.​

Also, back at the 7 year tribulation on this Earth (which is still yet a future event for us after the Pre-Trib Rapture): Well, these saints that were slain or killed for the Word of God and Jesus at the fifth seal are not in caves. They are dead souls crying out for vengeance over how they were murdered (Revelation 6:9-10). Yet, living saints are encouraged to forgive others and to pray and do good towards their enemies.

Anyways, here is a brief chronology of upcoming events:

#1. Pre-Trib Rapture
#2. 7 Year Tribulation

(a) The Day of Lord begins at 6th seal.
(b) Christ's return (Armageddon)
(3rd part of the 6th vial)​

#3. Earth purified by fire (Conclusion of the Day the Lord)
#4. The Millennium
#5. The Judgment seat of Christ
#6. The Great White Throne Judgment
#7. Eradication of devil, demons, & wicked man
#8. The Final New Heavens & New Earth
​

As for the verse you are having trouble with: which verse may I ask is it? Maybe I can help.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

That's what I mean. Those that believe in an immortal soul, will say the word soul does not mean a person, except when it suits them and they claim context. When we do the same thing, and say soul does mean a person and claim context, you guys will say were wrong, it doesn't mean that. I say the soul that sinneth will die, you say that means a person. When I quote
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You still do not believe that Jesus meant the soul will be destroyed even though it says both body and soul. Context is what you claim it to be. I know the word soul can have different meanings. I also have looked up Hebrew and Greek meanings--that is why I believe the way I do. The Hebrew can be incredibly complex, and very different in concept from our modern ideas.

I was all ready to hit the like button until this last part here...as per the discussions on this thread, the question in Matthew 10:28 was not soul but what destruction means. IOW's you are twisting the discussion to make a point which is invalid.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I have been repeatedly told that this is when we were given our immortal souls--even though that verse says no such thing.

then you went off the rail again here where you claim that some of us are claiming when the soul is given. some might or might not be, that has never really been clear in this discussion. what has been clear is the claim that man has body, soul, and spirit and we have been told repeatedly that man doesn't have a soul and spirit, that they are one and the same thing.

Genesis 2:7
and Yhwh the Elohiym molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a living being,

ha'a'dam
the~HUMAN
lê'ne'phesh
to~BEING
hhai'yah
LIVING

Genesis 1:21
and Elohiym fattened the great crocodile and all the living beings the treaders which swarm the waters to their kind, and all the flyers of the wing to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
ne'phesh
BEING

Genesis 1:24
and Elohiym said, the land will bring out living beings to her kind, beasts and treaders and living ones of the land to her kind, and he existed so, ne'phesh
BEING

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/012.html

....In Genesis 2:7 we find that man is a "living soul" and in Genesis 1:21 we find that animals are "living creatures"......these two English phrases were the translations of the same Hebrew phrase - nephesh hhayah. Why would the translators translate nephesh hhayahas "living soul" in one place and "living creatures" in another?
In the Hebrew mind we are composed of multiple parts. The body is the flesh and bones, the vessel. The organs are viewed as the seats of thought (the heart), emotion (the kidneys), intuition (gut), etc. The breath is ones character, what makes a person who they are.
The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind...... some general definitions for them. The body is the flesh, bones and blood, the vessel. The mind is ones thoughts and emotions. The breath is ones character, what makes a person who they are. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self.

I addressed this one sentence for it is what stood out to me.

You should look up the different parts of man as per what scripture says about them...it's very interesting...for example, the heart is also where emotions and determination exist....but what is even more telling is how man is instructed to Love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength....notice we are to love God with all our soul, a soul that some here have tried to claim does NOT exist...how can we Love God with a non existing part of God? Hum?

The way some here read posts it does not surprise me that there is confusion over what scripture really does say about hell. Just saying as a general rule and some things in this post evidence that we aren't listening to one another in an effort to assert our position truth and everyone else false. Thus my call to actually listen, as per scriptures proclaimation to be slow to speak and quick to listen and slow to anger. James 1:19

 

[razzelflabben]

I didn't read through the whole 32 pages, so this could have been covered before.

I see two main problems with eternal hell for all sinners.
The main problem is that eternal life is a gift from Yahweh, not a judgment. John 3:16

the biggest argument against this is that eternal death is different than eternal life. IOW's the soul/spirit of man is eternal the question is if it will be eternally alive in Christ or eternally dead in Christ. Some here are confusing eternal life with eternal existence.

Second, why would Jesus mention that both body and soul can be destroyed? Matt. 10:28

the main argument here is the meaning of the word destroyed. According to translation it does NOT have to mean annihilation, thus context is vital to properly dividing the word.

Most people thrown into hell will go pfzzt and burn up.

can you show that passage in scripture? Thanks

 

[razzelflabben]

No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.

no, but having no rest kind of does....just saying...

 

[razzelflabben]

LOL---I didn't ignore. It's just that what am I supposed to say when I already know that the word soul has many meanings and I have already understood all those verses you quoted. But if you wish to ignore my post--that's I ok. My questions haven't been answered anyways. I have yet to see one verse that says that we have an immortal soul. I didn't expect an answer to the part about Adam getting his soul at the time God berthed into him, it is the same word as the word for the other creatures. And I asked before. Since they all got the same breath of life from God, are all living things possessed of an immortal soul?

your right, you haven't been shown one verse that says we have an immortal soul, you have been shown many...whether you have seen them or not is up to you and your willingness to see. Here is the point...both sides should be able to admit that there are scriptures to defend both positions, to deny this is a falsehood. The question is not if the passages exist or not, they do and all of us who are honest about the topic will confess this, the question is what position reconciles all of the passages into one understanding, for therein is the intent of God in telling us about hell and the soul/spirit of man.

 

[razzelflabben]

Its not just retribution, God is eliminating evil completely once and forever. Take those seals in context. The first rider is the world conquerer, followed by world war, famine and plague. This is a bloody infamous rampage. They are avenged in the sixth plague and hid beneath the earth, caves and dens of the rocks. Apparently it's like Pharoh hardening his heart at first and God hardening Pharohs heart later. Like the Canaanites gettin hundreds of years for their iniquity to come to fruition. The armies of the antichrist never repent but many during that time will, its the whole point.

There can be no question that they deserve it but in the end perdition is about ending evil forever. Now we can say its a permanent condition of torment or annilation but to what end would they survive for all eternity? Again it's the paradox of a stone God makes that's too big for him to pick up. Surely if its in God's power to create from nothing it's within his capacity to reduce to nothing. Or is it?

I'm hung up on one verse describing the torment lasting forever. I am looking at annilation for a lot of the same reasons I hold to an ex nihleo (out of nothing) creation. In a word, omnipotence.

Grace and peace,
Mark

let me offer some food for thought about the omnipotence of God. where God is omnipotent, He also limits His power by His own free will. For example, He refuses to force anyone to turn to Him, it is our own choice. In His omnipotent power, He has limited Himself to our free will.

This is true of the rules of this current world as well, there will be a day when that is reconciled, but at the moment, God allows us to be far from Him because He has limited His power for our sake, because of Love.

Just something to think about.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[aiki]

On the contrary, I've shown plainly what a man is made of. I've asked you to present some teaching from Scripture that teaches us that a man can live on after death. You haven't. You've admitted that it's been inferred. If something is inferred it is because it is "NOT" stated. The argument you're making is a logical fallacy. It's called Begging the Question or Circular reasoning. That is improper reasoning.

Actually, making an inference is not circular reasoning. Homicide detectives make inferences all the time. It's how they go about solving murders. They take the evidence and facts surrounding a murder and infer - or deduce - from them how and why the murder occurred. The lack of an eyewitness or a "smoking gun" in support of their theory about who did the murdering and why does not necessarily mean that their conclusions are in error or that they are guilty of circular reasoning.

As for Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

This verse tells us what Man is; it is does not tell us what he is not. Ron Rhodes in his book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" writes,

"It is true that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. Genesis 2:7 is clearly an example of this. But because the word can be used in this sense does not mean that it is limited to this sense, or that man does not have an immaterial nature...Indeed, Genesis 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being), not what he is not. In other words, while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature." ("Reasoning from the Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes. pg. 308)

It turns out that you are the one who has been inferring! As Ron Rhodes explains, Genesis 2:7 does not explicitly state that man is only a "living being." That is something you are inferring - without good warrant - from the verse.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said that as Jonah was in the whale/fish...not that his whole body and soul were in it the whole time. Jonah is at the
end of that time and prays as chapter 1 enters chapter 2. In this prayer Jonah speaks to God not as hear my prayer - but you heard. Jonah is referring to when he had died and gone to
hell-God heard his prayer.

No. The body is just a shell. The core of who a person is the soul and spirit. Jesus was referring to the core of who Jonah was because He did not say He was referring to Jonah's body being in the whale's belly. Jesus simply referred to Jonah (Which would be the core of who he is). The body is not the core of a person. It is just a temple or shell by itself. For the spirit without the body is dead.

I mean, I get it. You desperately want Jonah 2 to support the existence of hell. I also wanted to do the same just a few days ago. But I had to be honest with myself in what the text was really saying. When I kept re-reading it over and over in prayer, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture (by finding out meaning of one's soul fainting within them elswhere in God's Word), and by understanding that Jonah prayed out of the fish in verse 1 and how he cried out of the BELLY of hell (i.e. the whale's belly) in verse 2, it just seemed more and more apparent that he did not die and go to hell.

Oh, and yes. I believe that people will be conscious after death and that there is a hell. I just do not think hell is a torture chamber of flames burning people. It is more like a really bad prison whereby the wicked are tormented (not tortured).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it is as a monument to warn the angels and believers that put on eternal life to never sin. It shows what happens to
those that disobey God.
You mentioned the lowest hell as being the lake of fire. I don't
see it as but where chained up wicked angels reside or such.
The lake of fire to me, seems to be located in the land of Edom. It will become burning pitch and brimstone, plus the
people there God will have indigation against forever.
Some people think it is odd for God to eternally punish someone by tormenting them, but I find it odd that He would
have anger against people that had burned as some say to
nothing - or ashes. The people at the end of Isaiah 66 do not
look upon ashes, but carcases where their worm dieth not.
Job told how worms destroy the flesh after one dies.
All flesh shall be at the time of the new earth -abhorred by
these carcases. Daniel 12 uses the word - contempt. It also means - abhorring. The wicked will rise to shame and everlasting contempt.

Corpses turn into ashes.
As for the Eternal Torture in Fire VIew: Well, while this belief is popular, it is indeed an odd belief because it goes against God's goodness or morality. For you cannot explain this type of belief in how it is moral and good.
As for your suggestion that the lake of fire is yet future and it will exist on the surface of the Earth: Well, if that is true, will God's people during the Millennium gather together to watch the beast and the false prophet burn?


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[razzelflabben]

Compare it to the words by Solomon in Ecclesiastes. Solomon
writes to the people as to things done under the sun, under
heaven, by your hand, works. He tells how man has ideas and then dies and his thoughts perish. Solomon also refers to how
every man will be judged according to those works he had done
while under the sun.

no new thing under the sun

Ecclesiastes 9:6
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now
perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in
any thing that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 1:11
"There is no remembrance of former things, neither shall
there be remembrance of things that are to come with those
that shall come after."

Ecclesiastes 2:16
"For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool forever..."
Ecclesiastes 2:18
"...I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me."

Psalms 146 tells not to put your trust in princes, nor the son of
man, as when he dies-his thoughts perish.
These are thoughts as to his wishes in this past life, not that
he cannot think after he is dead, as in via his soul lives on.

You do realize don't you, that the author of Ecclesiastes is looking at life on this earth and not life after this life, right? You know the perspective of the flesh not of the spirit? Just saying, these aren't the best passages to make your case because of perspective. this Psalms passage is also talking about flesh perspective...so again not a very good way to make your point.

 

[mark kennedy]

no, but having no rest kind of does....just saying...

I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.

And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.(Hebrews 3:18,19)​

Of course the second death cannot be confused with rest but oblivion isn't the same thing either.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post:
When does the scripture change which says "they have no rest day nor night?" If those being tormented are annihilated at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. After 1000s of years that verse will still read the same. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"​

Which is just semantics, the antecedent of forever here is the smoke not the person being consumed.

False semantical argument. The smoke is not just any old smoke but "the smoke of their torment" and it ascends for ever and ever. Ordinary smoke does not ascend forever it quickly dissipates. If those being tormented die eventually the torment no longer exists and the smoke is no longer theirs. That the torment lasts forever is emphasized by the words "they have no rest day and night."

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Apology I Chap. XLV
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.
Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise VII
14. Assuredly he may fear to die, who, not being regenerated of water and the Spirit, is delivered over to the fires of Gehenna; he may fear to die who is not enrolled in the cross and passion of Christ; he may fear to die, who from this death shall pass over to a second death; he may fear to die, whom on his departure from this world eternal flame shall tormented with neverending punishments; he may fear to die who has this advantage in a lengthened delay, that in the meanwhile his groanings and his anguish are being postponed.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.

And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.(Hebrews 3:18,19)​

Of course the second death cannot be confused with rest but oblivion isn't the same thing either.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hebrews says we must labor to enter into his rest. This rest is in abiding in Christ by allowing Jesus to do the good work in us. Then we can rest (have peace and love) that comes from knowing the Lord. The Saturday Sabbath is a picture of the Old Covenant's version for rest. But believers today are not to judge others according to Sabbath days. For some regard all days alike in the Lord.

As for entering into the Lord's rest in relation to the wicked being destroyed: Well, the type of rest here is speaking figuratively and not literally. Believers will not be literally sleeping the whole time in Abraham's bosom (Which is obvious because of Luke 16:19-31). The comparison is only made so as to illustrate how we will be comforted in abiding in Christ for all time. Entering into God's rest was not meant to be taken as wooden literalism. The wicked will be destroyed.


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[razzelflabben]

I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.

And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.(Hebrews 3:18,19)​

Of course the second death cannot be confused with rest but oblivion isn't the same thing either.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I think the point is that in the passage in question they will not have rest day or night...for those who claim that there will be partial consciousness or something like that (in enough pain at the moment I forget the term) this passage would seem to disagree. What is intended by rest we do not know apart from they have none. If we equate rest to the Sabbath, it would be to rest from their labor, or quest for gain, which doesn't seem to fit any of the passages we are talking about.

Interesting...thanks

 

[mark kennedy]

The 5th seal is about God's people desiring justice. The answer is the 6th seal (as you said). Yet, while God purifies this Earth of evil by fire after Christ's return (2 Peter 3:10), that does not mean sin will not exist in the Millennium or that the remaining nations will not be tempted by the devil at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ upon this Earth (Revelation 20:1-9).

The martyrs beneath the alter are the victims of the Antichrist's initial rampage.

All evil will be eradicated sometime before the start of the new heavens and new earth as mentioned in Revelation. The actual Day of the Lord is the actual return, it happens at the end of the Tribulation:

He is clothed in a robe dipped blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule" them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (Rev. 19:13-16)
​

That sword, the word used for sword there isn't the standard issue double edge sword all Roman soldiers had. It was double edge but like four feet long, it was used with great effect against advancing infantry. The enemies of Rome were terrified of it. It was called the rhomphaia (G4501 ῥομφαία)

Please take note the Bible mentions two different kinds of new heavens and new earths. They are not the same.

New Heavens & New Earth #1
(i.e. the Millennium)
The 1st "New Heavens and New Earth" mentioned in the Old Testament (Isaiah 65:17) and by Peter (2 Peter 3:13) is in reference to the Millennium. The Millennium takes place after Christ returns down from out of the clouds whereby He will destroy the remaining nations that will come up against Him. The Millennium also takes place after the Lord purifies this Earh by fire (which is similar to the global flood but it will leave no trace of this world behind; For not even a McDonald's sign will be accidentally found buried in the Earth. For the Earth's upper crust will be burned or turned into liquid hot magma).

New Heavens & New Earth #2
(Final New Heavens & New Earth)
The second "New Heavens & New Earth" as mentioned in Revelation 21:1 comes at the end of the Millennium and after the Judgment and eradication of evil. Satan, his minions, and wicked sinners will be no more. So when all evil comes to end forever, the final "New Heavens & New Earth" will arrive for God's people. This will be an entirely different and new planet whereby this planet will be no more.​

​

I'm pretty much convinced that the new heavens and the new earth isn't the entire universe. It looks like the six day creation done a second time, this time it's permanent and perfect.

Also, back at the 7 year tribulation on this Earth (which is still yet a future event for us after the Pre-Trib Rapture): Well, these saints that were slain or killed for the Word of God and Jesus at the fifth seal are not in caves. They are dead souls crying out for vengeance over how they were murdered (Revelation 6:9-10). Yet, living saints are encouraged to forgive others and to pray and do good towards their enemies.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. (Rom. 12:19)
​

First century Christians did not take revenge, in fact, they believed that their persecutors we victims of a delusion. Those who slaughter this group are not given that consideration, they are children of perdition slaughtering out of a lust for bloody violence. God's response is interesting:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:10-11)​

Fellow servants? I have always wonder who are the tribulation saints, it seems to me, they are those who reject the Antichrist and turn to God. They have their testimony, they witness to God's sovereign power just as the prophets and apostles did before them.

Anyways, here is a brief chronology of upcoming events:

#1. Pre-Trib Rapture
#2. 7 Year Tribulation

(a) The Day of Lord begins at 6th seal.
(b) Christ's return (Armageddon)
(3rd part of the 6th vial)​

#3. Earth purified by fire (Conclusion of the Day the Lord)
#4. The Millennium
#5. The Judgment seat of Christ
#6. The Great White Throne Judgment
#7. Eradication of devil, demons, & wicked man
#8. The Final New Heavens & New Earth​

​

The way I organize the Revelation is seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of wrath. This approach divides them into three groups of seven chapters.

Seals

1) The Revelation of the Son of Man
2) 7 Letters to the 7 Churches
3) 7 Letters continued
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah)
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb​

Trumpets

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates
10) The Angel and the Little Book
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and the Beast of the Sea
14) 3 Angels proclaim: 144,000, Gospel, Wrath on 666​

Vials of Wrath

15) 7 Angels given the 7 Vials of Wrath
16) Vials of Wrath: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads
18) The wine of the wrath of her fall
19) The wedding feast of the Lamb
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years
21) The New Jerusalem​

Eternal State

22) The Healing of the Nations​

The chronology is pretty easy to discern. The tribulation starts with the opening of the first seal so we know when that happens. The drama of the Two Witnesses unfolds about the middle, we know that because it says they witness for 3 1/2 years and the seventh trumpet sounds at the end of their witness. The vials come right at the end, they survive the vials and are gathering for the final battle they think they are going to win, it's over in an instant. Scene of the Beast rising out of a sea of humanity with Babylon sitting on it's back drinking the blood of the saints is between the last trumpet and the first vial, a space of 2 to 3 years. They spend that time having these big assemblies and hunting down anyone who will not take the mark.

As for the verse you are having trouble with: which verse may I ask is it? Maybe I can help.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)​

I have differed to the simplicity of the language, John's writings are the simplest in the New Testament. However the antecedent of day and night, forever and ever is clearly tormented.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[razzelflabben]

Previous post:
When does the scripture change which says "they have no rest day nor night?" If those being tormented are annihilated at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. After 1000s of years that verse will still read the same. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"​

that is exactly the point...the smoke is said to go on for ever and ever and if we want to make the case for eternal fire, here it is, not eternal torment. However, the very same verse says that they will not rest day or night....that alone leaves out unconsciousness, partial or otherwise. IT also suggests eternity but that isn't specified in this passage just suggested. To come to the conclusion of eternal torment not just eternal fire we need to add some passages. ​

False semantical argument. The smoke is not just any old smoke but "the smoke of their torment" and it ascends for ever and ever. Ordinary smoke does not ascend forever it quickly dissipates. If those being tormented die eventually the torment no longer exists and the smoke is no longer theirs. That the torment lasts forever is emphasized by the words "they have no rest day and night."

I agree, but if we take a balanced approach, what we know from this is that the fire is not what we think of as fire being that the smoke continues for ever and ever. I'm trying to look at it objectively, that is without a biased understanding based on a careful study of the whole of scripture. IOW's I'm trying to see with a different perspective and I still come to the same conclusion no matter how much I try to see this as otherwise. where I can give points to the passage talking about the smoke going on forever I cannot ignore that there is no rest day and night. Likewise I cannot ignore that the smoke is different than our version of a fire.

IOW's no matter how we slice this passage we cannot get a temporary suffering in hell all the while setting the stage for doing away with the idea of a fire that turns men to ash.