The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[jeager016]

Personally, I would go with those that actually follow what God says in scripture about not being deceived...that being relying on the HS to protect us from deception, this includes but is not limited to living out righteousness and the fruit of the spirit in Gal. 5 and studying to show thyself approved. When I study, I place at least 7 layers of checks and balances so that I am not led astray....1. I seek the HS to teach me 2. the passage in context 3. I study the translational meaning of the words used 4. the culture and teachings of the day 5. the totality of scripture 6. challenge of the conclusions I found. 7. putting it into practice and seeing if it is true to what scripture seems to be saying.

I think there are other ways of study, but too many people just proof text and don't actually put effort into knowing the intent of God. What I have repeatedly found is that many of the people who live and practice the extremes will say to me, "of course that is what it says but...." or "of course that works with all of scripture but..." or something like that.

I'd venture to speculated that ALL members of ALL those denominations believe
their denominations is true and accurate.
So it begs the question...............which one if the true "faith and belief"?
Frankly I know that I know not.

Is it the Westboro Baptists that preach "God hates homosexuals" the snake
handling fundamentalists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics....................?????

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

There is a problem in most of your estimation, determination and appraisal about Hell, you have not seen Hell nor have you been there.

Therefore it is necessary to rely on the testimonies of those people who have been granted visions of Hell to explain Hell better for us.

In regards to Hell, my opinion is that if your soul is sent there after death, you will find out the truth of the matter for yourself whether it is eternal or not.

But just to be fair, I present to you one of the testimonies of the Saints, the Testimony of Saint Faustina Kowalska of God from Poland of the Roman Catholic Faith.

If the Roman Catholic Faith offends you, please don't read any further.

Saint Faustina Kowalska was born on the 25th of August 1905 in Glogowiec, Poland. She entered into the Congregation of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy. Under orders from her spiritual Director she wrote her personal Diary, which she titled The Divine Mercy in My Soul. She died at thirty-three years old on the 5th of October 1938.

She had a vision of the Inferno, as she herself recounted, “Today under the guidance of an Angel, I was in the depths of Hell. It is a place of great torments all throughout its terrifyingly wide extension.

These are the various punishments that I saw:

The First penalty, that one which constitutes Hell, is the loss of God;

The Second, the continual remorse of con-science;

The Third, the knowledge that fate will never change;

The Fourth punishment is the fire which penetrates the soul, but does not annihilate it; it is a terrible pain: it is a purely spiritual fire ignited by the anger of God;

The Fifth punishment is the continual obscurity, a horrible suffocating stench, and although it is dark, the demons and the damned spirits are seen amongst themselves and they see all the evil of the others and their own;

The Sixth pain is the continual company of Satan;

The Seventh pain is tremendous despera-tion, the loathing of God, the curses, the hexes, the profanities.

“These are punishments that all the damned suffer together, but this is not the end of the torments. There are particular torments for the various souls that are torments of the senses. Every soul, with that which he sinned, is tormented in a tremendous and indescribable manner.

“There are horrible caverns, pits of torments, where every torture is differen-tiated from the other. I would have died at the sight of those horrible tortures, if I had not been sustained by the omnipotence of God. The sinner knows with the sense with which fault he will be tortured for all of eternity.

And she added, ‘I write this on orders by God, so that no soul justifies itself saying that there is no Hell, or that no one knows how it is.

I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, was in the depths of Hell, for the purpose of telling souls and to testify that Hell exists. That which I wrote is a weak shadow of the things that I saw.

One thing I noted and that is, that HELL, most of the souls which are there, are souls who did not believe that there was an Inferno.’ ”

And Saint Faustina added, “In as much as is revealed and written about Hell is only a pale shadow of the reality.”

God bless you.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'd venture to speculated that ALL members of ALL those denominations believe
their denominations is true and accurate.
So it begs the question...............which one if the true "faith and belief"?
Frankly I know that I know not.

Is it the Westboro Baptists that preach "God hates homosexuals" the snake
handling fundamentalists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics....................?????

of course they all think they are right, but do they all pass the "rightness" test in scripture? You know, where we are taught to test all things...to see if they are from God or not...as I said, there are things we can do to assure we are right, just as scripture tells us to do. The question is not who is right or wrong but if we ourselves are willing to admit when we are wrong according to testing as God commands us to do.

If our hearts are so hard that we cannot hear scripture when it is presented and see it in context of the passage and the totality of scripture, if we refuse to listen when scripture tells us something because if doesn't make sense to our fleshly minds or our biased opinions. When we discard passages that don't fit our agenda's, we can be pretty sure we are wrong about God and His intent.

Look at Westboro Baptist for example, where does God say that He hates homosexuals? It doesn't but the Westboro Baptist will argue inference or something else equally unsatisfactory. What about snake handlers? Where scripture says that we can trample on snakes and scorpions and nothing shall harm us it also says not to tempt God. Not to mention the context of the passage the focus is not the power over snakes and scorpions in fact the point is power over demons and the emphasis is that we are saved. IOW's the 72 were sent out to share the gospel. In order to do their job they were given power over snakes and scorpions and demons. But their joy was not to be in this power but in the salvation that they had received. Does that sound consistent with how the snake handlers "worship"?

We can go on and on...it isnt' about having an agenda when we go to scripture. It isn't about proof texting, not about justifying, but rather it is about saying, Lord I want to know all of you I can contain whether I like it or not, show me who you are...what you have for me to know...and there we sit, seeking God and HIs Kingdom and allowing Him to give us that knowledge and truth because we obeyed Him when He says, this is how you know truth.

 

[jeager016]

About hell.
It's REAL.
I've been there!
Took me years of psychotherapy to get out of there!
22.5 years as a police officer in a mixed race city that ranked in the top 10
for violent crime in Ohio.
Ever hold an infant rescued from a house fire that had it's skin falling off?
interview and 8 year old girl raped for the third time?
Hold an old woman run down by a drunk drive while she died?
Watch a man behead himself with a shotgun?
And more............................
Alcoholism, p.t.s.d., depression, ..............................
13 serious, crippling, injuries........................

I finally learned the Power of God that can heal even those wounds.
Alcoholics Anonymous works IF you surrender to a Power greater than man.
"Thank you God for freedom from addiction and the horrors of the past."
I'm still crippled a bit but after nine months in physical rehab I can walk well
again.
I got the strength to attend college after I was disabled and earned two degrees
and retired again from G.M.

The Catholic faith does NOT offend me at all.
Westboro Baptists should offend every Christian.
Rattlesnake playing fundamentalists don't offend me either.
I just will never attend their services.
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[razzelflabben]

About hell.
It's REAL.
I've been there!
Took me years of psychotherapy to get out of there!
22.5 years as a police officer in a mixed race city that ranked in the top 10
for violent crime in Ohio.
Ever hold an infant rescued from a house fire that had it's skin falling off?
interview and 8 year old girl raped for the third time?
Hold an old woman run down by a drunk drive while she died?
Watch a man behead himself with a shotgun?
And more............................
Alcoholism, p.t.s.d., depression, ..............................
13 serious, crippling, injuries........................

I finally learned the Power of God that can heal even those wounds.
Alcoholics Anonymous works IF you surrender to a Power greater than man.
"Thank you God for freedom from addiction and the horrors of the past."
I'm still crippled a bit but after nine months in physical rehab I can walk well
again.
I got the strength to attend college after I was disabled and earned two degrees
and retired again from G.M.

amen...way too many people fail to understand that the power of Christ over sin and death involves not just the sins we commit but the sins committed against us or that we witness. God's power heals those wounds and testifies to the truth of scripture that Christ came to I John 3:8; Heb. 9:26

amen

 

[mmksparbud]

Wow, so now you finally agree with me and others here that there is eternal life and eternal death...shoooooo that is a relief....so now, the question is what is eternal death.

Got a question for you...if eternal life is life with Christ, what is eternal death? Wouldn't it be the opposite of life with Christ? You know the spiritual life and death...if life in the flesh is consciousness, death is the opposite, right? In the Spirit, if life is with Christ, what would be the opposite? Death-separation, right?

What??? I've never said there was no permanent, eternal death!! I know exactly what death means and need no made up meaning for my understanding of it. Cease to exist eternally!! That is what it means and always has. It is death, eternal death, not eternal dying!! Death is not life. It is not conscious, not aware, nothing. Period. It is separation from life, not just Christ--without Christ there can be no life of any kind!

 

[razzelflabben]

What??? I've never said there was no permanent, eternal death!! I know exactly what death means and need no made up meaning for my understanding of it. Cease to exist eternally!! That is what it means and always has. It is death, eternal death, not eternal dying!! Death is not life. It is not conscious, not aware, nothing. Period. It is separation from life, not just Christ--without Christ there can be no life of any kind!

scripture disagrees, but that is a different matter....btw, nice of you to not disappoint. You are still refusing to answer the questions asked of you and your opinion again.

 

[mmksparbud]

we have talked about this and you still refuse to understand. It matters because it goes to the character of God as per the eternal torment described in the bible. You see, if hell is the consequence of sin, then God's character is NOT questioned by eternal torment. If on the other hand it is God torturing or punishing others then His character is brought into question. As to the word punishment, we talked about it and you refuse to accept what it says so let's parse it yet a different way. Like torment and torture, all torture is torment but not all torment is torture. Likewise, all torment is punishing, but not all punishment is torment. IOW's we have to look at more than just the word the translators decided to us and look at word meaning and context. when I showed this in scripture, no one, not a single person challenged the conclusion that hell is a consequence of sin not a punishment handed out by God for sins committed.

And I've repeatedly said it matters not one tiny bit what you call it. Punishment, Consequences, torture, torment. What ever it is---the act itself of pain and suffering in hell is just, it is warranted, it is what must happen ---but it does not go on forerver!! According to their works and then they cease to exist.

 

[razzelflabben]

And I've repeatedly said it matters not one tiny bit what you call it. Punishment, Consequences, torture, torment. What ever it is---the act itself of pain and suffering in hell is just, it is warranted, it is what must happen ---but it does not go on forerver!! According to their works and then they cease to exist.

I see you still refuse to answer the questions that will show you wrong....I think that is about enough between you and I, you refuse to answer questions then go off on me because you don't want to answer.

 

[mmksparbud]

Pure joy...how odd that scripture would admonish us to consider it pure joy to suffer. why?

If suffering has a purpose and is part of a fallen world, why then would we assume the fallen would not know suffering?

So, why then would those that love wickedness avoid the suffering that came as a result of their sins? their love for the wickedness?

Are these the questions you are referring to??

Pure joy to suffer--on this earth for the propose of witnessing for God or for the purpose of being "refined"--to grow in understanding of the love of God and of our duty to God. I have no problem with that nor with God having pleasure in knowing that what His Son is going through is for the salvation of mankind---but that the suffering He was going through was a joy to Him is what I object to. Results, yes. My step daughter had to have a root canal around 13----the anesthetic did not work very well. It was torture for her and torture for me to see her in pain even though I knew it had to be done and the end result would be for the best.

There is no question that the fallen will suffer in hell---they should -- it is just--Who said the wicked will avoid suffering? I never did. They will suffer-again, that is only justice. And it says they will "according to their words"---God will determine the suffering they should endure for their sins--I have no doubt that a pedophile is going to suffer a lot more than a fornicating adult. I have no doubt that a person that kills will have to suffer for that, a serial killer should suffer more than someone who has killed 1 person, and someone like Hitler, responsible for millions of deaths, is going to suffer beyond what we can imagine and rightfully so.
The only thing that is not justice, is not in God's character is that it go one forever. At some point, justice will have been served, there is no further purpose for it, no one is going to come out of it and lead a better life with Christ--it is what they have to go through to pay for their sins, and then they and their sins will be no more and the saved can go on with life in a perfect sinless world where there is no pain, no tears, no suffering, no punishment, no torment, no death---and no need to watch any of that.

 

[razzelflabben]

Are these the questions you are referring to??

Pure joy to suffer--on this earth for the propose of witnessing for God or for the purpose of being "refined"--to grow in understanding of the love of God and of our duty to God. I have no problem with that nor with God having pleasure in knowing that what His Son is going through is for the salvation of mankind---but that the suffering He was going through was a joy to Him is what I object to. Results, yes. My step daughter had to have a root canal around 13----the anesthetic did not work very well. It was torture for her and torture for me to see her in pain even though I knew it had to be done and the end result would be for the best.

There is no question that the fallen will suffer in hell---they should -- it is just--Who said the wicked will avoid suffering? I never did. They will suffer-again, that is only justice. And it says they will "according to their words"---God will determine the suffering they should endure for their sins--I have no doubt that a pedophile is going to suffer a lot more than a fornicating adult. I have no doubt that a person that kills will have to suffer for that, a serial killer should suffer more than someone who has killed 1 person, and someone like Hitler, responsible for millions of deaths, is going to suffer beyond what we can imagine and rightfully so.
The only thing that is not justice, is not in God's character is that it go one forever. At some point, justice will have been served, there is no further purpose for it, no one is going to come out of it and lead a better life with Christ--it is what they have to go through to pay for their sins, and then they and their sins will be no more and the saved can go on with life in a perfect sinless world where there is no pain, no tears, no suffering, no punishment, no torment, no death---and no need to watch any of that.

not even a start in the right direction....but thanks for playing the avoidance game

 

[razzelflabben]

Are these the questions you are referring to??

Pure joy to suffer--on this earth for the propose of witnessing for God or for the purpose of being "refined"--to grow in understanding of the love of God and of our duty to God. I have no problem with that nor with God having pleasure in knowing that what His Son is going through is for the salvation of mankind---but that the suffering He was going through was a joy to Him is what I object to. Results, yes. My step daughter had to have a root canal around 13----the anesthetic did not work very well. It was torture for her and torture for me to see her in pain even though I knew it had to be done and the end result would be for the best.

There is no question that the fallen will suffer in hell---they should -- it is just--Who said the wicked will avoid suffering? I never did. They will suffer-again, that is only justice. And it says they will "according to their words"---God will determine the suffering they should endure for their sins--I have no doubt that a pedophile is going to suffer a lot more than a fornicating adult. I have no doubt that a person that kills will have to suffer for that, a serial killer should suffer more than someone who has killed 1 person, and someone like Hitler, responsible for millions of deaths, is going to suffer beyond what we can imagine and rightfully so.
The only thing that is not justice, is not in God's character is that it go one forever. At some point, justice will have been served, there is no further purpose for it, no one is going to come out of it and lead a better life with Christ--it is what they have to go through to pay for their sins, and then they and their sins will be no more and the saved can go on with life in a perfect sinless world where there is no pain, no tears, no suffering, no punishment, no torment, no death---and no need to watch any of that.

so, who determines what sin is greater than another? If you want to avoid the questions that deal with the topic at hand maybe you can answer that one.

 

[Der Alte]

'
And the words "everlasting and eternal", and "unquenchable" do not always mean forever and can not be out as has been shown.
.

Please clarify, "can not be out as shown?" While the Greek word αἰώνἰος/aionios, often translated "eternal" and αἰών/aion, often translated "forever" might sometimes be used for things which are not eternal or forever and the phrase οὐ σβέννυται/ou sbennutai, often translated "not quenched" might be used in a different way, those uses alone do not determine the meaning.
.....For example the native Greek speaking ECF clearly showed that the punishment was unending and the fire not quenched.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Apology I Chap. XLV
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.
Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise VII
14. Assuredly he may fear to die, who, not being regenerated of water and the Spirit, is delivered over to the fires of Gehenna; he may fear to die who is not enrolled in the cross and passion of Christ; he may fear to die, who from this death shall pass over to a second death; he may fear to die, whom on his departure from this world eternal flame shall tormented with neverending punishments; he may fear to die who has this advantage in a lengthened delay, that in the meanwhile his groanings and his anguish are being postponed.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Extant Works and Fragments Part II.
3. ….to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So there were Christians who falsely believed in Eternal Concious Torment in the past. It doesn't mean their belief is correct.


...

 

[rjs330]

So there were Christians who falsely believed in Eternal Concious Torment in the past. It doesn't mean their belief is correct.


...

Yes they were.

 

[mmksparbud]

so, who determines what sin is greater than another? If you want to avoid the questions that deal with the topic at hand maybe you can answer that one.

I guess I missed what you want--restate the questions please. Since you indicate multiple, can you deal with no more than 2 at a time please.

I am not God, I do not make the decisions of how long, what intensity, what constitutes "greater" or lesser evil in His sight, for if you break 1 commandment, you break them all. The decision is His and whatever it is it will be just. All it says is according to their works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes they were.

And there were also early Christians who appeared to believe in "Conditional Immortality", too.

The Doctrine of Immortality in the Eartly Church.


...

 

[Der Alte]

I could be standing in front of my car and I could say, "I am happy in this car." and still be grammatically correct in saying that.
I could be standing in front of a burning building that was on fire and I could say, "I am tormented in this flame." because of the intense heat of it.

Anybody can make up ad hoc "examples" which will prove almost anything. But the correct way to interpret texts in Greek or Hebrew is to compare them to other texts in the same language. So if you can, show me some NT scripture that uses the Greek word "en" in the way you suggest?

Your pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 is flawed because you cannot explain how torturing the wicked in extreme amounts of pain within fire for thousands of years in hell is loving and good. In other words, it ignores God's goodness or morality. My pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 comes from understanding that God is loving and good even in His judgments. My pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 is consistent with the rest of Scripture whereby I do not see God torturing others for long extended periods of time sadistically. My pre-supposition comes from the fact that God's goodness and judgments can be explained and understood. For even Scripture states that we can understand God's judgments. But whenever I ask an ECT proponent to explain the goodness of God in light of their belief, they freeze up like a deer caught up in the headlights of an oncoming car.

A long ramble filled with, as you you have acknowledged, your own assumptions/presuppositions. There is no deer in the headlights look, that is just how those who consider themselves to be superior, I might say holier than thou, try to demean others who don't agree with them.
.....One who is really interested in the answer to the question you posed could do just as they have done to support their assumptions/ presuppositions, research it. Instead of coming to forums like this and belittling those who disagree with them. That is what I did, I googled. Here is an excerpt from one of many discussions online. I could spend several hours reinventing the wheel but why? The work has already been done.

First we minimize our sin. We all do it. It’s part of our fallen nature. Do you remember what happened to Lot’s wife? God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. Do you remember her crime? Nothing more than a backward glance (Gen. 19:26). Reading that story might provoke many to ask the question, “Was that really an offense worthy of death?”
This was not an isolated event. As you explore the Bible, other accounts of God’s judgment appear equally severe. Nadab and Abihu deviated from the priestly procedures, so God consumed them with fire (Lev. 10:1-2); one man gathered wood on the Sabbath, so God commanded Moses to stone him (Num. 15:35); Achan took a few forbidden items from the spoils of Jericho, so God commanded Joshua to stone him along with his entire family (Josh. 7:24-25); Uzzah kept the ark of God from falling into the mud by reaching out his hand and taking hold of it, so God immediately struck him dead (2 Sam. 6:6-7); Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostles, so God killed them both in front of the entire church (Acts 5:1-10). We have a tendency to think that God was overreacting in these situations. However, this only serves to illustrate our fallen state. We do not see our sin the way God sees our sin.
.....One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime. So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is eternity in Hell, then what is the crime? What do men do to merit the eternal sentence of Hell? The answer is sin.
Many inside and outside the church treat sin as no big deal. However, the Bible describes our sin as “rebellion,” “ungodliness,” “lawlessness,” “wickedness,” and an “abomination” (Lev. 26:27; Is. 32:6; 1 Jn. 3:4; Ezek. 18:27; Pr. 15:9). Therefore, sinners are traitors, refusing to love, thank, serve, and obey the God who gave them life, breath, and every good thing.
.....I find it ironic that those who protest the idea of eternal, conscious punishment deride the doctrine with words like, “cruel,” “morally revolting,” “monstrous,” and “repugnant.” Why don’t they employ the same terms of outrage to describe their sin? The answer is clear. They are not outraged by sin because they fail to see sin as God sees sin. If we cannot see our sin as God sees it, then it stands to reason that we will not see the just judgment of Hell like He sees it either.
.....Second, we distort God’s holiness. Not only do we refuse to come to grips with the enormity of human sin, but we also misunderstand the holiness of the God being sinned against. It hardly seems fair for God to inflict infinite suffering for a finite number of sins committed and accumulated over a few short years. That is, of course, until one considers the infinite Being that is sinned against.
.....The idea of viewing the severity of punishment in terms of the person offended against is common sense. Imagine the consequences of punching a friend in the face. The friend might punch them back, or stop being their friend, or even report them to the police. If they were to punch their teacher, they would be suspended, or even expelled from the school. If they strike a policeman, the punishment escalates even further. They will probably end up in a jail cell. Finally, if they attempt to punch the President of the United States, they are going to prison for a long time. Notice the crime was the same in each case; however, the punishment escalated based on the one the crime was committed against.
.....Clearly, we live by an established principle: the seriousness of a crime is measured not only by its inherent nature, but also by the one offended against. When we sin, who is the One being offended against? He is the Highest Authority, the blazingly holy God.
.....In our human courts, we judge crimes against animals as more heinous than crimes against plants. We judge crimes against humans as more heinous than crimes against animals. How much more should we judge the crimes against a Being of infinite goodness and holiness? Crimes against an infinite Being deserve an infinite punishment. Therefore, eternity in Hell is a punishment that both accounts for the inherent nature of the crime and the One whom the crime is committed against.
http://www.str.org/articles/is-eternal-punishment-just#.V9xcMDXgxFc​

Yes. I do consider the story of "Lazarus and the Rich-man" to be a literal and real account of the after-life. But like I said, this literal narrative does not support one being tortured in flames, though. I am a "Dualistic Conditionalist" under the umbrella of "Conditional Immortality." (And I differ slightly in my belief than other Dualistic Conditionalists, too). Anyways, most "Conditional Immortality Proponents" believe in soul sleep or annihiationism after death. But I don't believe that. I believe Abraham's bosom and hades (hell or the place of torment) are real places (but I do not believe hell is described as a torture chamber in flames).

Although Jesus quotes the rich man as saying "I am tormented in this flame." Your view seems to be some of this story is literal and some is figurative.

It is actually quite amusing when the Modern Translations try to add the word "jackal" to my Bible when that is not even close to the original word used. For example: The KJV uses the words "dragon's well" in Nehemiah 2:13. Yet, certain Modern Translations say, "jackal's well." It makes sense that dragons (of the past) would live in caves and or underground sub chambers where water wells would go into. But a jackal's well? Jackals are like dogs. Jackals do not live in caves or underground wells. That is absolutely silly. God's Word (the KJV) gets this translation right (like it always does).

I guess you didn't notice I did not quote modern translations, I quoted two translations by Jewish scholars, the LXX translated almost 2000 years before the KJV and the Jewish Translation Society. If you think the Jewish translations are wrong and the KJV is the "perfect" translation you need to prove it rather than just beg the question.

Yes. Just re-read Matthew 10:28 again. It compares the destruction of the physical body with the destruction of BOTH the body and SOUL.

It goes without saying the God can destroy anything He created but I am still waiting for that verse which states that any souls have been or will be destroyed.

Again. This passage is not talking about the after-math. It is talking about the verb or the action of "destruction" taking place (which is away from the presence of the Lord).

How many credit hours do you have in Greek? Note how you have to add words to the verse to make it say what you want it to.
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT, who taught graduate level Greek for 47 years.

Eternal destruction (olethron aiōnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikēn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in 4 Maccabees 10:15 ton aiōnion tou turannou olethron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes). Destruction (cf. 1Th_5:3) does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation from the face of the Lord (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) and from the glory of his might (kai apo tēs doxēs tēs ischuos autou), an eternity of woe such as befell Antiochus Epiphanes. Aiōnios in itself only means age-long and papyri and inscriptions give it in the weakened sense of a Caesar’s life (Milligan), but Paul means by age-long the coming age in contrast with this age, as eternal as the New Testament knows how to make it. See note on Mat_25:46 for use of aiōnios​

Jamieson Faussett and Brown commentay.

destruction from the presence of the Lord — driven far from His presence [Alford]. The sentence emanating from Him in person, sitting as Judge [Bengel], and driving them far from Him (Mat_25:41; Rev_6:16; Rev_12:14; compare 1Pe_3:12; Isa_2:10, Isa_2:19). “The presence of the Lord” is the source whence the sentence goes forth; “the glory of His power” is the instrument whereby the sentence is carried into execution [Edmunds]. But Alford better interprets the latter clause (see 2Th_1:10), driven “from the manifestation of His power in the glorification of His saints.” Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death, the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isa_66:24; Mar_9:44).​

But the Bible has homonyms within it. The word meaning for destruction also can be used in reference to actual destruction, too.
But I prefer looking at the English words because I did not grow up writing or speaking Greek in Biblical times. Nobody has. Nobody is truly familar with this language unlike the people from that time. Folks are only making educated guesses as to what the Hebrew and Greek are saying based on previous scholars educated guesses.

Illustrating your total lack of knowledge and understanding how languages are interpreted. God did not write the KJV and send it down from the mountain with Moses By your standard it is a translation by "folks not truly familiar with this language unlike the people from that time. Folks are only making educated guesses as to what the Hebrew and Greek are saying based on previous scholars educated guesses."
.....Have you ever heard of the Rosetta stone? Also there is an entire nation, Greece, which has never passed out of existence, who did not forget the history of their country and their language.

Scripture is Scripture regardless of who quotes it.
Yes, I did later look over that list, and I do not agree with some of them so as to defend "Conditional Immortality."
But there are some in that list that do defend "Conditional Immortality", though. That's the point. For you to look thru the Scriptures and check it out for yourself. If you can't be bothered then it serves no purpose to have this kind of debate.

You did not quote scripture you listed a bunch of scripture references e.g. Jn 3:16, Rom 7:23, 1 Tim 3:16 etc. If you wish to show what scripture teaches, quote the scripture, in context, I don't have the time or the inclination to look up every scripture reference someone posts on this forum.

Again, this is an avoidance of what I believe is a flaw in your belief. You cannot explain God's goodness or the morality behind ECT.
God gave us hearts and minds to discern good and evil and what is right and wrong.
He wouldn't want us to shut off our moral compasses over a false misunderstanding on the Bible.

See above and try googling "Eternal punishment and God's goodness and mercy"

Where does it say the wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on in the "Lake of Fire" for all eternity?
As for outer darkness: Well, that's a completely different animal (or I should say "place").

So you are positing there are two or three places where the wicked are sent when they die?

Outer darkness is where the uprofitable servant (sinful Christian) goes temporally until they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
Outer darkness is most likely in the realm of the dead (Sheol) but it is not the same place where the rich-man went.

Do you have scripture to back up the suppositions here?

Again, the ACT of destruction that has everlasting consequences takes place away from the presence of the Lord.

See what the Greek scholars wrote above. You are simply twisting the English translation to make it fit your assumptions/presuppositions.

We realize that everlasting is speaking of consequences because this is common to see elsewhere in Scripture.
Take for example: Hebrews 6:2. It says there is "Eternal Judgment." Does this mean God will be continually judging people for all eternity? Surely not....

The meaning of Greek words is not determined by isolated examples.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anybody can make up ad hoc "examples" which will prove almost anything. But the correct way to interpret texts in Greek or Hebrew is to compare them to other texts in the same language. So if you can, show me some NT scripture that uses the Greek word "en" in the way you suggest?

A long ramble filled with, as you you have acknowledged, your own assumptions/presuppositions. There is no deer in the headlights look, that is just how those who consider themselves to be superior, I might say holier than thou, try to demean others who don't agree with them.
.....One who is really interested in the answer to the question you posed could do just as they have done to support their assumptions/ presuppositions, research it. Instead of coming to forums like this and belittling those who disagree with them. That is what I did, I googled. Here is an excerpt from one of many discussions online. I could spend several hours reinventing the wheel but why? The work has already been done.

First we minimize our sin. We all do it. It’s part of our fallen nature. Do you remember what happened to Lot’s wife? God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. Do you remember her crime? Nothing more than a backward glance (Gen. 19:26). Reading that story might provoke many to ask the question, “Was that really an offense worthy of death?”
This was not an isolated event. As you explore the Bible, other accounts of God’s judgment appear equally severe. Nadab and Abihu deviated from the priestly procedures, so God consumed them with fire (Lev. 10:1-2); one man gathered wood on the Sabbath, so God commanded Moses to stone him (Num. 15:35); Achan took a few forbidden items from the spoils of Jericho, so God commanded Joshua to stone him along with his entire family (Josh. 7:24-25); Uzzah kept the ark of God from falling into the mud by reaching out his hand and taking hold of it, so God immediately struck him dead (2 Sam. 6:6-7); Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostles, so God killed them both in front of the entire church (Acts 5:1-10). We have a tendency to think that God was overreacting in these situations. However, this only serves to illustrate our fallen state. We do not see our sin the way God sees our sin.
.....One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime. So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is eternity in Hell, then what is the crime? What do men do to merit the eternal sentence of Hell? The answer is sin.
Many inside and outside the church treat sin as no big deal. However, the Bible describes our sin as “rebellion,” “ungodliness,” “lawlessness,” “wickedness,” and an “abomination” (Lev. 26:27; Is. 32:6; 1 Jn. 3:4; Ezek. 18:27; Pr. 15:9). Therefore, sinners are traitors, refusing to love, thank, serve, and obey the God who gave them life, breath, and every good thing.
.....I find it ironic that those who protest the idea of eternal, conscious punishment deride the doctrine with words like, “cruel,” “morally revolting,” “monstrous,” and “repugnant.” Why don’t they employ the same terms of outrage to describe their sin? The answer is clear. They are not outraged by sin because they fail to see sin as God sees sin. If we cannot see our sin as God sees it, then it stands to reason that we will not see the just judgment of Hell like He sees it either.
.....Second, we distort God’s holiness. Not only do we refuse to come to grips with the enormity of human sin, but we also misunderstand the holiness of the God being sinned against. It hardly seems fair for God to inflict infinite suffering for a finite number of sins committed and accumulated over a few short years. That is, of course, until one considers the infinite Being that is sinned against.
.....The idea of viewing the severity of punishment in terms of the person offended against is common sense. Imagine the consequences of punching a friend in the face. The friend might punch them back, or stop being their friend, or even report them to the police. If they were to punch their teacher, they would be suspended, or even expelled from the school. If they strike a policeman, the punishment escalates even further. They will probably end up in a jail cell. Finally, if they attempt to punch the President of the United States, they are going to prison for a long time. Notice the crime was the same in each case; however, the punishment escalated based on the one the crime was committed against.
.....Clearly, we live by an established principle: the seriousness of a crime is measured not only by its inherent nature, but also by the one offended against. When we sin, who is the One being offended against? He is the Highest Authority, the blazingly holy God.
.....In our human courts, we judge crimes against animals as more heinous than crimes against plants. We judge crimes against humans as more heinous than crimes against animals. How much more should we judge the crimes against a Being of infinite goodness and holiness? Crimes against an infinite Being deserve an infinite punishment. Therefore, eternity in Hell is a punishment that both accounts for the inherent nature of the crime and the One whom the crime is committed against.
http://www.str.org/articles/is-eternal-punishment-just#.V9xcMDXgxFc​

Although Jesus quotes the rich man as saying "I am tormented in this flame." Your view seems to be some of this story is literal and some is figurative.

I guess you didn't notice I did not quote modern translations, I quoted two translations by Jewish scholars, the LXX translated almost 2000 years before the KJV and the Jewish Translation Society. If you think the Jewish translations are wrong and the KJV is the "perfect" translation you need to prove it rather than just beg the question.

It goes without saying the God can destroy anything He created but I am still waiting for that verse which states that any souls have been or will be destroyed.

How many credit hours do you have in Greek? Note how you have to add words to the verse to make it say what you want it to.
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT, who taught graduate level Greek for 47 years.

Eternal destruction (olethron aiōnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikēn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in 4 Maccabees 10:15 ton aiōnion tou turannou olethron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes). Destruction (cf. 1Th_5:3) does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation from the face of the Lord (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) and from the glory of his might (kai apo tēs doxēs tēs ischuos autou), an eternity of woe such as befell Antiochus Epiphanes. Aiōnios in itself only means age-long and papyri and inscriptions give it in the weakened sense of a Caesar’s life (Milligan), but Paul means by age-long the coming age in contrast with this age, as eternal as the New Testament knows how to make it. See note on Mat_25:46 for use of aiōnios​

Jamieson Faussett and Brown commentay.

destruction from the presence of the Lord — driven far from His presence [Alford]. The sentence emanating from Him in person, sitting as Judge [Bengel], and driving them far from Him (Mat_25:41; Rev_6:16; Rev_12:14; compare 1Pe_3:12; Isa_2:10, Isa_2:19). “The presence of the Lord” is the source whence the sentence goes forth; “the glory of His power” is the instrument whereby the sentence is carried into execution [Edmunds]. But Alford better interprets the latter clause (see 2Th_1:10), driven “from the manifestation of His power in the glorification of His saints.” Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death, the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isa_66:24; Mar_9:44).​

Illustrating your total lack of knowledge and understanding how languages are interpreted. God did not write the KJV and send it down from the mountain with Moses By your standard it is a translation by "folks not truly familiar with this language unlike the people from that time. Folks are only making educated guesses as to what the Hebrew and Greek are saying based on previous scholars educated guesses."
.....Have you ever heard of the Rosetta stone? Also there is an entire nation, Greece, which has never passed out of existence, who did not forget the history of their country and their language.

You did not quote scripture you listed a bunch of scripture references e.g. Jn 3:16, Rom 7:23, 1 Tim 3:16 etc. If you wish to show what scripture teaches, quote the scripture, in context, I don't have the time or the inclination to look up every scripture reference someone posts on this forum.

See above and try googling "Eternal punishment and God's goodness and mercy"

So you are positing there are two or three places where the wicked are sent when they die?

Do you have scripture to back up the suppositions here?

See what the Greek scholars wrote above. You are simply twisting the English translation to make it fit your assumptions/presuppositions.

The meaning of Greek words is not determined by isolated examples.

#1. You still did not explain the morality or goodness behind torturing someone way beyond a finite amount of crimes committed. Please take note that while punishment is more severe for commiting crimes against individuals of importance, there is still a limit or end to their punishment (Which would be in accordance with fair justice).

#2. You need to provide another example in Scripture besides Luke 16:19-31 whereby we clearly see the wicked (i.e. not demons like the antichrist and the false prophet) are tortured in flames.

#3. I speak and write English. I don't speak and write Greek like certain apostles did back in Bible times. In fact, nobody speaks or writes Greek today like the apostles did. So your attempt at pretending you know Greek as well as them is not exactly true. You can't assume you are an expert in something you have not personally experienced for yourself by living in that culture or time. Also, even despite the Greek language being in existence today, you would have to be intimately familiar with Modern Greek before you could tackle Biblical Greek; And even then the Greek should favor the translation of today in our own language.

#4. I have provided Scripture in the English to back up what I am saying. But you do not accept that the Word of God has been preserved in our own language today. Paul says he talked in plainness of speech. Paul did not attempt to communicate God's Word in a dead language he was not intimately familiar with.

#5. As for using examples: Well, Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. One cannot make real world examples out of something that is not true. This is just one of the many reasons why ECT is flawed. For it cannot be illustrated into a real world example.


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[rjs330]

#1. You still did not explain the morality or goodness behind torturing someone way beyond a finite amount of crimes committed. Please take note that while punishment is more severe for commiting crimes against individuals of importance, there is still a limit or end to their punishment (Which would be in accordance with fair justice).

#2. You need to provide another example in Scripture besides Luke 16:19-31 whereby we clearly see the wicked (i.e. not demons like the antichrist and the false prophet) are tortured in flames.

#3. I speak and write English. I don't speak and write Greek like certain apostles did back in Bible times. In fact, nobody speaks or writes Greek today like the apostles did. So your attempt at pretending you know Greek as well as them is not exactly true. You can't assume you are an expert in something you have not personally experienced for yourself by living in that culture or time. Also, even despite the Greek language being in existence today, you would have to be intimately familiar with Modern Greek before you could tackle Biblical Greek; And even then the Greek should favor the translation of today in our own language.

#4. I have provided Scripture in the English to back up what I am saying. But you do not accept that the Word of God has been preserved in our own language today. Paul says he talked in plainness of speech. Paul did not attempt to communicate God's Word in a dead language he was not intimately familiar with.

#5. As for using examples: Well, Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. One cannot make real world examples out of something that is not true. This is just one of the many reasons why ECT is flawed. For it cannot be illustrated into a real world example.


...

I assume you agree that God is good. The psalmist says God is good all all he does is good. The bible also declares that his judgments are righteous. Thirdly the word tells us that Gods ways are not our ways.

Put these three things together and we have the answer to how eternal punishment in hell is perfectly moral. Because it is God proclaiming and handing down the judgement. Of it were anyone else you would have a point. Since Gods judgements are perfect we accept they are moral. His ways are not ours. We are immoral.God is not. If he declares eternal punishment is moral then we need to change our understanding. The bible says right now we don't see things clearly. Our vision is blurred. Someday we will see things,clearly and it will,make sense. Of God declares it righteous then it is.