The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Chriliman]

1 Corinthians 15:25-28
"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."

If God is love and He will eventually destroy death and be all in all, then how can people exist in torment forever if God's love has filled all? <important to me to have an answer to this question.

Either God will not be all in all -or- no one will exist forever in torment. I lean towards believing that God will be all in all(no exceptions) because His word clearly states that is true, which means no one will exist forever in torment.

If everyone and everything that exists is filled with God's love then there's no room for torment in the end, anywhere. Sure some may go through torment before ultimately acknowledge God, but if God will eventually be all in all then there can't be everlasting torment. Unless you want to say that God's love causes everlasting punishment/torment, but we know based on scripture that God's love drives out fear.

1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

Some say we shouldn't rely on our logical minds to help us discern what is true about scripture, but God's truth does not contradict itself and therefore is logical, so we should be able to understand His truth with our logical minds. It only makes sense that he gave us minds so that we could understand the truth of His word.

Final thoughts: If God is love and He will eventually be all in all then His love will drive out all fear, everywhere. Fear has to do with punishment, so if all fear is gone then all punishment is gone and I believe this will eventually happen because of God and His unending love for us.

 

[Der Alte]

If a man today was engulfed in a roaring campfire, he wouldn't be asking for a little water to help his situation, he would be asking for buckets or large barrels of water to help him. A little bit of water on the tip of someone's finger would dry out before even reaching someone engulfed in a roaring campfire. But besides all that, sane or not, if somebody really was engulfed in flames today in real life, they wouldn't be able to carry on a normal conversation with you because they would be screaming too much (in pain) to pay you any kind of mind at all.

Still expecting a man who said he was being tormented in flames to think and respond logically and rationally.

In fact, it is kind of odd that there is no mention that the rich-man is not even screaming at all. Yet, that is how hell is depicted by many today when Scriptures do not say such a thing....

Jesus said that the wicked, wherever they were, would be wailing and gnashing their teeth, six times in Matt. and one time in Luk.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still expecting a man who said he was being tormented in flames to think and respond logically and rationally.

Jesus said that the wicked, wherever they were, would be wailing and gnashing their teeth, six times in Matt. and one time in Luk.

But explain to me how this level of torture is loving and good. Explain to me how torture in flames for all eternity fits the crime of a committing a finite amount of sin here on this Earth.


...

 

[Der Alte]

1 Corinthians 15:25-28
"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."
If God is love and He will eventually destroy death and be all in all, then how can people exist in torment forever if God's love has filled all? <important to me to have an answer to this question.
Either God will not be all in all -or- no one will exist forever in torment. I lean towards believing that God will be all in all(no exceptions) because His word clearly states that is true, which means no one will exist forever in torment.
If everyone and everything that exists is filled with God's love then there's no room for torment in the end, anywhere. Sure some may go through torment before ultimately acknowledge God, but if God will eventually be all in all then there can't be everlasting torment. Unless you want to say that God's love causes everlasting punishment/torment, but we know based on scripture that God's love drives out fear.
1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
Some say we shouldn't rely on our logical minds to help us discern what is true about scripture, but God's truth does not contradict itself and therefore is logical, so we should be able to understand His truth with our logical minds. It only makes sense that he gave us minds so that we could understand the truth of His word.
Final thoughts: If God is love and He will eventually be all in all then His love will drive out all fear, everywhere. Fear has to do with punishment, so if all fear is gone then all punishment is gone and I believe this will eventually happen because of God and His unending love for us.

You say "If God is love and He will eventually destroy death and be all in all, then how can people exist in torment forever if God's love has filled all? <important to me to have an answer to this question." then you quote all your proof texts, state your opinion then imply that any other view than yours is impossible. Doesn't look like you really want an answer to anything.

 

[Butch5]

wow, I didn't post the passage in place of yours but in conjunction with yours...I'm sure if you try you can understand the difference between reconciling all passages into one understanding and playing dueling passages that take extremes as truth.

How is it that you posted it in conjunction with mine yet claim, i using dueling passages. I have reconciled all of the passages. It's the other side that hasn't.

I so badly want to say duh, but I have been told that is inflammatory to some of the sensitive people on these boards. Yes, God formed man from the dust of the earth...nothing contradictory there unless of course you want to read into it what is not there. Now, look at the passage I presented that enhances this understanding...you see, according to the totality of scripture man is flesh (dust) spirit (life) and soul (eternal)

You talk about reading things into the text and yet that's just what you're doing. The text doesn't say that man is flesh dust and spirit. It says the man (flesh) and the breath of spirit of life from God "BECAME" a living soul. The text doesn't say man is three parts. He is flesh, I'll post it again.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

It's crystal clear, God formed the man of the dust of the ground. That is what a man is, the dust of the ground. It wasn't until God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man that he became something else that he was not previously. That is a living soul.

Secondly the soul is not eternal. Paul states plainly that the Father alone has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

The Father alone has immortality. So, no one is immortal. Anything that lives lives because God is continuously giving it life.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)

It's a present tense continuous actions.

The spirit and soul of man so tightly connected that only scripture is able to truly separate them (well the word of God).

It's not the Scriptures, it's Jesus.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

[/quote]that is a pretty tight connection and would inform our understanding of Gen. as to the intent of God on the matter.[/quote]

Really? So, no one could understand what man was until Paul wrote Hebrews? For thousands of years no one could understand? Are you really making that argument. No, one doesn't need to read Hebrews in order to understand Genesis.

Which is exactly what you have been shown many times over now. You see, if only God can separate the soul of man from the spirit of man, then when Gen. says God breathed life into man it is more than likely referring to both the soul and spirit.

Note the word "likely." That tells us that this is nothing more than your opinion.

To deny this is to say that the other passages that tell us man is flesh, spirit, and soul makes God out to be a liar.

To deny your opinion is to call God a liar? Are you saying that you're God?

IOW's Gen. does NOT contradict what I have said nor the passage I presented however, you and your opinion have contradicted the totality of scripture.

The passage you posted doesn't contradict Genesis. However, your interpretation of that passage certainly does just as I have shown above.

not a clue what you are trying to argue here. If man is three parts, body, soul, and spirit, then you are agreeing with me even though you insist you are disagreeing...which is very confusing to know what you are trying to say and since scripture tells us that God is not the author of confusion it would seem that Satan is somehow involved in this part of this discussion.

Nowhere have I said that man is three parts. Man is dust that dust received the breath or spirit of life from God and "became" a living soul. Show me any place in the Scriptures that say man "IS" a spirit

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post
"Still expecting a man who said he was being tormented in flames to think and respond logically and rationally.
Jesus said that the wicked, wherever they were, would be wailing and gnashing their teeth, six times in Matt. and one time in Luk."​

But explain to me how this level of torture is loving and good. Explain to me how torture in flames for all eternity fits the crime of a committing a finite amount of sin here on this Earth....

Doesn't address my post in any way. I don't judge God, He judges me. Some folks want to emphasize the love and mercy of God and forget His judgment.

Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
​

 

[razzelflabben]

1 Corinthians 15:25-28
"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."

If God is love and He will eventually destroy death and be all in all, then how can people exist in torment forever if God's love has filled all? <important to me to have an answer to this question.

what part are you having a problem with, God's Love or that God destroying death?

Actually, the ministry God has currently called me full time into is teaching Biblical Love so that would be ideal for me if that is your problem.

Either God will not be all in all -or- no one will exist forever in torment. I lean towards believing that God will be all in all(no exceptions) because His word clearly states that is true, which means no one will exist forever in torment.

how so? I think you need to lay out your exception if we are to unravel it enough to know what you don't get.

If everyone and everything that exists is filled with God's love then there's no room for torment in the end, anywhere. Sure some may go through torment before ultimately acknowledge God, but if God will eventually be all in all then there can't be everlasting torment. Unless you want to say that God's love causes everlasting punishment/torment, but we know based on scripture that God's love drives out fear.

Okay, if we go to the Strong's concordance which is a great help, we first see that it is His enemies that will be brought to subjection. Notice they will be put under His feet, that does not mean annihilated or any such thing, it means that He will exercise His authority over them.

Then we move to verse 26 where we see that the interpretation of the word destroy means

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
   2. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
   3. to terminate all intercourse with one
      

notice that it does not have to mean annihilation....we will come back to context in a moment....

The word translated death means...

1. the death of the body
   1. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
   2. with the implied idea of future misery in hell
      1. the power of death
   3. since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2. metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
   1. the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
   

Notice the context...in context we are not talking about the spiritual death but the fleshly death. So death as we are accustomed in our flesh is brought under God's authority. Now keep reading, verse 44 talks about the eternal nature of the fleshly body...notice it does NOT specify only believers but rather mankind. Now notice the difference between man and Christ based on the Gen. account in verse 45...both are spirit, one is quickened...defined as...

1. to produce alive, begat or bear living young
2. to cause to live, make alive, give life
   1. by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
   2. to restore to life
   3. to give increase of life: thus of physical life
   4. of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
3. metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
   

IOW's Christ's spirit can give life, our spirit cannot. Just like scripture tells us...we have eternal LIFE in Christ. verse 48 then tells us that our spirit either represents the world or the Christ. vers 51 clarifies for us that we are all spiritual, eternal...and again in 53...then we are back to the same death, that of the flesh, iow's not the second or spiritual death but rather the first death, the death of the flesh. Now look at verse 56, it is very important...
G1161 The sting G2759 of death G2288 is sin; G266 and G1161 the strength G1411 of sin G266 is the law. G3551
Notice the sting of death or the pain if you will...

1. a sting, as that of bees, scorpions, locusts. Since animals wound by their sting and even cause death, Paul attributes death, personified as a sting, i.e. a deadly weapon
2. an iron goad, for urging on oxen, horses and other beasts of burden
   1. hence the proverb, "to kick against the goad", i.e. to offer vain and perilous or ruinous resistance
      

the pain of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law, not punishment, but the law. what have I been saying all this time and showed a couple of times? the consequence of sin is hell, it is not the punishment for it. That is why we know that hell is just, because justice means that the law if carried out equally across the board in accordance with the law. And we finish off the passage with an admonition to remain in Christ for He is our salvation.

1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

Look at verse 17...
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

It clearly tells us that we lack fear of hell (judgment) because of Christ and His perfect Love. To inflate some other meaning to this passage is simply wrong. We have no fear of hell/judgment (remember hell is the second death also known as judgment) because of Christ's perfect and complete Love.

Some say we shouldn't rely on our logical minds to help us discern what is true about scripture, but God's truth does not contradict itself and therefore is logical, so we should be able to understand His truth with our logical minds. It only makes sense that he gave us minds so that we could understand the truth of His word.

if you are referring to me, that isn't even close to what I said. What I said is that when we understand what God intends, scripture will NOT contradict itself because God cannot lie. That being said, many here are relying on their own intellect and wisdom to justify their beliefs rather than looking at the word of God and finding consistency through things like context and translation.

Final thoughts: If God is love and He will eventually be all in all then His love will drive out all fear, everywhere. Fear has to do with punishment, so if all fear is gone then all punishment is gone and I believe this will eventually happen because of God and His unending love for us.

See the context that you are missing and if you still need to talk about God's love let me know. Many people assume that God's love is the world's view of love, that being a warm fuzzy feeling. The Love that scripture describes and says that God is, is far from a warm fuzzy feeling. In fact, it is a bold Love that often if uncomfortable.

 

[Butch5]

I am sorry, my friend. It just appears like you are basically shaking your head in disagreement with your words in your reply here and you are not really giving me any solid reason in Scripture how your interpretation is superior over mine. I am confident in my view of these verses because of the other verses I have already showed you. There is no other way to interpret Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:9-31, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 23:43 (among other verses listed) that support the belief that "people will be conscious after they die" without twisting them beyond what they actually say. The only verse that I am taking off that list (see link below) is Jonah 2:2 (Because I now believe Jonah did not die and go to Sheol based on my re-reading the chapter, praying, and by looking at many articles on discussing the topic).

Previous list given of:
Verses on being conscious after death


...

On the contrary, I've shown plainly what a man is made of. I've asked you to present some teaching from Scripture that teaches us that a man can live on after death. You haven't. You've admitted that it's been inferred. If something is inferred it is because it is "NOT" stated. The argument you're making is a logical fallacy. It's called Begging the Question or Circular reasoning. That is improper reasoning. Your premise is that the dead are conscious. As evidence of this you presented the above passages. However, in order to interpret those passages the way you do, you have to already believe that the dead are conscious. So, you've proven nothing. All you've done is restate your premise in your conclusion.

Here is an example of Circular reasoning.
Person 1: Bill's testimony is true.
Person 2: How do you know?
Person 1: Because Bill said it was true.


Your understanding of those passages is demonstrably incorrect as we have seen what man is, how he was created, and with what God created him. The "ONLY" spirit that is in man is the breath or spirit of life from God. There is no other spirit in. Thus man "CANNOT" be a spirit.

 

[Butch5]

What scripture says that the soul requires the spirit to live? Scripture says that scripture is sharp enough to separate the two but nothing about them requiring one another to exist....if they can be separated, it would seem probable that they can exist separate or I would assume there would be a scripture that would tell us otherwise.

No, Scripture doesn't say that Scripture is sharp enough to separate the soul and spirit. What we find is that Jesus is about to separate the soul and the spirit.

The passage that tells us that the soul requires the spirit is gen 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7 NKJ)

The man was not a living soul until God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life. He was a man but he wasn't a living soul without the breath or spirit of life from God.

 

[Chriliman]

You say "If God is love and He will eventually destroy death and be all in all, then how can people exist in torment forever if God's love has filled all? <important to me to have an answer to this question." then you quote all your proof texts, state your opinion then imply that any other view than yours is impossible. Doesn't look like you really want an answer to anything.

I understand your frustration and I pray that we all can find true Godly understanding on this matter.

 

[razzelflabben]

How is it that you posted it in conjunction with mine yet claim, i using dueling passages. I have reconciled all of the passages. It's the other side that hasn't.

ignoring if you can't understand the difference.

You talk about reading things into the text and yet that's just what you're doing. The text doesn't say that man is flesh dust and spirit. It says the man (flesh) and the breath of spirit of life from God "BECAME" a living soul. The text doesn't say man is three parts. He is flesh, I'll post it again.

so when the scripture says....Hebrews 4:12 (HCSB) For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart....you want us to believe that where scripture can separate the soul and spirit, it is impossible to separate because they are one and the same....sorry, I'm take scripture on this one. You have the God given right to believe what you want but don't ask me to dismiss scripture in order to agree with you.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

It's crystal clear, God formed the man of the dust of the ground. That is what a man is, the dust of the ground. It wasn't until God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man that he became something else that he was not previously. That is a living soul.

totality of scripture...totality of scripture.

Secondly the soul is not eternal. Paul states plainly that the Father alone has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

my previous post shows a passage that disagrees with your interpretation here...I'll let you go back and read it. Here is a hint for you...according to the other text, Christ's immortality is different because it quickens, that is is life giving, which is consistent with this passage.

The Father alone has immortality. So, no one is immortal. Anything that lives lives because God is continuously giving it life.

as God is creator I can't help but say duh even if you find that duh offensive. We cannot be immortal without God giving us immortality...but as created beings with body, soul, and spirit, He did give us immortality.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)

It's a present tense continuous actions.

see previous post.

It's not the Scriptures, it's Jesus.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

that is a pretty tight connection and would inform our understanding of Gen. as to the intent of God on the matter.[/quote]

Really? So, no one could understand what man was until Paul wrote Hebrews? For thousands of years no one could understand? Are you really making that argument. No, one doesn't need to read Hebrews in order to understand Genesis.[/quote]what I am saying is that Gen. and Heb. are complimentary not contradictory or God is a liar and I am not willing at this point in my life to go down that road with you.

Note the word "likely." That tells us that this is nothing more than your opinion.

obviously I am not God so I don't have the authority to say without question. In fact, I have openly talked about what we don't know about hell...so not sure what issue you are trying to make but you fell on your face trying to make it.

To deny your opinion is to call God a liar? Are you saying that you're God?

huh? I have no idea what you are even trying to argue at this point. Whatever it is, your trying too hard.

The passage you posted doesn't contradict Genesis. However, your interpretation of that passage certainly does just as I have shown above.

actually what I told you is complimentary of the Gen. passage as you have been shown. Your trying too hard to dismiss what I am saying which makes it look like you know I am right...that is at least what it looks like.

Nowhere have I said that man is three parts. Man is dust that dust received the breath or spirit of life from God and "became" a living soul. Show me any place in the Scriptures that say man "IS" a spirit

I don't even know what you are asking as it applies to what I really did say, if you could be more specific about what you do not understand I will do my best to address it. But if all you want to do is reinvent what I said and demand I defend some new argument, we are done.

 

[Butch5]

I'm going to have to take their side on this Butch.

GEN 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;

So do you believe that God is a living soul with a dirt body for His Spirit to live in? If not then how do you 'unpack' this verse theologically?

Hillsage,

This passage is not defined. What did God mean when He said that? What does it mean to be made in the image of God?

Regarding God, my understanding fits perfectly with Scripture. We are told what a living soul is when it is used of man and that includes a flesh body. However, we see that Adam didn't become a living soul until God breathed the breath or spirit of life into him. The word soul is used in the Scriptures of living beings. It's also used in the abstract of life.

19 "Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. (Gen. 19:19 NKJ)

The word life here is soul. God is the source of "ALL" life. In Scripture we find that God is spirit or breath. Breath is life. The point of being a soul is that it is living. Adam wasn't a soul until he received the breath or spirit of life from God. So, God being called a soul doesn't necessitate that God has a flesh body. We are talking about man and what he is.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, Scripture doesn't say that Scripture is sharp enough to separate the soul and spirit. What we find is that Jesus is about to separate the soul and the spirit.

let me highlight the passage for you...For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.

Now as to the rest of this, I was addressing the post that declared the soul and spirit to be one and the same and not two separate things that are closely tied together. This passage clearly states that they are not one and the same, just like I said.

The passage that tells us that the soul requires the spirit is gen 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7 NKJ)

again, I am not disagreeing with where the soul or spirit came from which is part of your problem here...you can only argue against what I am saying if you inflate what I say to something I didn't and try to argue that.

The man was not a living soul until God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life. He was a man but he wasn't a living soul without the breath or spirit of life from God.

and how does that change the claim that the soul and spirit are one and the same thing? Please explain how...how man was given the soul/spirit changes that the soul/spirit are not one and the same thing? Your argument is failing the logic test

 

[mmksparbud]

In all the stuff that has been said here, there has been nothing that states from the bible that the soul is immortal. The only time immortality is used is in relation to God.

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


There are over 400 verses in the bible using the word soul. Not one says it is immortal. But there are several that state it dies.

 

[razzelflabben]

In all the stuff that has been said here, there has been nothing that states from the bible that the soul is immortal. The only time immortality is used is in relation to God.

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


There are over 400 verses in the bible using the word soul. Not one says it is immortal. But there are several that state it dies.

I just made a long post about the immortality of man found in I Cor. 15:25-28 in post 587...before you make accusations you can't back up, maybe you should check it out.

 

[mmksparbud]

So do you believe that God is a living soul with a dirt body for His Spirit to live in? If not then how do you 'unpack' this verse theologically?

Please give a reference where any description, definition of image, likeness means to be the exact same thing as the original.
Eveything says it means
im·age
[ˈimij]
likeness · resemblance · depiction · portrayal ·
representation · statue · statuette · sculpture · bust · effigy · painting · picture · portrait · drawing · sketch

• a visible impression obtained by a camera, telescope, microscope, or other device, or displayed on a computer or video screen.
  synonyms: picture · photograph · snapshot · photo
• an optical appearance or counterpart produced by light or other radiation from an object reflected in a mirror or refracted through a lens.
  synonyms: reflection · mirror image · likeness
• mathematics
  a point or set formed by mapping from another point or set.
• computing
  an exact copy of a computer's hard disk, made for backing up data or setting up new machines.
• a mental representation or idea:
  "he had an image of Uncle Walter throwing his crutches away"
  synonyms: conception · impression · idea · perception ·
  notion · mental picture · vision · character · reputation · appearance · semblance
• a person or thing that closely resembles another:
  "he's the image of his father"
  synonyms: double · living image · look-alike · clone · copy ·
  twin · duplicate · exact likeness · mirror image · doppelgänger · spitting image · dead ringer · carbon copy · similitude

• a simile or metaphor:
  "he uses the image of a hole to describe emotional emptiness"
  synonyms: simile · metaphor · metonymy · figure of speech · trope ·
  turn of phrase · imagery

• the general impression that a person, organization, or product presents to the public:
  "she strives to project an image of youth"
  synonyms: public perception · persona · profile · reputation · stature ·
  standing · face · front · facade · mask · guise
  • semblance or likeness:
    "we are made in the image of God"
  • (in biblical use) an idol.
    synonyms: idol · icon · fetish · totem

VERB

1. make a representation of the external form of:
   "artworks that imaged women's bodies"

A painting can look very real, but it is not made up of the same as the original and is not--it represents the original, it is not equal to. I've said before, Ken and Barbie are made in our image, they are not equal to us, they are not the same thing. They have sock monkeys, teddy bears, stuff animals of all sorts that are in the image of the original--00but they are nowhere near being the same nor made of the same thing nor act in the same manner. Robots. no matter how closely they resemble us,, are still not human. This is a Japanese, like-life Robot---it is still not human. This is an image of the robot, which is made in the image of a Japanese woman-- None of which is an actual Japanese woman

 

[Butch5]

ignoring if you can't understand the difference.

I've not ignored anything. It's you guys that ignore the facts. Not one of you have yet made an attempt to show hwere this idea is taught in Scripture. Instead all that's been presented are verse of Scripture where the idea is inferred. I've shown already that that is Begging the Question.

so when the scripture says....Hebrews 4:12 (HCSB) For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart....you want us to believe that where scripture can separate the soul and spirit, it is impossible to separate because they are one and the same....sorry, I'm take scripture on this one.

I have no idea where you got that from. Is this a straw man because you're not able to address my argument?

What I said was, that Jesus is the Word of God in that passage, not Scripture. He is able to separate soul and spirit. They are not one, I didn't say they were. The spirit or breath of life from God is a part of the soul as seen in Gen 2:7. Jesus is able to separate the two. When they are separated the man dies.

You have the God given right to believe what you want but don't ask me to dismiss scripture in order to agree with you. totality of scripture...totality of scripture.

I didn't, you addressed my post. However, you're disagreeing with Scripture. Gen 2:7 is crystal clear. Man+breath or spirit of life from God= living soul. Any interpretation that contradicts this is error. You're saying man consists of three parts, body, spirit, and soul. According to Gen 2:7 man "IS" a soul, it's not a part of him.

my previous post shows a passage that disagrees with your interpretation here...I'll let you go back and read it. Here is a hint for you...according to the other text, Christ's immortality is different because it quickens, that is is life giving, which is consistent with this passage. as God is creator I can't help but say duh even if you find that duh offensive. We cannot be immortal without God giving us immortality...but as created beings with body, soul, and spirit, He did give us immortality. see previous post. that is a pretty tight connection and would inform our understanding of Gen. as to the intent of God on the matter.

It's not the passage, it's your interpretation of it. The passage fits nicely with what I've stated. Actually, it's the Father that quickens. Again, one doesn't need to read Hebrews to understand Genesis.

Imposing one's theology on Hebrews and trying to backward engineer it into Genesis is not how one interprets Scripture. Moses, David, and Solomon knew what a man was and what happened to him at death.

what I am saying is that Gen. and Heb. are complimentary not contradictory or God is a liar and I am not willing at this point in my life to go down that road with you.

They are not contradictory. What is contradictory is your interpretation of Heb 4:12. You interpret it as three parts of man. Gen 2:7 shows us that there are two parts that combine to become something else.

obviously I am not God so I don't have the authority to say without question. In fact, I have openly talked about what we don't know about hell...so not sure what issue you are trying to make but you fell on your face trying to make it.

I doubt that. The point is that you gave your opinion rather than what is in Scripture. When you say, 'it likely means', you are just telling us what you think it means. What you think a passage means and what it means can be vastly different. And, since your interpretation is contradictory to Gen 2:7 I believe it's wrong.

huh? I have no idea what you are even trying to argue at this point. Whatever it is, your trying too hard. actually what I told you is complimentary of the Gen. passage as you have been shown. Your trying too hard to dismiss what I am saying which makes it look like you know I am right...that is at least what it looks like. I don't even know what you are asking as it applies to what I really did say, if you could be more specific about what you do not understand I will do my best to address it. But if all you want to do is reinvent what I said and demand I defend some new argument, we are done.

From reading this post I don't think it's me that is misunderstanding. Your interpretation of Heb 4:12 is not complimentary to Gen 2:7 as I've point out above. You say there are three parts to man. In Gen 2:7 we see that to things combined to become something else. You say that the soul is a part of man. According to Gen 2:7 man "IS" a soul. The soul is not part of him it's what he is.

Each of you guys has come to this discussion with the idea that the dead are conscious, yet not one of you has made a case from Scripture showing this. All that has been presented are passage from with that idea is inferred. It's Begging the Question. The premise is that the dead are conscious. The passages were presented. However, to interpret those passages as evidence one must begin with the idea that the dead are conscious that is Begging the question, a Logical fallacy.

Here is a link to a definition of Begging the Questions.

 

[mmksparbud]

I just made a long post about the immortality of man found in I Cor. 15:25-28 in post 587...before you make accusations you can't back up, maybe you should check it out.

Might possibly be because I csn find no post 587---it goes from 580 to 592----

Oh, wait, I hadn't gone to the last page and then those other posts came up.

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
   2. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
   3. to terminate all intercourse with one

notice that it does not have to mean annihilation....we will come back to context in a moment....

Destroy---You say it does not have to mean annihilation--true, you can destroy someone's power, without destroying them. Context is what it is all about. Now---I see nothing in all of this that states the soul is immortal and can not die. I see a lot of conjecture on your part--but nothing that states the soul is immortal. Now, I am very tired, have many health issues and have not slept good in weeks--so maybe my hazy brain missed it--just please quote it.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(if it does not mean cease to exist--what context does kill not mean the same as death--to cause to cease to exist?)
Mat_16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I am not able to stay here very long at a time now, I have to stop frequently and try to sleep---sorry, I am being inconsistent, I'll try later, but may have to give up for a while, it's hard to catch up.

 

[Der Alte]

I understand your frustration and I pray that we all can find true Godly understanding on this matter.

Got a chuckle out of this. You're funny.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(if it does not mean cease to exist--what context does kill not mean the same as death--to cause to cease to exist?)

What God created He can certainly destroy but I do not know of any verse which states any souls have been or will be destroyed.

Mat_16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Lose does not mean destroy.

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In this passage soul refers to a person dying for their own sin not the sin of another.