The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

Maybe fatal flaws due to a couple of proof texts. I don't think their reconciled just not that far removed.

but if it cannot be reconciled with basic comprehension rules then God is made out to be a liar by the contradiction in scripture, right? Right...personally I don't believe God to be a liar so if they want to justify their opinions they need to do so not through "man's logic" but through a study of the word that rightly divides that word, right? Right...so far the only side that even comes close is eternal torment.

Which begs the question of what is actually being said and what is meant.

right! But God wrote or authored, breathed, whatever term you want to put on it, the scriptures as a communication for us. He knows us intimately. He tells us to study the word so that we will not be led astray. when we study the word of God using the rules that tell us an authors intent, only one side of this issue seems to hold weight. When we add challenge to see if it is going to hold up to scrutiny, again, only one version seems to hold up. Even here on this thread, only one version has not been challenged with comprehension rules. Which begs the question, if only one version holds up to truth, why do we believe every other version and if that version that is holding up is false, why isn't anyone challenging it so that it can be proven false? My theory has to do with the idols of tradition and man's superiority more so than anything else. when we worship our traditions or man's wisdom, we fail to worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

It nice that you are sharing so much from you personal journey but this for me is a process. The creation took me over five years to finally nail down, going into it theistic evolution was an option. My first couple of years I struggled with the Incarnation. There's been baptisms, tongues, infallibility, justification by faith and I guarantee I could show you expositions you have never seen or could ever refute. Its a process where ingredients are measured, and prepared. I'm getting ready to put it in the oven now, I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm getting close to drawing some conclusions.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I'll look forward to what you conclude...as I said, I am determined to know all of the God of the Bible that I can know and where man can help us find that God, God alone can reveal Himself to us. May you find the God you seek and may He guard you from deceptions that come from Satan through man.

 

[Butch5]

as I said, to not reconcile the two passages is to say that God is a liar which I personally am not willing to do. I see nothing in Gen that contradicts I Thess. until or unless you can show how to reconcile the two passages without destroying what the totality of scripture says, you simply will not convince me because I am a firm believer that scripture is the word of God given to man and as such, cannot lie. End of story

You see, playing dueling scriptures is NOT addressing the issue, it is a method of avoidance which is pretty common in this discussion. I do not believe in playing dueling scripture because I believe that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED...not just the passages we want to hold to. Now, in light of that, if you want to address the passages please do, otherwise, you have failed to do as you claim.

If you don't like dueling passages then why did you post this passage. I have plainly made the case from Gen 2:7. If you see nothing in Genesis that contradicts 1 Thessalonians then what is your argument and why then did you post the verse?

I've shown several times from Gen 2:7 that God created man from the dust of the earth.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7 NKJ)

This is as plain as can be. Man was formed from the dust of the ground. Man is of the elements of the earth. There's nothing else listed here that was used to create man. However, notice the man isn't alive. It's when God breathes His spirit or breath of life into the man that the man "becomes" a living soul. It's clear from this passage that a soul consist of the man and the breath or spirit of life from God. Two things combine to become another. Man "is" a living soul that consists of the man (dust of the earth) and the breath or spirit of God.

You said that man consists of three parts. That is not correct. The two parts combine to become a third. The man without the breath or spirit of God is not a soul. A soul is a living being. Before God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man the man was not a soul.

In the passage you quoted Paul simply denotes the whole man, his two components and the life created by their coming together.

 

[Butch5]

as your trying to figure out a way to reconcile the passages, let me remind you of this passage....Heb. 4:12 where we are told that the soul and spirit are not one and the same thing.

OF course they're not the same thing. One is part of the other. The soul is the living being, the spirit or breath of life from God is what gives life to the body, the man. So, what is the division of soul and spirit. It's simply the taking of one's life. God is able to take back His breath or spirit of life at which point a person dies. The soul requires the spirit or breath of life in order to exist. If God separates them the person dies.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll try again, I guess.

“The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered in burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:40 -42, italics added).


“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:7).

2 Peter 3:7, we discover:

• A real fire is coming.
• It will burn “the heavens” – the polluted atmosphere we breathe.
• It will burn “the earth” – the ground we walk on.
• These flames will blaze on “the day of judgment.”
• “Ungodly men” will end up in this fire.

Three verses later, Peter elaborated further,

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10).

This passage is crystal clear: At some point in the future the sky above and the earth beneath will literally catch fire and “melt with fervent heat.” So if you’ve been taught that the sum total of hell-fire is some smoky place beneath the ground, think again. The Bible says our entire sin-polluted planet is destined for the flames. Peter concluded with this comforting assurance:

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness dwells.” (2 Peter 3:1)

The earth and heavens will melt away--everything will be burnt up, and everything will be made new


The book of Revelation teaches the same message about a future Judgment Day and cleansing fire, followed by a new heaven and earth. After every lost soul is “judged… according to their works” (Revelation 20:13), then,

“Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away… And he that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” (Revelation 20:15; 21:1, 5).

Here’s the inspired sequence:

• Judgment Day
• The Lake of Fire
• A New Heaven and Earth

Thus we have seen, so far, that Jesus Christ, Peter, and the book of Revelation teach the same thing. Real fire is coming at the end of this world. It will not only become the place where the lost are punished, but will serve a dual function of purifying our polluted sky and ground from every vestige of impurity. Then God will make a new heaven and earth to become the eternal home of His saved, blood-bought children.

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus Christ warned that unsaved sinners will enter “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Yet Jesus Christ also declared, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16,
“The devil,” along with “the beast” will “be tormented day and night forever” in the lake of fire (see Revelation 20:10).
Yet Ezekiel chapter 28 reveals a different picture. Initially discussing the ancient “king of Tyre” (Ezekiel 28:12), God’s prophet then looks behind the scenes and identifies Lucifer himself, “the anointed cherub” (verse 14), who inhabited “Eden, the garden of God” (verse 13), and who was originally “perfect in [his] ways from the day [he] was created,” until “iniquity was found in [him]” (verse 15). Moving forward to this fallen angel’s final fate, God declares, “I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you… You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever” (verses 18 and 19, italics added).
“‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly, will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” says the Lord of hosts, “That it will leave them neither root nor branch’” … ‘[And] you shall trample down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the souls of your feet on the day that I do this, says the Lord of hosts’” (Malachi 4:1, 3).
“As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” (Psalms 68:2, italics added).

“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more.” (Psalms 37:10, italics added).

“The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” (Psalms 37:20, italics added).

“But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” (Psalms 37:38, italics added).

John the Baptist proclaimed about the Messiah,

“He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added).

(unquenchable fire--a fire that can not be out till it consumes everything)

Paul wrote about those who “obey not the gospel”,
“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction…” (2 Thessalonians 1:9, italics added).

Paul also declared,

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23, italics added).
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

Notice carefully: it was the physical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that “suffered the vengeance of eternal fire,” not just the people. In addition, their punishment is “set forth as an example” of what will happen to the unsaved. In 2 Peter, we find an almost identical verse, yet Peter inserts one tiny, significant detail. Look closely:

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto all those that after should live ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:6, italics added).

What was the net result of that “eternal fire” which fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah ? Those cities became ashes. But that’s not all. Describing “the punishment of the sin of Sodom,” Jeremiah said that those evil cities were “overthrown as in a moment” (Lamentations 4:6, italics added). Now put the pieces together. By comparing Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 with Lamentations 4:6, we discover plainly that the “the vengeance of eternal fire” was so incredibly hot that it reduced Sodom and Gomorrah “into ashes” in “a moment” of time. Now think about it. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still destroyed? Yes. But are they burning now? Obviously not. Then what does “eternal fire” mean? By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it means that the fire came from God and that the punishment lasts forever, not the flames. And again, both Jude and Peter called this punishment “an example” of what will happen to all the lost.
“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41, italics added). Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 7, one which destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later our Lord clarified, “And these [the lost] shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). Thus the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like the Sodomites.

Paul also wrote about “everlasting” consequences overwhelming unsaved sinners. Paul warned that when Jesus Christ returns He will come “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9, italics added). Here “everlasting” is combined with “destruction,” which means the lost are destroyed forever, just like the Gomorrahites.

In addition to Jesus Christ, Jude, and Paul, John the Baptist also warned about “unquenchable fire” engulfing the unredeemed. On the surface, one might assume John was referring to ceaselessly burning flames. But he wasn’t. Calling the saved “wheat” and the lost “chaff,” the wilderness prophet announced that God’s Messiah would “thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added). Thus “unquenchable fire” isn’t fire that burns forever, but fire that can’t be snuffed out by man. It burns up the chaff until there is nothing left.
Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:41, 46), John the Baptist (Matthew 3:12), Paul (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9) and Jude (verse 7) all predicted that “eternal fire,” “everlasting fire,” and “unquenchable fire,” will eventually “burn up” all unsaved sinners to their “everlasting destruction,” just like Sodom and Gomorrah became “ashes” in “a moment.” And Sodom ’s holy judgment is “set forth as an example” (Jude 7) to us today.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Opposite of life is death---life is consciousness, awareness, existence. Death is lack of consciousness, lack of awareness, lack of existence. Eternal life is eternal consciousness, eternal existence, eternal awareness. Eternal death is eternal unconsciousness, eternal nonexistence.

there are so many flaws in this and so many passages that challenge it, even your claim here of Jesus, John, Paul and Jude saying that the wicked are no more is not at all what those passages say. It would be nice if it was. I have some people dear to me that I fear will face eternity without our Lord, but we cannot allow man's understanding and wisdom to color what scripture says as you are doing here. In fact, if we boil all of this down what we come up with is this quote...."Opposite of life is death---life is consciousness, awareness, existence. Death is lack of consciousness, lack of awareness, lack of existence. Eternal life is eternal consciousness, eternal existence, eternal awareness. Eternal death is eternal unconsciousness, eternal nonexistence." which relies on man's logic to come to that conclusion not a study of the word of God using comprehension rules. And this is the best argument so far for temporal or no punishment and it falls terribly short of the litmus test I proposed.

 

[Butch5]

It is not saying the ability to think ends, but that the
thoughts of what a man wanted to do in this life
perish.

Really? Where do you see that in the passage? This argument is really circular reasoning. Your argument assumes what it's trying to prove. The premise of the argument is that man can think when he's dead. Your statement then says the passage only applies to this life.

 

[aiki]

But you are making assumptions about the fire, too.
However, it makes more sense that the fire would behave like normal fire in the after-life because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world world examples (i.e. parables).
For Jesus accepted an extended parable or real world example (that was based upon Jesus's parable) from the Canaanite woman.

What assumption about the fire have I made? Really, I have asserted nothing about it except that it may be different than the fire we know and I gave a reason - from Scripture's description of Hellfire - why I am justified in thinking this. At least in its unquenchable-ness, we know Hellfire is different from normal fire. I don't, see, then, that it does make more sense to think of it the way you are.

We need verses showing us that the fire is not like the fire here. Yes, the fire is said to be unquenchable, but even forest fires can appear this way, as well. It doesn't mean they will last forever. Yes, the Scriptures say there is an "everlasting fire" but this is merely another word for saying the fire is unquenchable during the time of it's intended purpose.

The apostle John makes an unqualified statement about the unquenchable nature of Hellfire. He doesn't liken it to anything as you do here, lessening the meaning of his description in doing so. The fire is unquenchable. Period. And John reinforces this reading in his description of the flaming torment of Hell in Revelation:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Well, this is describing the final end for the wicked whereby they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is not talking about hell here.

What you claim is not in evidence in the passage. You're reading your ideas into the passage in order to make it conform to them. It seems very plain to me that Hell, as in the fiery place of eternal torment (as opposed to its other referents: Sheol, Hades, etc.), is, in the end, the Lake of Fire. And in it the wicked will suffer unending punishment, tormented by Hellfire (hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth) but never consumed by it.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

If you don't like dueling passages then why did you post this passage. I have plainly made the case from Gen 2:7. If you see nothing in Genesis that contradicts 1 Thessalonians then what is your argument and why then did you post the verse?

wow, I didn't post the passage in place of yours but in conjunction with yours...I'm sure if you try you can understand the difference between reconciling all passages into one understanding and playing dueling passages that take extremes as truth.

I've shown several times from Gen 2:7 that God created man from the dust of the earth.

I so badly want to say duh, but I have been told that is inflammatory to some of the sensitive people on these boards. Yes, God formed man from the dust of the earth...nothing contradictory there unless of course you want to read into it what is not there.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7 NKJ)

This is as plain as can be. Man was formed from the dust of the ground. Man is of the elements of the earth. There's nothing else listed here that was used to create man. However, notice the man isn't alive. It's when God breathes His spirit or breath of life into the man that the man "becomes" a living soul. It's clear from this passage that a soul consist of the man and the breath or spirit of life from God. Two things combine to become another. Man "is" a living soul that consists of the man (dust of the earth) and the breath or spirit of God.

Now, look at the passage I presented that enhances this understanding...you see, according to the totality of scripture man is flesh (dust) spirit (life) and soul (eternal) The spirit and soul of man so tightly connected that only scripture is able to truly separate them (well the word of God). that is a pretty tight connection and would inform our understanding of Gen. as to the intent of God on the matter. Which is exactly what you have been shown many times over now. You see, if only God can separate the soul of man from the spirit of man, then when Gen. says God breathed life into man it is more than likely referring to both the soul and spirit. To deny this is to say that the other passages that tell us man is flesh, spirit, and soul makes God out to be a liar. IOW's Gen. does NOT contradict what I have said nor the passage I presented however, you and your opinion have contradicted the totality of scripture.

You said that man consists of three parts. That is not correct. The two parts combine to become a third. The man without the breath or spirit of God is not a soul. A soul is a living being. Before God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man the man was not a soul.

In the passage you quoted Paul simply denotes the whole man, his two components and the life created by their coming together.

not a clue what you are trying to argue here. If man is three parts, body, soul, and spirit, then you are agreeing with me even though you insist you are disagreeing...which is very confusing to know what you are trying to say and since scripture tells us that God is not the author of confusion it would seem that Satan is somehow involved in this part of this discussion.

 

[razzelflabben]

OF course they're not the same thing. One is part of the other. The soul is the living being, the spirit or breath of life from God is what gives life to the body, the man. So, what is the division of soul and spirit. It's simply the taking of one's life. God is able to take back His breath or spirit of life at which point person dies. The soul requires the spirit or breath of life in order to exist. If God separates them the person dies.

God is God and can do anything He wants, but the question is, where in scripture does it say that God takes back the gift of life that He gave to man when He created them? I don't see that scripture....you can inflate that from various passages taken out of context but unless you do that, you simply can't make the case.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where do those Psalms say that? They don't. They prove that what you're claiming cannot be true. Why not believe the Scriptures rather than a doctrine?



Jesus' statement makes it crystal clear that a spirit does not have flesh and bone. There is a spirit in man, it's God's breath or spirit of life. The point is that man isn't a spirit.

There isn't a passage of Scripture in the Bible that says people are spiritually dead. That is a teaching from men. The passages you quoted here say noting about the spirit. That you said, "meaning" shows us that you are inferring something from the text that is not stated.

All of these are inferences. You've still not established a teaching from the Scriptures that man can live apart from the body.

I am sorry, my friend. It just appears like you are basically shaking your head in disagreement with your words in your reply here and you are not really giving me any solid reason in Scripture how your interpretation is superior over mine. I am confident in my view of these verses because of the other verses I have already showed you. There is no other way to interpret Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:9-31, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 23:43 (among other verses listed) that support the belief that "people will be conscious after they die" without twisting them beyond what they actually say. The only verse that I am taking off that list (see link below) is Jonah 2:2 (Because I now believe Jonah did not die and go to Sheol based on my re-reading the chapter, praying, and by looking at many articles on discussing the topic).

Previous list given of:
Verses on being conscious after death


...

 

[razzelflabben]

LOL! Now it's, well only certain thoughts are ended! Is that what is says?
"in that very day his thoughts perish." (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)
Next comes,--but perish doesn't mean perish--and only certain thoughts perish!
Anhything to avoid the truth of nonexistence and a permanent death. But if we show were eternal fire, unquenchable fire can mean something else--such as Sodom is still not burning, but no one could have put that fire out--we're not reading the text correctly!
Whatever. I still do not understand the unquenchable need some people have to have people being tormented forever.

You two can hash this out but let me remind you that upon salvation we die to self or iow's put on the new man. the new man has new thoughts, iow's the sinful thoughts and desires are replaced with Godly thoughts and desires. this is a scriptural basic. As such it is totally reasonable and consistent with the totality of scripture to say that our thoughts will "change" that we will no longer be concerned with the things of this earth and the sensual desires that hold us prisoner. IOW's a clarity of thought about the eternal...about God...a new understanding so to speak. So, if we are allowing the totality of scripture to define for us what hell is, you are wrong to assume that means no consciousness...carry on...

 

[aiki]

"This is something you're reading into the passage entirely. No where does Scripture even hint that the Lake of Fire has any role to play in the fiery consumption of the present heavens and Earth. This is a connection formed only in your imagination.

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10).

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Neither of these passages indicate what you've asserted: that the present heavens and earth will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. You must read this idea into these passages. It is a non sequitur to assert that because the heavens and earth will be consumed by fire it must be in the Lake of Fire that this is accomplished. This is akin to thinking that because you and I both have noses we are, therefore, the same person. This one similarity between us does not necessarily make us synonymous. In the same way, it is unreasonable to think that the fire mentioned in 2Peter 3:7 and 10 is the very same fire spoken of in Revelation 20:15.

Last time I looked----nobody was there.

“The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered in burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:40 -42,

No until the end of the world.

Then you need to read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. He was in torment in flames immediately after he died. The wicked of Sodom and Gomorrah may not yet be in the actual Lake of Fire, but they are, like the Rich Man, in fiery torment nonetheless.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

Whatever. I still do not understand the unquenchable need some people have to have people being tormented forever.

I can't figure out why some of you all think that it is our choice if hell is eternal or not...isn't truth defined by God and not our opinions and hopes?

 

[razzelflabben]

You realize it's possible that you and everyone you ever loved may go there, right? So you think you're all getting what you deserve? And if you really think everyone gets what they deserve.......yikes.

let me lay an uncomfortable truth on you...I am so in Love with the glimpse of God that I have been granted that I would gladly go to hell if only for a moment with my Lord. IOW's where I know I will not be in hell and I know that hell is torment forever and ever, God is so much more that there is nothing that can compare to being in His presence. If it took hell to serve my Lord and King, so be it, He is absolutely worthy.

 

[razzelflabben]

OF course they're not the same thing. One is part of the other. The soul is the living being, the spirit or breath of life from God is what gives life to the body, the man. So, what is the division of soul and spirit. It's simply the taking of one's life. God is able to take back His breath or spirit of life at which point a person dies. The soul requires the spirit or breath of life in order to exist. If God separates them the person dies.

What scripture says that the soul requires the spirit to live? Scripture says that scripture is sharp enough to separate the two but nothing about them requiring one another to exist....if they can be separated, it would seem probable that they can exist separate or I would assume there would be a scripture that would tell us otherwise.

 

[Hillsage]

OF course they're not the same thing. One is part of the other. The soul is the living being, the spirit or breath of life from God is what gives life to the body, the man. So, what is the division of soul and spirit. It's simply the taking of one's life. God is able to take back His breath or spirit of life at which point a person dies. The soul requires the spirit or breath of life in order to exist. If God separates them the person dies.

I'm going to have to take their side on this Butch.

GEN 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;

So do you believe that God is a living soul with a dirt body for His Spirit to live in? If not then how do you 'unpack' this verse theologically?

 

[mark kennedy]

but if it cannot be reconciled with basic comprehension rules then God is made out to be a liar by the contradiction in scripture, right? Right...personally I don't believe God to be a liar so if they want to justify their opinions they need to do so not through "man's logic" but through a study of the word that rightly divides that word, right? Right...so far the only side that even comes close is eternal torment. right! But God wrote or authored, breathed, whatever term you want to put on it, the scriptures as a communication for us. He knows us intimately. He tells us to study the word so that we will not be led astray. when we study the word of God using the rules that tell us an authors intent, only one side of this issue seems to hold weight. When we add challenge to see if it is going to hold up to scrutiny, again, only one version seems to hold up. Even here on this thread, only one version has not been challenged with comprehension rules. Which begs the question, if only one version holds up to truth, why do we believe every other version and if that version that is holding up is false, why isn't anyone challenging it so that it can be proven false? My theory has to do with the idols of tradition and man's superiority more so than anything else. when we worship our traditions or man's wisdom, we fail to worship the ONE TRUE GOD. I'll look forward to what you conclude...as I said, I am determined to know all of the God of the Bible that I can know and where man can help us find that God, God alone can reveal Himself to us. May you find the God you seek and may He guard you from deceptions that come from Satan through man.

The whole point of this has been doctrinal for me, God's faithfulness was never in question. When it comes to rightly dividing the word there is a process to that for me and I have found one verse the tells us they will be tormented day and night forever. Everything else is ambiquise and the Old Testament Sheol is synonymous with death and the grace. Eliminating poetic expressions you have nothing in the Old Testament close to the concept of hell in the New Testament. Nothing will get you annihilation from a strict exposition of the texts but by and large it still has considerable merit.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[razzelflabben]

The whole point of this has been doctrinal for me, God's faithfulness was never in question. When it comes to rightly dividing the word there is a process to that for me and I have found one verse the tells us they will be tormented day and night forever. Everything else is ambiquise and the Old Testament Sheol is synonymous with death and the grace. Eliminating poetic expressions you have nothing in the Old Testament close to the concept of hell in the New Testament. Nothing will get you annihilation from a strict exposition of the texts but by and large it still has considerable merit.

Grace and peace,
Mark

actually there are several passages, but as I have said before, there is much about hell we do not know, those things we need to accept by faith. It is what we do know that we should be discussing here not all the inferences that are happening. At least if we want to know what God intends for us to know.

 

[mark kennedy]

As promised, my conclusions. Do note this doesn't include words like Hades and Tartars so it's anything but exhaustive:

actually there are several passages, but as I have said before, there is much about hell we do not know, those things we need to accept by faith. It is what we do know that we should be discussing here not all the inferences that are happening. At least if we want to know what God intends for us to know.

Totally disagree - it does not work at all in the majority of the proof texts. Please prove that it does.

שְׁאוֹל

shĕ'owl sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1. the underworld
   
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
   
   1. place of no return
      
   2. without praise of God
      
   3. wicked sent there for punishment
      
   4. righteous not abandoned to it
      
   5. of the place of exile (fig)
      
   6. of extreme degradation in sin

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7585&t=KJV

Jonah cried out from sheol or hell.

"And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." (Jonah 2:2)​

How can somebody cry out from the dead of the grave? It doesn't make any sense. Jonah died and cried out from hell. He was one of the very few that was given a second chance.


...

While I studied this I noticed something about the word for Hell in the New Testament, at least twice it's used in connection with conversation:

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. (James 3:6)
​

There nothing wrong with taking an apologetic stand but calling your brother a fool, or treating him like one because you disagree is more dangerous then you know. Vine's has an excellent exposition on the word for Hell, thought I would share it:

He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of "the hell of fire," Mat 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his "whole body be cast into hell," Mat 5:29; similarly with the hand, Mat 5:30; in Mat 18:8, 9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the "body" stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, "the eternal fire" is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase "the hell of fire," ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mar 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word "hell" are applied the extended descriptions "the unquenchable fire" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." (Vines Dictionary)
​

Hell as we understand it in the Old Testament is virtually unknown. The word for Hell, γέεννα (geenna), is introduced by the Lord during the Sermon on the Mount. It is used 12 times in the New Testament, 11 times in the synoptic gospels by the Lord himself. The word is actually the name for a valley where the children of Israel used to toss their infant children as a sacrifice to Molech, the practice was known as making your children pass through the fire.

Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. (Outline of Biblical Usuage)
​

There are other passages that describe Hell:

• "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:42)
• "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46)
• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
• But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:39
• These are wells without water, clouds* carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (2Pet. 2:17)
• raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 1:13)
• He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
• Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20)
• The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where* the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
• Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev 20:14)
• "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Notice Rev. 20:10 says they will be tormented forever. Other places the fire is said to burn forever but the appears to be the only place that insists that they are tormented forever, at least in my estimation. I don't see much to argue about here, annihilation is one way of reading the texts in question that one proof text not withstanding. For me the one thing that was intriguing about the subject matter was the connection to Sheol, it's synonymous with the grave. There is one reference that resembles the New Testament concept of Hell, and it's in the Law :

For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell;
It shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:22)
​

It is translated Hell other places in the Old Testament as well:

2 Sam 22:6, Job 11:8, Job 26:6, Psa 9:17, Psa 16:10, Psa 18:5, Psa 55:15, Psa 86:13, Psa 116:3, Psa 139:8, Prov 5:5, Prov 7:27, Prov 9:18, Prov 15:11, Prov 15:24, Prov 23:14, Prov 27:20, Isa 5:14, Isa 14:9, Isa 14:15, Isa 28:15, Isa 28:18, Isa 57:9, Eze 31:16, Eze 31:17, Eze 32:21, Eze 32:27, Amos 9:2, Jonah 2:2, Hab 2:5
​

The rest are translated grave(s),

For I will go down into the grave H7585 unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35; 42:38; Gen. 44:29,31)

1 Sam 2:6, 1 Ki 2:6, 1 Ki 2:9, Job 7:9, Job 14:13, Job 17:13, Job 21:13, Job 24:19, Psa 6:5, Psa 30:3, Psa 31:17, Psa 49:14, Psa 49:14, Psa 49:15, Psa 88:3, Psa 89:48, Prov 1:12, Prov 30:16, Eccl 9:10, S of Solomon 8:6, Isa 14:11, Isa 38:10, Isa 38:18, Eze 31:15, Hos 13:14, Hos 13:14 Psa 141:7
​

The traditional understanding of Hell stands up well under close scrutiny, the children of perdition will be utterly destroyed in Hell but the term Jesus uses isn't a complete destruction as if being burned to ashes:

G622 - (apollymi ἀπόλλυμι) Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive:
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. (Vine's)​

The doctrine of Hell involves final judgment, the fate of the children and their condition in eternity isn't the point of the doctrine. Ultimately it's a warning of how to escape Hell through the person and work of Christ. Splitting semantic hairs seems a tedious task for Christians interested in working in doctrine. We certainly have no call to be divisive and argumentative over the issue. I had never encountered the concept of annihilation, although I rejected soul sleep years ago as being strictly non-biblical and still do. Here I decided to explore the concept of annihilation and while it has it's merits it fails to pass the acid test of Scripture with one verse, which makes it dubious at best.

Other then that I think it's been a fascinating and productive discussion, many thanks to the posters for their contribution. It was very engaging.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[razzelflabben]

As promised, my conclusions. Do note this doesn't include words like Hades and Tartars so it's anything but exhaustive:





While I studied this I noticed something about the word for Hell in the New Testament, at least twice it's used in connection with conversation:

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. (James 3:6)
​

There nothing wrong with taking an apologetic stand but calling your brother a fool, or treating him like one because you disagree is more dangerous then you know. Vine's has an excellent exposition on the word for Hell, thought I would share it:

He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of "the hell of fire," Mat 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his "whole body be cast into hell," Mat 5:29; similarly with the hand, Mat 5:30; in Mat 18:8, 9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the "body" stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, "the eternal fire" is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase "the hell of fire," ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mar 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word "hell" are applied the extended descriptions "the unquenchable fire" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." (Vines Dictionary)
​

Hell as we understand it in the Old Testament is virtually unknown. The word for Hell, γέεννα (geenna), is introduced by the Lord during the Sermon on the Mount. It is used 12 times in the New Testament, 11 times in the synoptic gospels by the Lord himself. The word is actually the name for a valley where the children of Israel used to toss their infant children as a sacrifice to Molech, the practice was known as making your children pass through the fire.

Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. (Outline of Biblical Usuage)
​

There are other passages that describe Hell:

• "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:42)
• "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46)
• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
• But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:39
• These are wells without water, clouds* carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (2Pet. 2:17)
• raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 1:13)
• He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
• Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20)
• The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where* the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
• Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev 20:14)
• "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Notice Rev. 20:10 says they will be tormented forever. Other places the fire is said to burn forever but the appears to be the only place that insists that they are tormented forever, at least in my estimation. I don't see much to argue about here, annihilation is one way of reading the texts in question that one proof text not withstanding. For me the one thing that was intriguing about the subject matter was the connection to Sheol, it's synonymous with the grave. There is one reference that resembles the New Testament concept of Hell, and it's in the Law :

For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell;
It shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:22)
​

It is translated Hell other places in the Old Testament as well:

2 Sam 22:6, Job 11:8, Job 26:6, Psa 9:17, Psa 16:10, Psa 18:5, Psa 55:15, Psa 86:13, Psa 116:3, Psa 139:8, Prov 5:5, Prov 7:27, Prov 9:18, Prov 15:11, Prov 15:24, Prov 23:14, Prov 27:20, Isa 5:14, Isa 14:9, Isa 14:15, Isa 28:15, Isa 28:18, Isa 57:9, Eze 31:16, Eze 31:17, Eze 32:21, Eze 32:27, Amos 9:2, Jonah 2:2, Hab 2:5
​

The rest are translated grave(s),

For I will go down into the grave H7585 unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35; 42:38; Gen. 44:29,31)

1 Sam 2:6, 1 Ki 2:6, 1 Ki 2:9, Job 7:9, Job 14:13, Job 17:13, Job 21:13, Job 24:19, Psa 6:5, Psa 30:3, Psa 31:17, Psa 49:14, Psa 49:14, Psa 49:15, Psa 88:3, Psa 89:48, Prov 1:12, Prov 30:16, Eccl 9:10, S of Solomon 8:6, Isa 14:11, Isa 38:10, Isa 38:18, Eze 31:15, Hos 13:14, Hos 13:14 Psa 141:7
​

The traditional understanding of Hell stands up well under close scrutiny, the children of perdition will be utterly destroyed in Hell but the term Jesus uses isn't a complete destruction as if being burned to ashes:

G622 - (apollymi ἀπόλλυμι) Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive:
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. (Vine's)​

The doctrine of Hell involves final judgment, the fate of the children and their condition in eternity isn't the point of the doctrine. Ultimately it's a warning of how to escape Hell through the person and work of Christ. Splitting semantic hairs seems a tedious task for Christians interested in working in doctrine. We certainly have no call to be divisive and argumentative over the issue. I had never encountered the concept of annihilation, although I rejected soul sleep years ago as being strictly non-biblical and still do. Here I decided to explore the concept of annihilation and while it has it's merits it fails to pass the acid test of Scripture with one verse, which makes it dubious at best.

Other then that I think it's been a fascinating and productive discussion, many thanks to the posters for their contribution. It was very engaging.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You presented both sides of the argument, showed reconciliation of all passages, all in all, well done...I couple of minor issues but nothing that would make any difference....

 

[mark kennedy]

actually there are several passages, but as I have said before, there is much about hell we do not know, those things we need to accept by faith. It is what we do know that we should be discussing here not all the inferences that are happening. At least if we want to know what God intends for us to know.

Well thanks, I spent more time on Sheol then I expected but all in all a worthwhile study. I had just never heard of this before, after studying it out I have to wonder why not.

Grace and peace,
Mark