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The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mmksparbud

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It is not saying the ability to think ends, but that the
thoughts of what a man wanted to do in this life
perish.


LOL! Now it's, well only certain thoughts are ended! Is that what is says?
"in that very day his thoughts perish." (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)
Next comes,--but perish doesn't mean perish--and only certain thoughts perish!
Anhything to avoid the truth of nonexistence and a permanent death. But if we show were eternal fire, unquenchable fire can mean something else--such as Sodom is still not burning, but no one could have put that fire out--we're not reading the text correctly!
Whatever. I still do not understand the unquenchable need some people have to have people being tormented forever.
 
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bill5

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In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve.
You realize it's possible that you and everyone you ever loved may go there, right? So you think you're all getting what you deserve? And if you really think everyone gets what they deserve.......yikes.

I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false.
I will suggest......no wait, in fact I am stating here and now...that your conclusions are faulty.

Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light;
Since everyone other than Jesus and Mary did this, according to you, scripture puts Moses, Abraham, the Apostles (the list goes on) in a heinously evil light.

Sure you want to stick w/that?

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell
None of that backs up anything you said.


This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell
If this is "another way," why did you basically just restate the same stuff again?

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God.
Also a ludicrous house of cards. I esp love the "murder of God" part.
 
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Achilles6129

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Its a semantical point based on a couple of proof texts. What I got from the discussion was the connection of sheol and hell. Anniliation vs eternal torment is actually an alternate reading that works in the majority of the proof texts.
Totally disagree - it does not work at all in the majority of the proof texts. Please prove that it does.
 
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What verse are you thnking of? I have wondered if Jonah
was in or out of his body when he knew the weeds were
wrapped about his head.

Jonah 2:5 The waters compassed me about, [even] to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

He did die before the fish ate his empty of his soul body.
He then prayed from hell. Later, he prayed from inside of the
fish-mentioning his earlier prayer and how God had heard him.

Yes, before I read your post here or anyone elses (so as to be convinced differently), I was re-reading Jonah 2 over and over (prayerfully) and reading many various articles on whether or not Jonah went to hell. I am now strongly leaning in the other direction now that Jonah did not die and go to hell (i.e. Sheol or the realm of the dead). Jesus said Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale. This would not make sense if he was also in Sheol. Jesus compared His being in the Heart of the Earth (Sheol) with Jonah being within the belly of the whale (and not Sheol). So yes, I cannot use Jonah 2 as a case for the existence of "Sheol" or the realm of the dead. But that does not mean there are not other verses that prove that there is a Sheol, though.


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If we understand that the rich man was actually being tormented in flames would we really expect rational, coherent thought from him? Anything he said would be tinged with fear, anxiety, panic etc. so an otherwise irrational comment like "send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame" would not be unusual.

If a man today was engulfed in a roaring campfire, he wouldn't be asking for a little water to help his situation, he would be asking for buckets or large barrels of water to help him. A little bit of water on the tip of someone's finger would dry out before even reaching someone engulfed in a roaring campfire. But besides all that, sane or not, if somebody really was engulfed in flames today in real life, they wouldn't be able to carry on a normal conversation with you because they would be screaming too much (in pain) to pay you any kind of mind at all.

In fact, it is kind of odd that there is no mention that the rich-man is not even screaming at all. Yet, that is how hell is depicted by many today when Scriptures do not say such a thing.


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Would God have indignation against people for ever if those
people did not exist forever?

Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and SOUL in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. We are told to fear the one who can DESTROY the SOUL in the Lake of Fire. So we can conclude that souls will in fact be destroyed in the Lake of Fire and they will not be left in the Lake of Fire to exist for all eternity.

Also, the word forever and it's related words does not always mean "forever" in the Bible, too. How so?

Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.
For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).​

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).​

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means in relation to the Greek word "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is translated in the English as "hell").

To put it to you another way, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal”; And again, as mentioned above: in Philemon 1:15 it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php


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aiki

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Thus we have seen, so far, that Jesus Christ, Peter, and the book of Revelation teach the same thing. Real fire is coming at the end of this world. It will not only become the place where the lost are punished, but will serve a dual function of purifying our polluted sky and ground from every vestige of impurity.

This is something you're reading into the passage entirely. No where does Scripture even hint that the Lake of Fire has any role to play in the fiery consumption of the present heavens and Earth. This is a connection formed only in your imagination.

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus Christ warned that unsaved sinners will enter “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Have you asked yourself why the fire is everlasting?

Now think about it. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still destroyed? Yes. But are they burning now? Obviously not. Then what does “eternal fire” mean? By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it means that the fire came from God and that the punishment lasts forever, not the flames.

Hold your horses! Here's the passage from Jude on which you're erecting your theory:

Jude 1:7-8
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

I included verse 8 because it has an important clarifying effect on how we understand verse 7. When verse 7 refers to "cities" is it speaking primarily or solely of the physical building and boundaries of these cities? No. In fact, it is referring very specifically to the people of these places. How do we know this? Because cities of brick and mortar, wood and earth, do not suffer and are utterly immune to vengeance. Obviously, then, it is the people of these cities that are in view in Jude 7, not the physical structures of the places called Sodom and Gomorrah. And their comparison to the people Jude describes in verse 8 confirms this reading.

In light of this fact, your annihilationist theory ceases to gain impetus from Jude 7. The physical buildings of these wicked cities are burned to ash (though, not truly annihilated) but the residents of these cities, Jude tells us, continue to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41, italics added). Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 7, one which destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later our Lord clarified, “And these [the lost] shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). Thus the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like the Sodomites.

You have either not recognized or are ignoring the parallelism in Matthew 25:46. The parallelism is between the everlasting punishment of the unrepentant wicked and the eternal life of the righteous. The punishment of the wicked (which necessarily requires the consciousness of the wicked) is just as eternal, just as everlasting, as the reward of life of the righteous. If we limit the everlasting punishment of the wicked (which must be experienced eternally, if it is to be truly everlasting punishment), we do violence to the parallel and render it and the verse meaningless. So, on two counts your thinking above fails. First, Jude 7 does not, as I explained, teach the annihilation of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and therefore, second, it cannot be made to support your erroneous idea that Jesus meant annihilation when speaking of the punishment of the wicked in Matthew 25:46.

Paul also wrote about “everlasting” consequences overwhelming unsaved sinners. Paul warned that when Jesus Christ returns He will come “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9, italics added). Here “everlasting” is combined with “destruction,” which means the lost are destroyed forever, just like the Gomorrahites.

But, again, this is what you're reading into the passage rather than drawing out of it. If one is annihilated, all possible punishment ceases at that time. One cannot be punished when one no longer exists. However enduring the duration of the effect of the punishment might be, the punishment itself is over for the wicked when their annihilation occurs. It makes no sense, then, for Paul to write of the wicked being punished by "everlasting destruction" when their punishment only lasts as long as it takes to be annihilated.

In addition to Jesus Christ, Jude, and Paul, John the Baptist also warned about “unquenchable fire” engulfing the unredeemed. On the surface, one might assume John was referring to ceaselessly burning flames. But he wasn’t. Calling the saved “wheat” and the lost “chaff,” the wilderness prophet announced that God’s Messiah would “thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added). Thus “unquenchable fire” isn’t fire that burns forever, but fire that can’t be snuffed out by man. It burns up the chaff until there is nothing left.

What you've written here blatantly ignores the plain meaning of "unquenchable." It is not assumption to think that "unquenchable fire" was intended by the apostle John to be understood to mean "ceaselesly burning" or "a fire that cannot be snuffed out." These are the normal, straightforward meanings of the phrase! What is an assumption is your unfounded idea that he meant "fire that can't be snuffed out by man." Your "by man" addition is totally unwarranted. The unquenchable fire John writes of he describes in greater detail in his Revelation:

Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


Clearly, the "unquenchable fire" does not consume utterly as you are eager to contend.

Opposite of life is death---life is consciousness, awareness, existence. Death is lack of consciousness, lack of awareness, lack of existence. Eternal life is eternal consciousness, eternal existence, eternal awareness. Eternal death is eternal unconsciousness, eternal nonexistence.

I absolutely disagree - and so does the Bible - with this definition of death that you offer here. The dead are clearly depicted as conscious in the hereafter throughout the Bible.

Here's one example:

Matthew 17:1-3
1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


If death is, as you say, the end of consciousness, how on earth are Moses and Elijah chatting with Jesus on the mountain? They are both long dead! Yet, here they are appearing before Peter, James and John.

And what about this passage?:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


How can these martyred saints be in heaven pleading with God for justice if they have ceased to be conscious of anything? How is that they can speak? How is it that they can wear white robes? It seems your ideas about the afterlife need some adjustment.

Selah.
 
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Hillsage

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Regardless whether or not it is figurative or literal, it basically means the same thing. I mean, if it's figurative, then what's it figurative of? Obviously fire.
Of course it's 'figurative' of fire. So what does GOD figuratively do with fire? He makes things pure....and guess what the Greek word for fire is? PUR....a word which etymologically is figurative enough for me to figure out.

So then it resembles or is very close to fire, regardless. Same thing holds true for the lake of fire and brimstone.
And my opinion is 'figuratively' our "GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE" and our GOD is the 'figurative' and purgative "LAKE of FIRE" and in the end he will 'literally' "BE ALL IN ALL" as his judgments are in the earth teaching righteousness to all.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


You think He'll do it with eternal torture, but I think he'll do it with figurative 'saving fire' (1Co 3:15).

But I also figure you're still entitled to your opposing opinion. And in the end, that's all we all have really....I mean literally. :)

EDIT P.S. BTW you really never answered MY QUESTION; How would you answer your question? Do you think 'baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire' is literal fire?

Flesh your answer out for me.
 
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If the flame was just used as a division=being the gulf that
separated the righteous from the wicked, why did he (the rich
man) want his five brothers to be warned of it? The rich man in the story was said to have called it "a place of torment".

Luke 16:25 - has "thou art tormented"

Have you ever been in front of a bonfire whereby you felt really uncomfortable or in slight pain because of it's intense heat? Would you not be tormented by such heat if it would not burn you and yet it still felt very uncomfortable to you by the intense heat of it?


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aiki

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If a man today was engulfed in a roaring campfire, he wouldn't be asking for a little water to help his situation, he would be asking for buckets or large barrels of water to help him. A little bit of water on the tip of someone's finger would dry out before even reaching someone engulfed in a roaring campfire.

But you're assuming the fire of Hell is just like that of a campfire. Why should it be? It is unquenchable so why couldn't it differ from normal fire in other ways, too? Also, the man in Hell in the parable knew where he was and why. He was being punished and he knew it. Asking for any water at all, then, was like a convicted murderer at his hanging asking for a softer rope. The Rich Man didn't deserve even the smallest kindness, so asking for a big one would have been beyond any consideration. Just a drop was far more than he knew he should be given.

But besides all that, sane or not, if somebody really was engulfed in flames today in real life, they wouldn't be able to carry on a normal conversation with you because they would be screaming too much (in pain) to pay you any kind of mind at all.

It seems, then, that there are differences between the fire we know and the fires of Hell. Mind you, the parable doesn't say that the Rich Man wasn't wailing and gnashing his teeth before and after his brief words with Abraham. We only know what he did do, not what he didn't.

In fact, it is kind of odd that there is no mention that the rich-man is not even screaming at all. Yet, that is how hell is depicted by many today when Scriptures do not say such a thing.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Selah.
 
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Would you post verses as to the wicked can sleep while they are in hell?

Well, while this is not speaking about the wicked, this is an example of how one can sleep when they are dead.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead

Side Note:

Please take note that I do also believe that individuals can be conscious in hell, too.


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But you're assuming the fire of Hell is just like that of a campfire. Why should it be? It is unquenchable so why couldn't it differ from normal fire in other ways, too? Also, the man in Hell in the parable knew where he was and why. He was being punished and he knew it. Asking for any water at all, then, was like a convicted murderer at his hanging asking for a softer rope. The Rich Man didn't deserve even the smallest kindness, so asking for a big one would have been beyond any consideration. Just a drop was far more than he knew he should be given.

But you are making assumptions about the fire, too.
However, it makes more sense that the fire would behave like normal fire in the after-life because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world world examples (i.e. parables).
For Jesus accepted an extended parable or real world example (that was based upon Jesus's parable) from the Canaanite woman.

aiki said:
It seems, then, that there are differences between the fire we know and the fires of Hell. Mind you, the parable doesn't say that the Rich Man wasn't wailing and gnashing his teeth before and after his brief words with Abraham. We only know what he did do, not what he didn't.

We need verses showing us that the fire is not like the fire here. Yes, the fire is said to be unquenchable, but even forest fires can appear this way, as well. It doesn't mean they will last forever. Yes, the Scriptures say there is an "everlasting fire" but this is merely another word for saying the fire is unquenchable during the time of it's intended purpose.

aiki said:
Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Selah.

Well, this is describing the final end for the wicked whereby they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is not talking about hell here.


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I too have wondered why he just wanted to cool his tongue, but maybe that was so he could talk for a bit easier. After this part as to he is being tormented and such has been discussed, then we find the word "Beside" "Beside all this..." This tells me
they are not referring to the great gulf as being the fire that is tormenting the rich man.

That is a huge assumption with the word "besides." It does not necessarily mean that.

Anyways, the Scriptures allude to the fact that hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell [i.e. the Lake of Fire], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island [i.e. hell], and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of hell.


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mark kennedy

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Totally disagree - it does not work at all in the majority of the proof texts. Please prove that it does.
I'll get to that, I just wanted to explore the alternative reading, not that interested in defending it. Most of the text is ambiquise enough, generally referring to the fires of perdition with the suffering of the children of perdition being a consequence. It's not a contest for me, what I'm interested in is learning a little more about the doctrine involved and expanding my understanding of how sheol in the Old Testament dovetails into the further revelations of Christ. I'll sum up what I've been able to determine when I get the chance. a lot of interesting things resulted from the thread but I'm close to making up my mind. For a doctrinal discussion with this kind of weight it's surprising that it happened this fast given how much is involved.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Isaiah 34 is future prophecy. the day of the Lord
v 8
"For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance...for the controversy
of Zion."
v 4 - shows it is going to require the 6th seal
"And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
shall be rolled together as a scroll..."
V1

"Come near ye nations...ye people...let all the earth hear..."

all nations
all their armies
/not people out of hell came back
Edom seems to be the future lake of fire area.

Malachi chapter 1
"...Edom...shall call them, The border of wickedness, and The
people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."

But Peter talks about how this world will be purified by fire.
And then there will be the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
Will this Lake of Fire be like a public show for believers to visit?
Sure doesn't sound nice if you ask me.


...
 
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mmksparbud

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This is something you're reading into the passage entirely. No where does Scripture even hint that the Lake of Fire has any role to play in the fiery consumption of the present heavens and Earth. This is a connection formed only in your imagination.


“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10).

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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mmksparbud

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In light of this fact, your annihilationist theory ceases to gain impetus from Jude 7. The physical buildings of these wicked cities are burned to ash (though, not truly annihilated) but the residents of these cities, Jude tells us, continue to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.


Last time I looked----nobody was there.


“The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered in burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:40 -42,


No until the end of the world.
 
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Butch5

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Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 146:2-4 are both talking from the perspective of one's physical body alone (And it is not addressing their soul and spirit that continues on in the realm of the dead).

Where do those Psalms say that? They don't. They prove that what you're claiming cannot be true. Why not believe the Scriptures rather than a doctrine?

As for Jesus's words in Luke 24:36-39:
Jesus was referring to something that was spirit only because they thought he was a ghost. Jesus was not referring to how humans do not have a spirit inside of them. Mary said, "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47); Paul says, "...I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Jesus' statement makes it crystal clear that a spirit does not have flesh and bone. There is a spirit in man, it's God's breath or spirit of life. The point is that man isn't a spirit.

As for death always meaning death:
The Bible refers to the wicked as being dead spiritually. For Jesus said, let the dead bury their own dead (Luke 9:60). Meaning, let the wicked unbelievers bury their own dead and come follow me. Also, 1 Timothy 5:6 talks about how those widows who live in pleasure are dead even while they are alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said that the prodigal son was dead and is alive again two times when his son returned home (Luke 15:11-32). Meaning, his son was dead spiritually to him when he went prodigal. But this does not mean the son was not alive physically, though.

There isn't a passage of Scripture in the Bible that says people are spiritually dead. That is a teaching from men. The passages you quoted here say noting about the spirit. That you said, "meaning" shows us that you are inferring something from the text that is not stated.

All of these are inferences. You've still not established a teaching from the Scriptures that man can live apart from the body.
 
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razzelflabben

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That is punishment on earth, not under the earth- or later
in the lake of fire.
The body dies, but the soul lives on. So, when the second death happens to some people-the wicked -why wouldn't their
soul live on?
yep...just like I said...
 
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