The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Achilles6129]

I guess I didn't double post.
That is a good question. The Greek definition of the word is simply 'fire, figuratively or literally'. So I guess one must fall to 'context determines definition' for their decision. As for me I would vote 'figurative' in areas where others will vote 'literal'.

How would you answer your question? Do you think 'baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire' is literal fire?

Regardless whether or not it is figurative or literal, it basically means the same thing. I mean, if it's figurative, then what's it figurative of? Obviously fire. So then it resembles or is very close to fire, regardless. Same thing holds true for the lake of fire and brimstone.

 

[Achilles6129]

The eternity of the fire, whether literal or figurative is beyond a biblical basis.

Mark, how can the eternity of the fire be beyond a Biblical basis when the Bible specifically says it's eternal?

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NASB)

 

[Achilles6129]

I would disagree, they have a strong argument with perhaps a few fatal flaws. I'm down one maybe two proof texts, for such an obscure minority view that's impressive. I'm still not convinced the subject matter has been exhausted but one thing is clear to me, both sides deserve due consideration. I've always approach doctrine in this way and never found one that didn't ultimately have a simple but hard to determine solution.

1) I don't find their argument to be strong at all. As a matter of fact I think it's quite weak (actually, disproven).

2) It's not an obscure minority view, at least in this day and age.

3) Also, if you want to start a debate on whether or not the punishment is eternal on this thread we can.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[mmksparbud]

I'll try again, I guess.

“The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered in burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:40 -42, italics added).


“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:7).

2 Peter 3:7, we discover:

• A real fire is coming.
• It will burn “the heavens” – the polluted atmosphere we breathe.
• It will burn “the earth” – the ground we walk on.
• These flames will blaze on “the day of judgment.”
• “Ungodly men” will end up in this fire.

Three verses later, Peter elaborated further,

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10).

This passage is crystal clear: At some point in the future the sky above and the earth beneath will literally catch fire and “melt with fervent heat.” So if you’ve been taught that the sum total of hell-fire is some smoky place beneath the ground, think again. The Bible says our entire sin-polluted planet is destined for the flames. Peter concluded with this comforting assurance:

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness dwells.” (2 Peter 3:1)

The earth and heavens will melt away--everything will be burnt up, and everything will be made new


The book of Revelation teaches the same message about a future Judgment Day and cleansing fire, followed by a new heaven and earth. After every lost soul is “judged… according to their works” (Revelation 20:13), then,

“Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away… And he that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” (Revelation 20:15; 21:1, 5).

Here’s the inspired sequence:

• Judgment Day
• The Lake of Fire
• A New Heaven and Earth

Thus we have seen, so far, that Jesus Christ, Peter, and the book of Revelation teach the same thing. Real fire is coming at the end of this world. It will not only become the place where the lost are punished, but will serve a dual function of purifying our polluted sky and ground from every vestige of impurity. Then God will make a new heaven and earth to become the eternal home of His saved, blood-bought children.

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus Christ warned that unsaved sinners will enter “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Yet Jesus Christ also declared, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16,
“The devil,” along with “the beast” will “be tormented day and night forever” in the lake of fire (see Revelation 20:10).
Yet Ezekiel chapter 28 reveals a different picture. Initially discussing the ancient “king of Tyre” (Ezekiel 28:12), God’s prophet then looks behind the scenes and identifies Lucifer himself, “the anointed cherub” (verse 14), who inhabited “Eden, the garden of God” (verse 13), and who was originally “perfect in [his] ways from the day [he] was created,” until “iniquity was found in [him]” (verse 15). Moving forward to this fallen angel’s final fate, God declares, “I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you… You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever” (verses 18 and 19, italics added).
“‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly, will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” says the Lord of hosts, “That it will leave them neither root nor branch’” … ‘[And] you shall trample down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the souls of your feet on the day that I do this, says the Lord of hosts’” (Malachi 4:1, 3).
“As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” (Psalms 68:2, italics added).

“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more.” (Psalms 37:10, italics added).

“The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” (Psalms 37:20, italics added).

“But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” (Psalms 37:38, italics added).

John the Baptist proclaimed about the Messiah,

“He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added).

(unquenchable fire--a fire that can not be out till it consumes everything)

Paul wrote about those who “obey not the gospel”,
“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction…” (2 Thessalonians 1:9, italics added).

Paul also declared,

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23, italics added).
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

Notice carefully: it was the physical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that “suffered the vengeance of eternal fire,” not just the people. In addition, their punishment is “set forth as an example” of what will happen to the unsaved. In 2 Peter, we find an almost identical verse, yet Peter inserts one tiny, significant detail. Look closely:

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto all those that after should live ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:6, italics added).

What was the net result of that “eternal fire” which fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah ? Those cities became ashes. But that’s not all. Describing “the punishment of the sin of Sodom,” Jeremiah said that those evil cities were “overthrown as in a moment” (Lamentations 4:6, italics added). Now put the pieces together. By comparing Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 with Lamentations 4:6, we discover plainly that the “the vengeance of eternal fire” was so incredibly hot that it reduced Sodom and Gomorrah “into ashes” in “a moment” of time. Now think about it. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still destroyed? Yes. But are they burning now? Obviously not. Then what does “eternal fire” mean? By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it means that the fire came from God and that the punishment lasts forever, not the flames. And again, both Jude and Peter called this punishment “an example” of what will happen to all the lost.
“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41, italics added). Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 7, one which destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later our Lord clarified, “And these [the lost] shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). Thus the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like the Sodomites.

Paul also wrote about “everlasting” consequences overwhelming unsaved sinners. Paul warned that when Jesus Christ returns He will come “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9, italics added). Here “everlasting” is combined with “destruction,” which means the lost are destroyed forever, just like the Gomorrahites.

In addition to Jesus Christ, Jude, and Paul, John the Baptist also warned about “unquenchable fire” engulfing the unredeemed. On the surface, one might assume John was referring to ceaselessly burning flames. But he wasn’t. Calling the saved “wheat” and the lost “chaff,” the wilderness prophet announced that God’s Messiah would “thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added). Thus “unquenchable fire” isn’t fire that burns forever, but fire that can’t be snuffed out by man. It burns up the chaff until there is nothing left.
Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:41, 46), John the Baptist (Matthew 3:12), Paul (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9) and Jude (verse 7) all predicted that “eternal fire,” “everlasting fire,” and “unquenchable fire,” will eventually “burn up” all unsaved sinners to their “everlasting destruction,” just like Sodom and Gomorrah became “ashes” in “a moment.” And Sodom ’s holy judgment is “set forth as an example” (Jude 7) to us today.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Opposite of life is death---life is consciousness, awareness, existence. Death is lack of consciousness, lack of awareness, lack of existence. Eternal life is eternal consciousness, eternal existence, eternal awareness. Eternal death is eternal unconsciousness, eternal nonexistence.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Achilles6129]

I'll try again, I guess.

You desperately need to deal with passages like Rev. 14:10-11 and 20:10. And those aren't the only passages that you need to deal with, but those would be a start.

Thus we have seen, so far, that Jesus Christ, Peter, and the book of Revelation teach the same thing. Real fire is coming at the end of this world. It will not only become the place where the lost are punished, but will serve a dual function of purifying our polluted sky and ground from every vestige of impurity.

The passages that you quoted didn't say that at all. Certainly fire can be used to punish the lost; it can also be used as Peter said, to destroy this world. There can certainly be more than one fire. Why would you think that the fire is one and the same?

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus Christ warned that unsaved sinners will enter “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Yep, a great verse teaching eternal torture. I didn't see you deal with it at all.

“The devil,” along with “the beast” will “be tormented day and night forever” in the lake of fire (see Revelation 20:10).
Yet Ezekiel chapter 28 reveals a different picture. Initially discussing the ancient “king of Tyre” (Ezekiel 28:12), God’s prophet then looks behind the scenes and identifies Lucifer himself, “the anointed cherub” (verse 14), who inhabited “Eden, the garden of God” (verse 13), and who was originally “perfect in [his] ways from the day [he] was created,” until “iniquity was found in [him]” (verse 15). Moving forward to this fallen angel’s final fate, God declares, “I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you… You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever” (verses 18 and 19, italics added).

The devil's final fate is shown in Rev. 20:10, and it is eternal torture. Why can't the "no more forever" refer to his state here on planet earth? How are you rejecting Rev. 20:10 in favor of some passage in Ezekiel talking about Satan's earthly doings?

“‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly, will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” says the Lord of hosts, “That it will leave them neither root nor branch’” … ‘[And] you shall trample down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the souls of your feet on the day that I do this, says the Lord of hosts’” (Malachi 4:1, 3).
“As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” (Psalms 68:2, italics added).

“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more.” (Psalms 37:10, italics added).

“The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” (Psalms 37:20, italics added).

“But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” (Psalms 37:38, italics added).

Why can't you understand that these passages are referring to their earthly fate?

John the Baptist proclaimed about the Messiah,

“He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12, italics added).

(unquenchable fire--a fire that can not be out till it consumes everything)

That's your definition of unquenchable fire. Jesus Christ gives another definition, and it sounds very much like people are existing in unquenchable fire:

"42 “Whoever causes one of these [z]little ones who believe to stumble, it [aa]would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he [ab]had been cast into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [ac]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [[ad]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [ae]hell, 46 [[af]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into [ag]hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mk. 9:42-48 (NASB)

If the unquenchable fire just annihilates you, then why is Christ saying that it would be better for you to be lame, blind in one eye, etc., than to go there? Also, why does Christ say that "their worm does not die" if they are eventually annihilated?

Paul wrote about those who “obey not the gospel”,
“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction…” (2 Thessalonians 1:9, italics added).

Again, destruction is loss of well-being, not annihilation. Take a look at the Greek word used (it's not apollumi, though it's related):

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3639&t=NASB

Here are some other passages where the same word is used:

"I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction G3639 of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord [fn]Jesus." 1 Cor. 5:5 (NASB)

"While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then [fn]destruction G3639 [fn]will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape." 1 Th. 5:3 (NASB)

"But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin G3639 and destruction." 1 Tim. 6:9 (NASB)

"By faith he [fn]kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed G3639 the firstborn would not touch them." Heb. 11:28 (NASB)

The word clearly does not mean "annihilation."

Paul also declared,

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23, italics added).
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

Notice carefully: it was the physical cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that “suffered the vengeance of eternal fire,” not just the people. In addition, their punishment is “set forth as an example” of what will happen to the unsaved. In 2 Peter, we find an almost identical verse, yet Peter inserts one tiny, significant detail. Look closely:

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto all those that after should live ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:6, italics added).

What was the net result of that “eternal fire” which fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah ? Those cities became ashes. But that’s not all. Describing “the punishment of the sin of Sodom,” Jeremiah said that those evil cities were “overthrown as in a moment” (Lamentations 4:6, italics added). Now put the pieces together. By comparing Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 with Lamentations 4:6, we discover plainly that the “the vengeance of eternal fire” was so incredibly hot that it reduced Sodom and Gomorrah “into ashes” in “a moment” of time. Now think about it. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still destroyed? Yes. But are they burning now? Obviously not. Then what does “eternal fire” mean?

Easy. It means that God destroyed Sodom/Gomorrah with his eternal fire. Next, you contradict yourself:

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it means that the fire came from God and that the punishment lasts forever, not the flames.

OK...so if the punishment lasts forever, then why do you think that they're annihilated?

And again, both Jude and Peter called this punishment “an example” of what will happen to all the lost.
“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41, italics added). Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 7, one which destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later our Lord clarified, “And these [the lost] shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). Thus the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like the Sodomites.

This is a total contradiction.

You clearly have a lot to deal with if you wish to advance annihilation as a plausible hypothesis.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[mark kennedy]

1) I don't find their argument to be strong at all. As a matter of fact I think it's quite weak (actually, disproven).

2) It's not an obscure minority view, at least in this day and age.

3) Also, if you want to start a debate on whether or not the punishment is eternal on this thread we can.

Its a semantical point based on a couple of proof texts. What I got from the discussion was the connection of sheol and hell. Anniliation vs eternal torment is actually an alternate reading that works in the majority of the proof texts.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Der Alte]

For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out.

I too have wondered why he just wanted to cool his tongue, but maybe that was so he could talk for a bit easier. After this part as to he is being tormented and such has been discussed, then we find the word "Beside" "Beside all this..." This tells me
they are not referring to the great gulf as being the fire that is tormenting the rich man.

If we understand that the rich man was actually being tormented in flames would we really expect rational, coherent thought from him? Anything he said would be tinged with fear, anxiety, panic etc. so an otherwise irrational comment like "send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame" would not be unusual.

 

[Rodan6]

My friend this argument is based upon our own human understanding of God. We so often assign to God our own ideas of who he is. God is love. What that means to us in a human sense is that hell cannot be torment because that is not loving. But we dismiss the fact that God is just and his judgments are righteous.
Remember His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. What we project upon God is not necessarily God.

For example, we have NO CLUE as to what it means to God to reject him and the sacrifice that Christ made for us. God intimately knows the depth of the wickedness to,reject the great salvation. We don't get it. But to God the evil and wickedness and horror of rejecting the sacrifice of his son is worthy of torment. To say otherwise it makes light of the great sacrifice of Christ. The same goes for his love for us. We don't fully grasp the depth of his love because we don't grasp the depth of the sacrifice. What does it mean for Jesus to bear the weight of the sin of the entire world upon his shoulders. Do we even have the smallest understanding of that? I don't know how we could. We don't even do a good job of recognising and carrying our own guilt. But Jesus bore it all. The rejection of that is beyond our understanding.

But God understands it perfectly and in his perfect understanding lies his perfect judgements. Righteous and true. We deserve eternal punishment in the fires of hell. Tormented day and night.

It is a purely human trait to desire revenge. Anger, hatred, jealousy are all examples of human failings. These human failings are not "logical" but represent important weaknesses--traits of our evolving material existence. In primitive times, such traits surely contributed to the survival of our kind. As mankind continues to advance, both materially and spiritually, it is God's will that will learn to control these base animalistic impulses. God represents the template for the perfection of logic. While our human condition limits our ability to know God, we can observe from His creations a hint of the amazing logic to His material universe. This perfection of logic is intertwined with His perfect and boundless love--thus, God's love is a "logical love".

Throughout time, humans have attributed their own human failings to God. It is a sin to attribute such traits to God. Our ancient ancestors were forgiven for these transgressions because they reflected the limitations of the age in which they lived. But we have the powerful revelation of the Father through the Son. The Son came to reveal the great truth of a loving Father in Heaven and a brotherhood of man. In the two thousand years since His revelation, mankind has made many great strides. We can see that we are not yet where we should be, but we are slowly letting go of our prejudices. (Consider that only a short time ago, women could not vote and a black man had to sit in the back of a bus). In the light of our modern age, much has been given to us and much much more is expected of us.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/