The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Hillsage]

Explain your hermeneutical principles whereby you decide when fire should be interpreted figuratively or literally.

I guess I didn't double post.
That is a good question. The Greek definition of the word is simply 'fire, figuratively or literally'. So I guess one must fall to 'context determines definition' for their decision. As for me I would vote 'figurative' in areas where others will vote 'literal'.

How would you answer your question? Do you think 'baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire' is literal fire?

 

[Der Alte]

As I said the Bible has homonyms within it. I have given you a few examples that this is the case.
Also, you have not addressed the contradiction in your belief according to what the Scriptures say.
Jesus was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.
Jesus told Mary he had yet to ascend to the Father.
So Jesus could not have been in Heaven during the time He was in the grave for three days and three nights.
So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus was in Abraham's bosom and the word "paradise" is a homonym (just like all the other homonyms used in Scripture).
...

The contradiction is in your mind. You have clearly stated where scripture says Jesus was during the three days. Matthew 12:40 Your assumptions/presuppositions about homonyms are not scripture. I guess Jesus was wrong when He said paradise is where God's throne and the river of life are.

 

[Der Alte]

While God can do things, these new things would of course be revealed within His Word.
Even the new things Christ did within His ministry was foretold within OT Scripture.
But now the Scriptures is a closed book. There is no new Scriptures we are seeking or new prophecies or messages to look for to add to God's Word (After the book or scroll known as "Revelation"). The Bible is our message or Word from God. It's all we need. It is sufficient for the Christian life. Venturing outside of His Word to build our faith is dangerous and it is not consistent with His Word. ...

I have not ventured outside scripture. And unlike you I have not invented any homonyms to make scripture support various assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hell in the Bible has had several meanings: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus. I would include the Lake of Fire under the term Hell, too. It is the final, eternal Hell in which the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his demons are tormented for ever and ever. I might not be entirely precise in calling the Lake of Fire, Hell, but I think the average believer thinks of Hell as the Lake of Fire. If it helps, I can use "Lake of Fire" instead of Hell.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously experienced is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a tree. Annihilation entails the extinguishing of consciousness so annihilation cannot be in view in those places where the Bible speaks of eternal punishment. Consider the following quotation:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

'What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.'"

- Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Selah.

I'm well aware of the doctrine of Hell along with the proof texts. I'm simply interested in pursuing annialation as far as it can go. The eternity of the fire, whether literal or figurative is beyond a biblical basis. With the exception of a few key verses annialation seems an intriguing, if ultimately indefensible, alternative reading. BTW loved the quote.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm well aware of the doctrine of Hell along with the proof texts. I'm simply interested in pursuing annialation as far as it can go. The eternity of the fire, whether literal or figurative is beyond a biblical basis. With the exception of a few key verses annialation seems an intriguing, if ultimately indefensible, alternative reading. BTW loved the quote.

as far as this discussion so far, there is no way to reconcile the passages of eternity of fire with annihilation theology. In fact, I keep begging people to reconcile them as well as the torture chamber version and the no hell versions and so far no one even attempts to do anything but play dueling scripture which is pretty much so meaningless to knowing the true heart of God.

 

[razzelflabben]

For all of those that are trying to rely on their own personal logic to justify their position, let me remind you of Proverbs 3:5...you see, even scripture tells us to rely on the word of God for our understanding rather than our own intellect and wisdom.....would be nice if some of you all understood this concept and discussed the topic accordingly.

 

[mark kennedy]

as far as this discussion so far, there is no way to reconcile the passages of eternity of fire with annihilation theology. In fact, I keep begging people to reconcile them as well as the torture chamber version and the no hell versions and so far no one even attempts to do anything but play dueling scripture which is pretty much so meaningless to knowing the true heart of God.

I would disagree, they have a strong argument with perhaps a few fatal flaws. I'm down one maybe two proof texts, for such an obscure minority view that's impressive. I'm still not convinced the subject matter has been exhausted but one thing is clear to me, both sides deserve due consideration. I've always approach doctrine in this way and never found one that didn't ultimately have a simple but hard to determine solution.

 

[razzelflabben]

I would disagree, they have a strong argument with perhaps a few fatal flaws. I'm down one maybe two proof texts, for such an obscure minority view that's impressive. I'm still not convinced the subject matter has been exhausted but one thing is clear to me, both sides deserve due consideration. I've always approach doctrine in this way and never found one that didn't ultimately have a simple but hard to determine solution.

if there are fatal flaws, how is it a strong argument? Also, how are they reconciling both sides of the issue?

My perspective is very simple, if God is God, then nothing He tells us in scripture will have a flaw in it. Period, if it does, then God is a liar and that is something that at this stage of my walk with God I do not believe to be true. IOW's God is either a liar or there is a way to reconcile both sides of the issue with all the scriptures we have on the topic. Repeatedly I have asked how to reconcile the passages and so far only eternal hell fire side is able to do that using common literary rules, context, translation issues, totality of scripture, all things that are vital to a study that purposes to rightly divide the word of God.

Now, that being said, I get why people would believe X or Y or Z...I mean, some of the versions "feel" good, they "feel" right...but feelings have very little to do with a proper interpretation of scripture. God is in fact God and the bible is His Love letter to us. If God is unable to tell us what He wants us to know in the consistency of scripture, He isn't much of a God is He? I have been in Love with God for almost 50 years now. From day one I have loved His word and even as a child just learning to read would read the word of God every single night and back then, all I had was the KJV. As my life progressed, I have come to the point in which I study the word of God an average of 40-48 hours a week sometimes more. It is common for me to study 700+ passages a week finding truth every step of the way. I Love the word of God. That being said, I have yet to find a single contradiction that is not easily dismissed with the above (context, literary rules, etc) This is no different. There is a lot about hell that we don't know, that is by God's design. There is a lot we do know, also by God's design. What we can be sure of is that God also by design wants us to study His word and discover the things that are hidden from us by the world view that we carry around in this flesh. when we do that, when we set aside our fleshly view and look only at what God wants to tell us, it challenges us and grows us in ways we couldn't have imagined. Thus, I ask, if there is a fatal flaw, why do we even consider it to be the intent of God, why instead do we not allow the LIVING and TRUE God to challenge us and grow us as He desires to do?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Der Alte]

Hell in the Bible has had several meanings: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus. I would include the Lake of Fire under the term Hell, too. It is the final, eternal Hell in which the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his demons are tormented for ever and ever. I might not be entirely precise in calling the Lake of Fire, Hell, but I think the average believer thinks of Hell as the Lake of Fire. If it helps, I can use "Lake of Fire" instead of Hell.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously experienced is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a tree. Annihilation entails the extinguishing of consciousness so annihilation cannot be in view in those places where the Bible speaks of eternal punishment. Consider the following quotation:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

'What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.'"

- Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Selah.

Some of the ECF also believed "A punishment that is not felt is not punishment...

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology
Chap LII And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.

Justin Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew
Chap IV “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’​

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Commander]

Hebrews 12:29, puts a whole new spin on it, doesn't it? Have a blessed day.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[mark kennedy]

if there are fatal flaws, how is it a strong argument? Also, how are they reconciling both sides of the issue?

Maybe fatal flaws due to a couple of proof texts. I don't think their reconciled just not that far removed.

My perspective is very simple, if God is God, then nothing He tells us in scripture will have a flaw in it. Period, if it does, then God is a liar and that is something that at this stage of my walk with God I do not believe to be true. IOW's God is either a liar or there is a way to reconcile both sides of the issue with all the scriptures we have on the topic. Repeatedly I have asked how to reconcile the passages and so far only eternal hell fire side is able to do that using common literary rules, context, translation issues, totality of scripture, all things that are vital to a study that purposes to rightly divide the word of God.

Which begs the question of what is actually being said and what is meant.

Now, that being said, I get why people would believe X or Y or Z...I mean, some of the versions "feel" good, they "feel" right...but feelings have very little to do with a proper interpretation of scripture. God is in fact God and the bible is His Love letter to us. If God is unable to tell us what He wants us to know in the consistency of scripture, He isn't much of a God is He? I have been in Love with God for almost 50 years now. From day one I have loved His word and even as a child just learning to read would read the word of God every single night and back then, all I had was the KJV. As my life progressed, I have come to the point in which I study the word of God an average of 40-48 hours a week sometimes more. It is common for me to study 700+ passages a week finding truth every step of the way. I Love the word of God. That being said, I have yet to find a single contradiction that is not easily dismissed with the above (context, literary rules, etc) This is no different. There is a lot about hell that we don't know, that is by God's design. There is a lot we do know, also by God's design. What we can be sure of is that God also by design wants us to study His word and discover the things that are hidden from us by the world view that we carry around in this flesh. when we do that, when we set aside our fleshly view and look only at what God wants to tell us, it challenges us and grows us in ways we couldn't have imagined. Thus, I ask, if there is a fatal flaw, why do we even consider it to be the intent of God, why instead do we not allow the LIVING and TRUE God to challenge us and grow us as He desires to do?

It nice that you are sharing so much from you personal journey but this for me is a process. The creation took me over five years to finally nail down, going into it theistic evolution was an option. My first couple of years I struggled with the Incarnation. There's been baptisms, tongues, infallibility, justification by faith and I guarantee I could show you expositions you have never seen or could ever refute. Its a process where ingredients are measured, and prepared. I'm getting ready to put it in the oven now, I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm getting close to drawing some conclusions.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Der Alte]

Or perhaps they realise that:
* to suffer eternally needs eternal life
* you only get eternal life in Christ
* those in Christ do not go to into the fire
* therefore the suffering in "Hell" is not eternal.

Did God forgive the angels that fell"? no
Murder doesn't seem to be what places one in "greater damnation".
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
/being a hypocrite
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
This was before Jesus Christ was murdered/died for our sins.

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.