The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[mmksparbud]

If you are going to take Christ's words in Revelation 21:5 totally literally, then "all" must necessarily include God Himself. In what way will he be "made new" do you think? If you're going to exclude God from Christ's words, then you aren't taking his words literally and you must then justify why you are reading them that way when it comes to Hell.

'
Well just exactly what do you think about God is there that needs to be made new?? It says He makes all things new, everything on this world (He is not of this world, nor is Jesus, nor are the saved anymore for have all been changed at the resurrection) The New Jerusalem is already made new and comes down from God. The only thing that remains to be made new is this world and everything in it.

 

[Butch5]

Even the souls of animals will continue to live on after they die.
In fact, they eagerly await the manifestation (resurrection) of the sons of God.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." (Romans 8:19).


...

That's the creation. However, as I said, one must bring that idea to the Scriptures. Nothing in the Scriptures teaches that the dead are alive. That's why they're called the dead. The Bible is really quite clear on this issue, however, some just don't want to believe it. God told Adam that he was dust. He didn't say part of you is dust and part of you is spirit. He to Adam, 'thou art dust'. David said that the dead know nothing. He said to God, 'in death there is no remembrance of you'

5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:5 NKJ)

Now, how can someone who dies go and be with the Lord when David, who was a prophet, said there is no remembrance of God in death?

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)

Notice in this passage David emphasizes that he will praise the Lord while he is alive. He knows he can't do it after he dies. Notice also that he says the breath or spirit of life goes forth, he returns to the earth and that very day his thoughts perish. Now, how can someone be conscious after death when his thoughts have perished? Notice when the breath or spirit of God leaves the man he returns to the dust. He doesn't go on to some other place as a conscious being.

For some reason people don't seem to want to believe this. Too many fall for the first lie. The first lie was told by Satan, 'you shall not surely die.' This is what many Christians today believe, they don't die. Instead the body dies but they live on in some disembodied state. However, this idea is nowhere taught in the Scriptures. Many Christians say that man is a spiritual being that lives in a flesh body and casts of the body at death. However, again this is not taught in Scripture. Actually, it's refuted in Scripture. When Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection they were frightened thinking they had seen a spirit.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Lk. 24:36-39 NKJ)

Notice Jesus' words, 'A spirit does not have flesh and bones'. Man cannot be a spirit because a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Man has flesh and bones. Jesus, in His resurrected state was not a spirit, He was human.

 

[Der Alte]

Revelations 21:4 is speaking specifically of the experience of the saved, God's children, after their death, not that of all people, saved and unsaved.
If you are going to take Christ's words in Revelation 21:5 totally literally, then "all" must

necessarily include God Himself. In what way will he be "made new" do you think? If you're going to exclude God from Christ's words, then you aren't taking his words literally and you must then justify why you are reading them that way when it comes to Hell.

Very astute observation, one which will be added to my saved discussion of this topic.

But the word "destroyed" is not always used in Scripture in the sense of "utter eradication or annihilation." Destroyed ("apollumi" in Greek) often means, "ruined" or "total loss of well-being" (ie. of wine skins: Lu. 5:37; of lost sheep: 15:6; of food: Jn.

6:27; of gold: 1Pe. 1:7). It can also mean "abolish," or "overthrow," "to loose" or "dissolve" among a wide variety of other meanings and associations. Insisting that "destroyed" must mean annihilation is convenient for what you're trying to contend, but is not, I think, faithfully handling the word of God. Other places in Scripture give us

good reason to think that the enemies of God are not destroyed in the sense that they are annihilated but rather suffer ruin and the loss of well-being.
Selah.

I have done considerable study of the word "apolummi" you might be interested in my conclusions.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment.
.....Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
The defintion of "aolummi" from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of NT Greek, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 (cf. Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12.
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[mmksparbud]

Notice how when scripture does not say what you want it to, you change it to make it say what you want. There is no indication in the text which shows that the events of Rev 20:8 happens before vs. 4. In fact vs. 6 says "it is done."

Revelation 21:4-6
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.​

Well, if you want heaven to be an eternity if looking at people writhing in agony --that is up to you. I prefer to go by what the bible says, which it says, as you just quoted, that the earth is made new and there will be more pain. No more pain means no more fire and brimstone and torment. If they remain then the no more pain or tears is not true. If hell remains, everything is not made new, if sinners remain, there is still sin, if hell remain, the former things have not passed away, if hell remains---then this is not true
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I have yet to understand the unrelenting wish to have people in agony forever and watching it going on--I truly do not comprehend the kind of heart that desires it. It's one thing if there were no other verses, no other way to understand the concept. But there is. Much more that point to an end to it. But it is preferable for some people to believe that people will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever. That kind of heart is difficult to comprehend. It has nothing to do with God, or the gospel or the kind of heart that God wants us to have towards each other. It sounds like, if it really will not happen that way, as those of us who do not believe in this concept believe, you guys will be very upset and angry and will question God as to why not torture them forever?!! I think you all will cry in disappointment.

 

[Der Alte]

It is called the "Second Death" because it is related to the "First Death." The "First Death" is when a person's first physical body dies. Then there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the damned. Death takes places again for those who are of the Resurrection of the Damned. ...

But the lake of fire is only called the second death, scripture shows it is not synonymous with death.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

 

[Stillicidia]

Yes hell should be considered a supported doctrine in the bible, because it is even in it, and dwells in the bible.

There are two things that cause people to turn from this.

1 the harshness is yet spoken of, if you ask god why is it so harsh, you don't do too badly, because he yet considers your very statement.

2 People think grace would overrule any of its doctrines. There is a saying that the holy spirit uses, there is grace, but then there is greasy grace. Be ye holy, even as god is holy.

People think hate is evil.

Yet hating sin is not evil.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Revelations 21:4 is speaking specifically of the experience of the saved, God's children, after their death, not that of all people, saved and unsaved.

If you are going to take Christ's words in Revelation 21:5 totally literally, then "all" must necessarily include God Himself. In what way will he be "made new" do you think? If you're going to exclude God from Christ's words, then you aren't taking his words literally and you must then justify why you are reading them that way when it comes to Hell.

First, verses have to be read as a whole. Second, read the context of the verses proceeding verses 4-5. Verses 1-3 is talking about the creation (i.e. a New Earth, New Heaven, New Jerusalem, and the bride (i.e. His people)).

But the word "destroyed" is not always used in Scripture in the sense of "utter eradication or annihilation." Destroyed ("apollumi" in Greek) often means, "ruined" or "total loss of well-being" (ie. of wine skins: Lu. 5:37; of lost sheep: 15:6; of food: Jn. 6:27; of gold: 1Pe. 1:7). It can also mean "abolish," or "overthrow," "to loose" or "dissolve" among a wide variety of other meanings and associations. Insisting that "destroyed" must mean annihilation is convenient for what you're trying to contend, but is not, I think, faithfully handling the word of God. Other places in Scripture give us good reason to think that the enemies of God are not destroyed in the sense that they are annihilated but rather suffer ruin and the loss of well-being.

Selah.

The context determines what is being destroyed. Seeing the first death is a destruction of most everyone's first body, the second death for the wicked (who will be a part of the resurrection of the damned) will partake of a death that is like the first one. If not, then it wouldn't be called the second death. It would have a new name because the type of death is different (according to you).

Also, Jesus says He has come to give us life and so that we may have it more abundantly. He says whoever obeys my teaching will never die. Now, these words from Jesus (among others) would not make a lick of sense if everyone is going to not die physically no matter what they do in regards to their decision with Jesus in this life.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the lake of fire is only called the second death, scripture shows it is not synonymous with death.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

But why is it called the "Second Death"? What is the first death? Do you think there is any kind of relation or connection?
Or are things in the Bible just not rational in how they are worded?
Also, we know in this world that fires consume things. This is what the Lake of Fire will do. Why? Because it is fire. Fire burns things up. That is what fire does.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's the creation. However, as I said, one must bring that idea to the Scriptures. Nothing in the Scriptures teaches that the dead are alive. That's why they're called the dead. The Bible is really quite clear on this issue, however, some just don't want to believe it. God told Adam that he was dust. He didn't say part of you is dust and part of you is spirit. He to Adam, 'thou art dust'. David said that the dead know nothing. He said to God, 'in death there is no remembrance of you'

5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:5 NKJ)

Now, how can someone who dies go and be with the Lord when David, who was a prophet, said there is no remembrance of God in death?

2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:2-4 KJV)

Notice in this passage David emphasizes that he will praise the Lord while he is alive. He knows he can't do it after he dies. Notice also that he says the breath or spirit of life goes forth, he returns to the earth and that very day his thoughts perish. Now, how can someone be conscious after death when his thoughts have perished? Notice when the breath or spirit of God leaves the man he returns to the dust. He doesn't go on to some other place as a conscious being.

For some reason people don't seem to want to believe this. Too many fall for the first lie. The first lie was told by Satan, 'you shall not surely die.' This is what many Christians today believe, they don't die. Instead the body dies but they live on in some disembodied state. However, this idea is nowhere taught in the Scriptures. Many Christians say that man is a spiritual being that lives in a flesh body and casts of the body at death. However, again this is not taught in Scripture. Actually, it's refuted in Scripture. When Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection they were frightened thinking they had seen a spirit.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Lk. 24:36-39 NKJ)

Notice Jesus' words, 'A spirit does not have flesh and bones'. Man cannot be a spirit because a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. Man has flesh and bones. Jesus, in His resurrected state was not a spirit, He was human.

Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 146:2-4 are both talking from the perspective of one's physical body alone (And it is not addressing their soul and spirit that continues on in the realm of the dead).

As for Jesus's words in Luke 24:36-39:
Jesus was referring to something that was spirit only because they thought he was a ghost. Jesus was not referring to how humans do not have a spirit inside of them. Mary said, "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47); Paul says, "...I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

As for death always meaning death:
The Bible refers to the wicked as being dead spiritually. For Jesus said, let the dead bury their own dead (Luke 9:60). Meaning, let the wicked unbelievers bury their own dead and come follow me. Also, 1 Timothy 5:6 talks about how those widows who live in pleasure are dead even while they are alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said that the prodigal son was dead and is alive again two times when his son returned home (Luke 15:11-32). Meaning, his son was dead spiritually to him when he went prodigal. But this does not mean the son was not alive physically, though.

...

 

[Der Alte]

Well, if you want heaven to be an eternity if looking at people writhing in agony --that is up to you. I prefer to go by what the bible says, which it says, as you just quoted, that the earth is made new and there will be more pain.

It is more like you go by what you want the Bible to say as I showed in my previous post, which, oh by the way, you have not addressed. Rev 20:4 refers to the new heaven and the new earth. The lake of fire was and is not a part of the old heaven and the old earth.

No more pain means no more fire and brimstone and torment. If they remain then the no more pain or tears is not true. If hell remains, everything is not made new, if sinners remain, there is still sin, if hell remain, the former things have not passed away, if hell remains---then this is not true

Hell was and is not part of the old heaven and earth, that is what passes away.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I have yet to understand the unrelenting wish to have people in agony forever and watching it going on--I truly do not comprehend the kind of

heart that desires it. It's one thing if there were no other verses, no other way to understand the concept. But there is. Much more that point to an end to it. But it is preferable for some people to believe that people will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever.

That kind of heart is difficult to comprehend. It has nothing to do with God, or the gospel or the kind of heart that God wants us to have towards each other. It sounds like, if it really will not happen that way, as those of us who do not believe in this concept believe, you

guys will be very upset and angry and will question God as to why not torture them forever?!! I think you all will cry in disappointment.

Notice how your entire argument disintegrates into a vitriolic, insulting, diatribe against everyone who interprets scripture differently than you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is more like you go by what you want the Bible to say as I showed in my previous post, which, oh by the way, you have not addressed. Rev 20:4 refers to the new heaven and the new earth. The lake of fire was and is not a part of the old heaven and the old earth.

Hell was and is not part of the old heaven and earth, that is what passes away.

Notice how your entire argument disintegrates into a vitriolic, insulting, diatribe against everyone who interprets scripture differently than you.

Not true. Jesus went to the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (i.e. the realm of the dead). Jesus said he would be with the thief on the cross in paradise that very day (i.e. Abraham's Bosom). Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison, too. This was not evangelization or anything (obviously). But it was Christ informing the wicked of something in hades or the place of torment.


...

 

[Der Alte]

But why is it called the "Second Death"? What is the first death? Do you think there is any kind of relation or connection?
Or are things in the Bible just not rational in how they are worded?
Also, we know in this world that fires consume things. This is what the Lake of Fire will do. Why? Because it is fire. Fire burns things up. That is what fire does.
...

I notice that you ignored my entire post. Fire consumes things? Not if God decides otherwise.

Exodus 3:1-2
(1) Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Daniel 3:13-14 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.​

 

[Der Alte]

Not true. Jesus went to the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (i.e. the realm of the dead). Jesus said he would be with the thief on the cross in paradise that very day (i.e. Abraham's Bosom). Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison, too. This was not evangelization or anything (obviously). But it was Christ informing the wicked of something in hades or the place of torment.
...

Which scripture identifies paradise as Abraham's bosom? Paul equates paradise with heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
Hell/the grave is never called prison and prison is never called hell/the grave in the NT.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

In the OT example given, eight people were saved alive, not from the grave.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, ​

Part of Jesus' earthly ministry was to preach "deliverance to the captives." Note that is right between "heal the brokenhearted" and "recovering of sight to the blind." The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war."

 

[mmksparbud]

Hell was and is not part of the old heaven and earth, that is what passes away

Prove it isn't--from what I read in scripture it is. You simply saying it isn't --doesn't prove a thing. Hell is instituted on the old earth, it is before the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. It is right after the 1000 years. It is thrown into the lake of fire along with death.---Then the earth is made new--It is clear. It all passes away.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Those that will not be there are listed by Jesus--and He says they will be sent to the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death which is described already in Rev 20:14 --there are not 2 2nd deaths, just one and that happens before the New Jerusalem comes down. Can't get any clearer

I notice that you ignored my entire post. Fire consumes things? Not if God decides otherwise.

Exodus 3:1-2
(1) Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Daniel 3:13-14 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.​

And in each of those--God is there. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that God is going to be right in there in hell along with the wicked.
.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Notice how your entire argument disintegrates into a vitriolic, insulting, diatribe against everyone who interprets scripture differently than you.

No--I am stating I do not understand why people want this to be real. I do not understand wanting to see people frying in hell forever. It is not a diatribe, the diatribe is yours. I am saddened that people feel this way. I do not want my brother frying forever, nor even those who have hurt me. A friend had her child raped and killed, even she doesn't want him tormented in hell forever---a couple 100 years she feels would be ok. She is very kind and I doubt she could stand a couple hundred years, esp since she knows, she will have her child forever with her, and that child will never be hurt or cry again.

 

[aiki]

The context determines what is being destroyed.

Or if anything is actually being destroyed in the sense of it being annihilated which in most instances it is not (see my last post).

Seeing the first death is a destruction of most everyone's first body, the second death for the wicked (who will be a part of the resurrection of the damned) will partake of a death that is like the first one.

Here are a few things to consider: Is our physical body upon its death annihilated? No. Even if it is cremated, it can't be said to have been annihilated, to be removed from existence entirely and utterly. We see, then, that the "destruction" of death does not necessitate or imply annihilation.

Why, if death means annihilation, do we read of the "second death" in Scripture? How can something that is destroyed utterly in death suffer a second such destruction? It seems pretty clear that "death" is not meant in Scripture to be understood as "removed from existence," or "annihilated."

Why do you assume that the second death is just like the first death? The circumstances surrounding the second death are significantly different from those accompanying the first. Why wouldn't this have an important bearing on the nature of the second death?

Also, Jesus says He has come to give us life and so that we may have it more abundantly. He says whoever obeys my teaching will never die. Now, these words from Jesus (among others) would not make a lick of sense if everyone is going to not die physically no matter what they do in regards to their decision with Jesus in this life.

So, how do you reconcile the declaration of Christ about giving us "abundant life" with the inevitable prospect of death? How does abundant life include death? How can Christ say those who obey his commands will never die when every believer since the time he uttered those words has died? Could it be that the death Jesus is speaking of is different from what you understand it to be?

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Well just exactly what do you think about God is there that needs to be made new??

I don't think anything about God needs to be made new. That was my point, actually. No one who has a proper biblical conception of God would say He can, or should, be made new. So, obviously then, when Jesus says "all" in Revelation 21:5 he is not speaking literally; some things are not included in the "all" he is thinking of. We would exclude a perfect God from the list and, I think, we should exclude an eternal Hell, too.

Selah.

 

[mmksparbud]

When God says all, He means all, and that is what He does. He certainly would not be including what does not belong on the earth as anything to do with what is being made new---He is not of this world, neither are the angels, neither is the New Jerusalem, neither are the saved for--again, they were changed at the resurrection and are already made new. He says what I made new--Hell and death are the old world and both are in the lake of fire before the new earth is made.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[mark kennedy]

שְׁאוֹל

shĕ'owl

sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1. the underworld
   
   
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
   
   
   

   1. place of no return
      
      
   2. without praise of God
      
      
   3. wicked sent there for punishment
      
      
   4. righteous not abandoned to it
      
      
   5. of the place of exile (fig)
      
      
   6. of extreme degradation in sin

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7585&t=KJV

Jonah cried out from sheol or hell.

"And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." (Jonah 2:2)​

How can somebody cry out from the dead of the grave? It doesn't make any sense. Jonah died and cried out from hell. He was one of the very few that was given a second chance.


...

Jonah never died, he was swallowed up by some kind of a fish that was specially prepared to swallow him without killing him. Three days and night he refused to take the word of God to Nineveh, finally he prayed that he would fulfill his vows. Still angry after they repented he is off somewhere sulking and God teaches him a little lesson, bottom line, I had mercy on you, why shouldn't I have mercy on them. Jonah cried out from the belly of the fish, which for all intents and purposes was his grave. That said, I'm interested in how the concept of Sheol developed through progressive revelation to be the Lake of Fire:

The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust"). SHEOL שְׁאוֹל (shĕ'owl):By: Emil G. Hirsch
​

We only get bits and pieces from the Old Testament but certainly fire is used in association with Sheol:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, H7585 and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:22)
​

Jesus elaborated with clarity and authority, bringing to the front early in his ministry that it was his purpose to offer repentance to escape this place. Now I'm seeing the continuance of Sheol and Hell so as an expositional challenge it becomes manageable.

I have a problem though, this isn't rhetoric or some trap, I'm seriously trying to wrap my mind around this. There is an old paradox that goes Can God make a rock too big for him to pick up, the obvious answer is no. Unless God can make something that he cannot destroy. We know that one day the elements will burn with a fervent heat:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. (2 Peter 3:10)
​

Everything else seems to be fine but I keep running into this verse:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)
​

I don't have an answer for this one, at least not yet. I know a little something about John though and the language he uses is the simplest in the New Testament, especially the epistles. It's nice because it makes exegesis a lot easier then say Hebrews, which is very complicated. When John describes the 7 lamps he uses a common word for a lamp but after a little study you come to find that the Menorah is actually a seven pronged lamp stand filled with oil and it burned continually in the Holy Place of the Temple.

Soul sleep I have to say you lost me completely, I find it indefensible and prone to error, no offense intended. Still, annihilation in the Lake of Fire seems almost tenable if you can clean up some pretty straight forward language here without distorting it. I'm trying to work with you on this but I can only take it so far.

I don't think anything about God needs to be made new. That was my point, actually. No one who has a proper biblical conception of God would say He can, or should, be made new. So, obviously then, when Jesus says "all" in Revelation 21:5 he is not speaking literally; some things are not included in the "all" he is thinking of. We would exclude a perfect God from the list and, I think, we should exclude an eternal Hell, too.

Selah.

Same problem, I understand your sensibilities here but we are still dealing with the exposition and some pretty complicated hermetical problems with consistency. Both Hell and death are destroyed in the Lake of Fire, there is some room for total annihilation but this fire never goes out. I can't help but wonder if even though the fire burns forever what has been thrown in does not.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28)
​

If you catch on fire and you are classified an Alpha fire by the Navy because you leave an ash. Perhaps they do burn forever and are tormented at least initially, but I strongly suspect the complete loss of coherence, cognition and a reduction to something less then nothing.

I say that conditionally, if and only if the consciousness of man and demon are extinguishable in the Lake of Fire. God made us, but can God make something he can't destroy or is he left with only being able to incapacitate them in a torturous fire that burns forever. I'm still a little on the fence but it's interesting that annihilation may well be the case.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Rodan6]

God is the absolute of love and logic. The concept of eternal torment is somewhat satisfying to the human sense of righteousness--that an evil-doer gets "what they deserve". But no good purpose is served by the eternal torment of individuals. A person who persists in false choices fails to create the essential building blocks of a surviving soul and thus their existence is terminated upon human death. Heaven is real, but "Hell" is not. NOTHING OF VALUE IS EVER LOST.

 

[razzelflabben]

But that is just it---it is all the scriptures, and when all are taken together and researched--it comes up with no eternal burning hell. You just want to keep the ones that imply eternal.

how so? I have yet to see someone explain how the passages that say an eternal hell are able to be reconciled with those that say destruction, etc. without there being an eternal hell. If you think you can do that, then why take this long to do so? Please, by all means show us how to reconcile it.

That is the problem, isn't it?
Still--the earth is made new, the old will all pass away, and there will be no pain, no tears, nor fire and brimstone tormenting anyone for ever. I really have no idea why the thought of that is so disturbing to you.

Actually, it's a rather comforting thought but you haven't shown it is scripture which is why I can't buy what your trying to sell me. You see, none of the passages that talk about the old passing away say or even suggest that hell is no more. See, Rev. 20:10 is one such passage you refuse to reconcile with the rest of scripture...Rev. which is written in Greek, uses the same word twice in order to empathize the period of time indicated. The translation of the world being.....

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
   
   
2. the worlds, universe
   
   
3. period of time, age
   

Further defined here....αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

the comparison word for those who refuse to actually study the word of God is Chronos which means ...

1. time either long or short

further defined...χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os; of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

so you see, for John to say aion and aion means that the period of time is more than likely (without having God or John sitting here to ask) forever and ever.

In fact, the same aion word is used to speak of God's reign in Matt. 6:13; Luke 18:30 uses the word to talk about eternal life; John 4:14 equates the word to drinking of the living water and never thirsting again; and John 6:51 of the bread of life that will fill us for all eternity; and on and on it goes.

Now, the argument could be made that Rev. 20:10 is figurative. Which is true, but then we must assume the intended meaning is that of the other such uses especially the one's written by John. IOW's John wouldn't use the word to mean one thing in some of his writings and something totally different in others. Thus suggesting as I have already stated several times and was ignored. To be 100% sure, we cannot be...however, the intent of the scriptures seems to indicate an eternal hell without finish. I see no other way to reconcile all the passages together and you fail to present any way for us to do so using common literary rules, context, translation issues, and the totality of scripture. As always I beg you to do so but if all your going to do is ignore what I and other say so that you can repeat your opinion, post a couple of proof texts and then bash others, no thanks, I am interested in real challenge and honest and fair communication.

Oh, one more thing, by me talking exclusively about Rev. 20:10 in this post I am NOT ignoring the other side as is evident in the context of this post. Rather I am building on the posts you have already provided and failed to address the points made.