The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

I posted that in post #44--and in several other threads on this subject.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

They still insist, perish doesn't mean perish---I asked for a verse that states death is eternal separation from God and no one gives me one, just repeat eternal separation from God as though that somehow proves it.

I've posted many but they remain ignored. I'm not going to keep wasting everyone including my own time if no one will address them when presented.

 

[mmksparbud]

okay, I think you are getting confused because you keep saying that hell is eternal life without God. The only eternal LIFE that exists is with God. The other is eternal death, which is separation from God and is also known as hell. this seems to be tripping you up. Eternal existance isn't questioned in scripture. In fact, we are told that man has a spirit/soul and that is eternal the flesh of man returns to dust and is temporal. The question is not if you will exist for eternity but if you will exist in the New Jerusalem or hell. Keeping straight eternal life and death might help you immensely. the second death is eternal separations from God...Here is a quick overview...
Revelation 20:14
Revelation 21:8
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:6
Jude 1:12 not sure why you posted these they do not disagree with anything I have said but add support to the other passages I presented. Meaning, it seems odd that you would disagree so whole heartedly while supporting my position in scripture. scripture says otherwise...Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20
there is a quick bible study for you, you can go deeper if you want why is it so hard for you all to accept that God made man with both a temporal body and a spiritual one? It is true that we need Jesus blood for eternal life, but without that blood we have eternal death. either way it's eternal because man is flesh and spirit...it's such a beautiful part of scripture and basic understanding of salvation, maybe you should invest some time in study on the matter. (deeper study of it anyway)

Bottom line, I'm not going to argue about what scripture clearly says. If you want to present something contradictory from scripture I am more than willing to entertain it but since I did a pretty comprehensive study on the "parts" of man according to scripture I'm guessing you will just dismiss the opportunity to prove me wrong.

PLEASE STATE THE VERSE THAT SAYS SPIRIT MEANS IMMORTAL.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Doesn't say he became an immortal soul. The breath of life goes back to God who gave---and man becomes dust again.

It might help you a lot if you understand that that there is either life or death-there is either breathing or not breathing, there is either immortality or mortal.
You completely ignore scripture.

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

and you completely ignored these

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It can't get any clearer. We are not immortal, we are given immortality. Adam and Eve were not given immortality---they had to eat of the tree of life for that and we will have that tree of life also.

 

[mmksparbud]

I've posted many but they remain ignored. I'm not going to keep wasting everyone including my own time if no one will address them when presented.

You have ignored all the ones I have posted.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree MMKSPARBUD.

Side Note:

Just remember to talk in love in return, my friend.



...

 

[razzelflabben]

What did Jesus "testify" about Hell?

that it exists....if these things were not so I would have told you...

 

[razzelflabben]

You have ignored all the ones I have posted.

I have ignored nothing, but when what is posted supports what I said it's hard to know exactly what you want me to say...

 

[Strong in Him]

What was Jesus talking about that led to the parable??

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In the "parable", the rich man wanted Lazarus to go to his family to warn them about the torment and the place that he found himself in. If there is no such place after death, and the soul is destroyed, annihilated, than that is no an issue and there would be no need for Jesus to even mention it. Or are you saying that he would tell a parable about something which is false and/or doesn't exist?

And there is still Matthew 25:46 - "they will go away to eternal punishment"

 

[mmksparbud]

that it exists....if these things were not so I would have told you...

Yes, if we were immortal, He would have said so. But He says He gives that to us a gift so that we do not perish.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh, then you do mean that hell is eternal life without God----Well, then--I take back my apology!!!
Eternal death is not eternal -- it is death-which is eternal--it is non existence--

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

since I was accused falsely of ignoring scripture, let's look at this...it is talking about death being swallowed up in victory...iow's eternal life not eternal death...In verse 16 it is referring to God's light which is His alone...so you see, this supports what I have said not questions it. At least when we read it for meaning.

We are not immortal---we are given immortality as a gift--God alone is immortal.
We require the Tree of Life for that immortality, as did Adam and Eve, which is why they were caste out of Eden
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

the tree in the garden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Notice I have repeatedly said that we have either eternal LIFE or eternal death...nothing in this questions what I said and in fact supports it....so again not sure what you want me to say to show that I did not ignore the passages you presented. IOW's the tree of life is not the tree of eternity...it is the tree of life, just like I said and supported in scripture that the soul/spirit is eternal

 

[Kenny'sID]

ah...something new to talk about...scripture talks about hell being a place of torment, but it doesn't say that we will have the same conscious "feelings" or sensations that we do in the fleshly body.

consider this, in the New Jerusalem there are no more tears or pain, etc. that does not mean that we are no longer conscious but that our new immortal consciousness is without tears and pain. I think it is reasonable to say that scriptural speaking our new immortal consciousness may or may not be of the same nature as our fleshly consciousness. What we do know is that hell is torment, anguish, gnashing of teeth, what we do NOT know if exactly what the torment is. IT could be like the flesh, or emotional, or spiritual, or all three, or something different, or some combination thereof.

Those are fair points, and it could also be that the pain thresholds are identical simply because God assumes that's what we will assume, at least in general. IOW no need to be tricky about it, just make everything relevant. But that's just another possibility.

We do have a hint on something there in the Lazarus Parable. He was asking for a drop of water, so apparently he was dried out, and very uncomfortable like we might be in a hot place with no water. If he didn't have even a drop of water, he may very well have had no water at all, meaning he didn't require that, or maybe even food to live.

That kind of goes along with the Biblical quote someplace, I don't know where right off hand, of us having no need of food in heaven, but it never really says we can't eat.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have ignored nothing, but when what is posted supports what I said it's hard to know exactly what you want me to say...

How can the verses I posted support that we are immortal, when the verses I posted state we are not? How can God being the only one that is immortal support we are immortal? Can't see how any of the verses I quoted support what you say. But if that is what you see--I don't know what to say either!

 

[razzelflabben]

Then please state the verse that says we are anything but mortal and must be given immortality. The scriptures say we are mortal---they say we are given the gift of eternal life. They say only God is immortal.

wow, how many times must I present them? Scripture says man is flesh and spirit/soul....let me find someone elses list since you refuse mine...Job 32:8 - But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 6:17 - But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 - The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 4:24 - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Romans 8:10 - And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

I didn't go through them all since I presented those that talk about the eternal nature and you all ignored them...the most clearly stated is Ecc. 12:7 but there are many others that say the same thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In the "parable", the rich man wanted Lazarus to go to his family to warn them about the torment and the place that he found himself in. If there is no such place after death, and the soul is destroyed, annihilated, than that is no an issue and there would be no need for Jesus to even mention it. Or are you saying that he would tell a parable about something which is false and/or doesn't exist?

I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a real literal story, yet I also believe the rich-man was not being tortured in any flames. I also believe the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will destroy or annihilate the wicked, too.

Check out my explanation here (that was within this thread):
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-torture-in-hell.7964946/page-7#post-70125408

And there is still Matthew 25:46 - "they will go away to eternal punishment"

Notice what it says in Matthew 25:46. It says "everlasting punishment" and it does not say "everlasting punishment while they are yet alive." The "punishment" (that is everlasting) is speaking of "everlasting destruction." How so?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says,
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

"Destruction" is when something is broken down and destroyed and is no more. For example: If a man destroyed a piece of paper with fire, it is no longer in the same form than it was before


...

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, if we were immortal, He would have said so. But He says He gives that to us a gift so that we do not perish.

okay, so now you are changing the topic and expect that to help? We were talking about hell existing that is what the comments you are quoting here were referring to....as to mortality, that is another topic altogether it would help if you don't play the shifting topic game.

 

[mmksparbud]

since I was accused falsely of ignoring scripture, let's look at this...it is talking about death being swallowed up in victory...iow's eternal life not eternal death...In verse 16 it is referring to God's light which is His alone...so you see, this supports what I have said not questions it. At least when we read it for meaning. the tree in the garden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Notice I have repeatedly said that we have either eternal LIFE or eternal death...nothing in this questions what I said and in fact supports it....so again not sure what you want me to say to show that I did not ignore the passages you presented. IOW's the tree of life is not the tree of eternity...it is the tree of life, just like I said and supported in scripture that the soul/spirit is eternal

That was 2 separate trees---They could eat of the tree of life, as we will---they could not of the Good and Evil. Once they ate of it, that was it--they did not need to eat of the that tree again as they now knew good and evil. They were barred from the tree of life to keep them from living forever. We will not have to eat of the tree of Good and evil--Adam and Eve did that for us and we all know only too well what evil is and certainly will not need to be eating of it in heaven! With 12 different fruits a month no less!
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You have presented no verses that say we have an immortal soul.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, if we were immortal, He would have said so. But He says He gives that to us a gift so that we do not perish.

btw, He says He gives us eternal life, nothing about mortality because mortality is already part of man according to scripture.

 

[mmksparbud]

okay, so now you are changing the topic and expect that to help? We were talking about hell existing that is what the comments you are quoting here were referring to....as to mortality, that is another topic altogether it would help if you don't play the shifting topic game.

No it is not---you can not live in hell forever and not be immortal!

 

[mmksparbud]

btw, He says He gives us eternal life, nothing about mortality because mortality is already part of man according to scripture.

Exactly--we are mortal.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[razzelflabben]

Those are fair points, and it could also be that the pain thresholds are identical simply because God assumes that's what we will assume, at least in general. IOW no need to be tricky about it, just make everything relevant. But that's just another possibility.

We do have a hint on something there in the Lazarus Parable. He was asking for a drop of water, so apparently he was dried out, and very uncomfortable like we might be in a hot place with no water. If he didn't have even a drop of water, he may very well have had no water at all, meaning he didn't require that, or maybe even food to live.

That kind of goes along with the Biblical quote someplace, I don't know where right off hand, of us having no need of food in heaven, but it never really says we can't eat.

It reminds me of the scriptures that tell us Jesus is the bread of life and the water that quenches our thirst for eternity. I would think that it could be possible that the "drop of water" he begged for was the water of life...not sure, again, not something we know about hell

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm getting whiplash!!---be back later!!