The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

How can the verses I posted support that we are immortal, when the verses I posted state we are not? How can God being the only one that is immortal support we are immortal? Can't see how any of the verses I quoted support what you say. But if that is what you see--I don't know what to say either!

there is a difference between immorality and eternal life. I talked about this already. As such the passages support what I said not contradict it.

 

[mmksparbud]

there is a difference between immorality and eternal life. I talked about this already. As such the passages support what I said not contradict it.

How is eternal life and immortality different??--I've got a headache along with the whiplash!

 

[razzelflabben]

That was 2 separate trees-

I so want to say duh here, but instead I will just say yeah...if that is all you got from my post you have no clue what the point was.

--They could eat of the tree of life, as we will---they could not of the Good and Evil. Once they ate of it, that was it--they did not need to eat of the that tree again as they now knew good and evil. They were barred from the tree of life to keep them from living forever. We will not have to eat of the tree of Good and evil--Adam and Eve did that for us and we all know only too well what evil is and certainly will not need to be eating of it in heaven! With 12 different fruits a month no less!
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You have presented no verses that say we have an immortal soul.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I have presented many and even Gen. tells us that, but the above shows that you didn't read my post so I don't know what else to say. You have passages and have been shown in Gen. how the tree of life wasn't about physical immorality. In fact, Matthew 10:28 tells us that man has a soul/spirit that is eternal....you know can be destroyed in hell....notice soul and body are separate...some of you all seem to think they are the same thing.

 

[jeager016]

How is eternal life and immortality different??--I've got a headache along with the whiplash!

Me too!
(though I think I know what the point is.)

 

[razzelflabben]

No it is not---you can not live in hell forever and not be immortal!

huh...you must be talking to someone else, nothing in this reflects what you are quoting

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Do you expect to "see" God physically in the Heaven?

No, since words like "see" and "in" belong to the contingent universe. Unless "heaven" is a spatio-temporal reality, thinking in terms of physical senses and material orientation is unfruitful for talking about things as-they-are-in-themselves. Hence the point I've been making about the interpretive considerations that must be in place when approaching the language of Revelations.

I do. Since I can see myself, why not also see God?

You are a material being that exists in the contingent, material domain of universe. God is not "of" the universe, but is rather "other-than" the universe. To speak of God in literal, physical terms is blasphemous at worst, a sign of some serious theological misunderstanding at best.

Can angels "see" God? Yes. Could Adam "see" God? Yes.

I point you again to my assertions above regarding interpretive considerations of this kind of literature.

The "material" in the Heaven is different from the material as we know it now.

This statement is based on the assumption that "heaven" exists in a corollary state of being as the contingent, material universe that has a spatio-temporal orientation. If we conceive of an existence that is distinct from these features (and is, in fact, something which we MUST do when we conceive of God apart from the assumption of the existence of the universe), then there is no sense in which "in heaven" makes much sense, much less a discussion of the materiality of the same.

 

[razzelflabben]

Exactly--we are mortal.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

wow...what ever you can't even address my posts how can we think you understand scripture?

 

[razzelflabben]

How is eternal life and immortality different??--I've got a headache along with the whiplash!

if you would address posts instead of quoting them talking about something different you might be able to follow better. Man's immortality consists of one of two things, eternal life in Christ or eternal death in hell.

 

[mmksparbud]

I so want to say duh here, but instead I will just say yeah...if that is all you got from my post you have no clue what the point was. I have presented many and even Gen. tells us that, but the above shows that you didn't read my post so I don't know what else to say. You have passages and have been shown in Gen. how the tree of life wasn't about physical immorality. In fact, Matthew 10:28 tells us that man has a soul/spirit that is eternal....you know can be destroyed in hell....notice soul and body are separate...some of you all seem to think they are the same thing.

The point is Jesus said they will both be destroyed in hell.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;" (1 Corinthians 15:50)

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39).

So obviously the things that are spirit are not exactly solid in every case when they interact with our physical world.

Yes, I am aware of the three visitors involving Abraham. I believe this was the Lord Jesus and two angels and that they did eat actual physical food. But generally, spirits are not always solid because we cannot see them and dark spirits can possess people.

I am also aware that a city in heaven (New Jerusalem) will come down from heaven and land upon the New Earth, too. Whether this city was solid or not (to the real world), it will be solid on the New Earth, for sure.


...

I will repeat myself: I'm not talking about God in relation to the Incarnation of Christ, or even in reference to possible "manifestations" of God within the contingent universe. I'm talking about God as God, God as God is apart from any assumption of the existence of the universe.

 

[mmksparbud]

if you would address posts instead of quoting them talking about something different you might be able to follow better. Man's immortality consists of one of two things, eternal life in Christ or eternal death in hell.

Again--God alone is immortal. He gives us eternal life--immortality with Him---or eternal death--right--eternal death--annihilation, eternally without life, without the spirit that is destroyed in hell as Jesus said. Simple.

 

[razzelflabben]

PLEASE STATE THE VERSE THAT SAYS SPIRIT MEANS IMMORTAL.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Doesn't say he became an immortal soul. The breath of life goes back to God who gave---and man becomes dust again.

It might help you a lot if you understand that that there is either life or death-there is either breathing or not breathing, there is either immortality or mortal.
You completely ignore scripture.

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

and you completely ignored these

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It can't get any clearer. We are not immortal, we are given immortality. Adam and Eve were not given immortality---they had to eat of the tree of life for that and we will have that tree of life also.

been presented enough times that if you were willing to do more than waste my time you would have addressed them by now. You didn't even have the courtesy to point out why you were dismissing them...that is just sad. Scripture tells us everything God wants us to know. When we just causally dismiss it as you have repeatedly done we can't hope to know the real living God. At least have the courtesy to acknowledge they were provided even if you want to dismiss them without cause.

 

[razzelflabben]

The point is Jesus said they will both be destroyed in hell.

remember when I asked you all to answer a couple of questions and I said that I would be fair enough to talk about the problems but first you had to answer the questions? this is one of the things we need to talk about later, we dare not put the cart before the horse, you all don't even know the difference between eternal life and eternal death yet.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again--God alone is immortal. He gives us eternal life--immortality with Him---or eternal death--right--eternal death--annihilation, eternally without life, without the spirit that is destroyed in hell as Jesus said. Simple.

see previous posts

 

[Catherineanne]

Seems as if Psychopath God is alive and well.

Shame Psychopath God is incompatible with the Living God who we encounter through Christ.

More like Molech. Or Baal.

Nothing like Christ.

What fun.

 

[mmksparbud]

Have not dismissed anything--I have refuted them with the scriptures that say just the opposite which you wish to ignore--which is your right to do. Can't get any clearer than the body and soul are destroyed in hell, God alone is immortal, the saved are given the gift of eternal life with the right to eat of the Tree of Life, the dead are like chaff and destroyed in the fire leaving neither root nor stubble. There is no sin in heaven, or on the earth made new, there are no sinners, sin, death and hell itself is destroyed in the lake of fire--zip, nothing left of any of it. Simple---No Sinner with his sins left languishing in torment forever anywhere---life with God is continued without the presence of sin or sinners anywhere--only the ever present scars of the price Jesus paid to rescue us from that annihilation and give us life eternal with Him. Doesn't get any better than that.

 

[razzelflabben]

Seems as if Psychopath God is alive and well.

Shame Psychopath God is incompatible with the Living God who we encounter through Christ.

More like Molech. Or Baal.

Nothing like Christ.

What fun.

there are some here who would say the same of you and your views....point being we need to conform to forum rules and address posts not posters even if it is just a general ignoring of what is being said.

 

[mmksparbud]

there are some here who would say the same of you and your views....point being we need to conform to forum rules and address posts not posters even if it is just a general ignoring of what is being said.

She didn't say anything about any poster! Unless God posted somewhere, for that is whom she is calling pyscho---as a metaphor I am assuming for someone who burns and torments and tortures anyone forever---heck, even I wouldn't give Hitler more than 1 or 2 thousand years. I think just about everyone would have had enough of that by then.

 

[food4thought]

Have not dismissed anything--I have refuted them with the scriptures that say just the opposite which you wish to ignore--which is your right to do. Can't get any clearer than the body and soul are destroyed in hell, God alone is immortal, the saved are given the gift of eternal life with the right to eat of the Tree of Life, the dead are like chaff and destroyed in the fire leaving neither root nor stubble. There is no sin in heaven, or on the earth made new, there are no sinners, sin, death and hell itself is destroyed in the lake of fire--zip, nothing left of any of it. Simple---No Sinner with his sins left languishing in torment forever anywhere---life with God is continued without the presence of sin or sinners anywhere--only the ever present scars of the price Jesus paid to rescue us from that annihilation and give us life eternal with Him. Doesn't get any better than that.

I am curious to hear how an annihilationist interprets these verses:

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
(Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV)

Please actually tell me what exactly these verses do mean if they do not mean ECT.

 

[Hillsage]

How is eternal life and immortality different??--I've got a headache along with the whiplash!

See a chiropractor and then study to cure your lack of understanding.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;