(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Thank you. I have been at CF for about 2 decades. One of the things I learned early on is that the hard core heterodox are almost impossible to reach. So my efforts are aimed at those who are unsure, wavering thinking about joining or leaving such a group and I have had some success here and on other forums.Der Alter, you're a glutton for punishment! Thus far, you've made a very excellent and unrefuted case for your views, despite the unpleasant and disrespectful rhetoric of ClementofA. Well done. I've greatly appreciated your efforts in going into the minutiae of Scripture and sussing out its meaning. Thanks for defending an essential, though difficult, doctrine of the Christian faith!
In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve.
In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve.
In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.
I suggest the following:
1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell
This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:
1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell
Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.
Discuss.
There is no such thing as eternal torture. In the very end all sin and the sinful wicked will be destroyed by fire and God will make the earth anew.
It's about eternal death (never to exist again) or eternal life with God .... period!
Is it not in the very end after all is said and done about eternal life or eternal death?
God has perfect Love and Mercy.
1 John 4:8 [Full Chapter]
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
God ALSO has perfect Justice and judgments.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
He loves sinners. He hates sin.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us. (on our behalf)
Malachi 2:16
For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong (sin),” says the Lord of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”
God is the absolute of love and logic. Those who embrace these great truths should understand that there is no logical purpose in the eternal torment of souls. The craving for the existence of a place for eternal torment comes from the human longing for revenge. As we seek God, we are drawn to Him through our efforts to be like Him. In our modern age, we are called upon to let go of our primitive urges in this great quest. Anger, prejudice and thoughts of revenge all serve to impede our spiritual progress.
<R6>God is the absolute of love and logic. Those who embrace these great truths should understand that there is no logical purpose in the eternal torment of souls. The craving for the existence of a place for eternal torment comes from the human longing for revenge. As we seek God, we are drawn to Him through our efforts to be like Him. In our modern age, we are called upon to let go of our primitive urges in this great quest. Anger, prejudice and thoughts of revenge all serve to impede our spiritual progress.<end>begin
A fine summary without one verse of scripture. This summary might be accurate if it did not ignore every verse which contradicts it. And before you respond with the usual automatonic objection please read my explanation of the validity of the Jewish beliefs.
Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both
sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the
belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.
A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced instead of correcting their belief.
.....You also seem to be ignoring the fact that, although Jesus criticized or corrected the Jewish leaders on their beliefs several times, He never specifically told the Jews that their belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment of the wicked was wrong?
I have told you before stating how the Jews interpreted and put in to practice their Hebrew scriptures is not "myths and fables"
Dear Eleos: Watch those "period" points! There is no such animal as "eternal death".
Here is a new word for you>>>>>>>>
"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists and in Him the all ends..."
He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all.
Ta pante= the all
Your "new word" was blank.
In the end, the saved receive eternal life ..... the opposite of that would be eternal death .... or .... mortality verses immortality ... being with the Lord for eternity or not being with the Lord for eternity, whatever "words" you would like to use.
Point is ... or was ..... the unsaved are not tortured for eternity. They will not receive immortality ..... they will cease to exist for eternity.
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
"shall not perish" in relation to eternal life.
Call it what you want. I call it eternal death .... or eternal life. One lives with the Lord .... or one ceases to exist ..... both are eternal (unending) meaning forever
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