CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY - annihiliationism

[Choir Loft]

Very few people study the subject of hell. Why?

Liberals don't believe in it.
Conservatives think they've got all the answers, so why bother?

Biblically, the assertion of the existence of hell is based upon a false premise.

[Read the following very carefully.]
A challenge will be issued at the end.
Can you accept the challenge and prove hell?

Come. Let us reason together.

===================================================

The false doctrine of hell is based upon another false belief - that the human spirit is immortal.

If we are to get anywhere we must begin at the beginning - with an understanding and definition of the nature of the human spirit. While we're at it we may also touch on the nature of the spirit of God as a comparison or standard or benchmark. If you are following me so far we'll get started.....

If justice is to be dispensed upon an eternal human spirit, justice must also be eternal.

BUT, if the human spirit is NOT immortal then an everlasting punishment is neither required nor necessary. Dispensation of justice only needs to be permanent - the sin as well as the sinner must cease to exist in any form in any place at any time for all time. Permanent cessation is also called annihilation, eradication or termination. It stops. It ceases to exist in any form whatsoever - in time as well as eternity.

- or look at it this way -

If the existence of a sinful human spirit is continuous, even in a state of hellish punishment, then it isn't actually ended, terminated or eradicated. It may be said to continue to exist in another form and in another place albeit an unpleasant one.

Therefore we must define the nature of the human spirit. Is it immortal or mortal?

The plausibility of the existence of hell is therefore determined by the inherent properties of the human spirit.

To explore this idea we must define the nature of the human spirit - and God too while we're at it.

“At the heart of current Christian belief in the afterlife is the Greek idea that a human spirit is an entity separable from the body which can remain conscious even when the body is dead and which possesses some quality which makes it indestructible.’”
(Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology)

This is the core of Christian thought concerning hell and the destiny of the human spirit. Every eschatological assertion about hell depends upon the immortality of the human spirit.

“…the traditional view simply ignores much scriptural teaching on this subject. It is all the more apparent that its real foundations are ecclesiastical tradition and a vague notion (often overtly denied but constantly reappearing in print) that even the wicked have a soul (or some other aspect or substance) which will always exist, even cut off entirely from God and subjected to his consuming wrath.

Yet not one passage of scripture ever hints that it is the case.”
- Edward Fudge THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

This is the point where the idea of hell falls apart - that the human spirit is mortal.

As promised, let's take a contrasting peek at what the Bible says about the quality of God, “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
- 1 Tim 6:16

Only God is immortal. Man is not.

This certification of Biblical doctrine cannot be ignored. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove by Biblical reference that man is immortal.

NOWHERE does the Bible assert man is anything other than mortal in body mind or spirit.

Here is the challenge:
PROVE that the Bible says - anywhere - in context specific reference or hint that man is immortal.

You cannot because it's simply not there. The spirit of man is MORTAL. Therefore an eternal hell isn't necessary. Upon death of the physical body, the disembodied spirit of man is subject to annihilation, termination and any other word you want to use to describe permanent cessation.

[EXCEPTION]

The Bible also teaches the spiritual principle of "derived immortality" or "conditional immortality". This then is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that those who repent of their sin and accept the life of Christ ARE GRANTED IMMORTAL LIFE. The Bible calls it "the Second Birth".(2 Corinthians 5:17) This is what 'being saved' is all about.

Those who reject Christ also reject the opportunity to receive the gift of immortality. Permanent destruction and cessation of existence is the inevitable result. Is this not the ultimate act of a fool?

The challenge repeated here is for the reader to DISPROVE, by means of Biblical reference context or hint the assertion that the human spirit is mortal.

You cannot prove the immortality of the human spirit because it isn't.

By logical extension, therefore, the Greek concept of hell is not Biblical. Eternal torture is not an aspect of Final Divine Judgment. The wicked are permanently annihilated in the Lake of Fire, which burns eternally.

FINAL JUDGMENT

The Bible clearly states the spirits of the wicked will be ejected from the presence of God and all of His benefits. (Matt 7:23)

Does this not also imply spiritual mortality?
All life comes from God. Without God there is no life at all.
Death is the only alternative.

Our loving God does not run an eternal torture chamber and He is not some gruesome monster who takes pleasure in everlasting torment. HE is JUST and will eliminate sin and sinner.

God has spoken. One way or the other SIN WILL END.

Either one will repent of sin and be saved - or be destroyed forever in the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. There are only two options: repent or die.

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." - Daniel 9:24

It is time to repent of sin and make peace with God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ewq1938]

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

This is the point where the idea of hell falls apart - that the human spirit is mortal.

While I believe in annihilation, I think you fell short in proving it. I'll use the above as an example. The translation is awful...the 120 years isn't a limit on how old a human can be but how long before the flood came so it not really about man being mortal plus the main problem is that it doesn't address or affect whether man's spirit is mortal or immortal.

This is the only verse that can settle that:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul and spirit are actually on in the same, two parts of the same thing...you have to study the two in both Hebrew and Greek but the definitions are identical. So, if the soul is destroyed so is the spirit which would prove these things in a human can be destroyed by God.

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions

SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.

Again using the Strong's:




Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.



Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.[/quote]


Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided difference between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side per se'.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think much of the interpretations of the doctrines of "hell" are wrong.

However, I do believe (and historically Christians from the time of the Apostles have taught) that every soul will be resurrected (reunited with the body) and will continue on.

The state in which they experience eternity has more to do with they themselves - whether they respond to God with love (He loves all of His creation - God's very nature is agape-love) or whether they resist Him and hate Him, in which case His presence and love have the experience of a consuming fire.

Some have hoped even that the suffering they experience as a result of perverting their nature could be didactic and they might even (at least some) be reconciled ultimately, but that is a speculation we can't possibly know and have no right to expect.

 

[bcbsr]

Very few people study the subject of hell. Why?

Liberals don't believe in it.
Conservatives think they've got all the answers, so why bother?

Biblically, the assertion of the existence of hell is based upon a false premise.

[Read the following very carefully.]
A challenge will be issued at the end.
Can you accept the challenge and prove hell?

Come. Let us reason together.

===================================================

The false doctrine of hell is based upon another false belief - that the human spirit is immortal.

If we are to get anywhere we must begin at the beginning - with an understanding and definition of the nature of the human spirit. While we're at it we may also touch on the nature of the spirit of God as a comparison or standard or benchmark. If you are following me so far we'll get started.....

If justice is to be dispensed upon an eternal human spirit, justice must also be eternal.

BUT, if the human spirit is NOT immortal then an everlasting punishment is neither required nor necessary. Dispensation of justice only needs to be permanent - the sin as well as the sinner must cease to exist in any form in any place at any time for all time. Permanent cessation is also called annihilation, eradication or termination. It stops. It ceases to exist in any form whatsoever - in time as well as eternity.

- or look at it this way -

If the existence of a sinful human spirit is continuous, even in a state of hellish punishment, then it isn't actually ended, terminated or eradicated. It may be said to continue to exist in another form and in another place albeit an unpleasant one.

Therefore we must define the nature of the human spirit. Is it immortal or mortal?

The plausibility of the existence of hell is therefore determined by the inherent properties of the human spirit.

To explore this idea we must define the nature of the human spirit - and God too while we're at it.

“At the heart of current Christian belief in the afterlife is the Greek idea that a human spirit is an entity separable from the body which can remain conscious even when the body is dead and which possesses some quality which makes it indestructible.’”
(Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology)

This is the core of Christian thought concerning hell and the destiny of the human spirit. Every eschatological assertion about hell depends upon the immortality of the human spirit.

“…the traditional view simply ignores much scriptural teaching on this subject. It is all the more apparent that its real foundations are ecclesiastical tradition and a vague notion (often overtly denied but constantly reappearing in print) that even the wicked have a soul (or some other aspect or substance) which will always exist, even cut off entirely from God and subjected to his consuming wrath.

Yet not one passage of scripture ever hints that it is the case.”
- Edward Fudge THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

This is the point where the idea of hell falls apart - that the human spirit is mortal.

As promised, let's take a contrasting peek at what the Bible says about the quality of God, “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
- 1 Tim 6:16

Only God is immortal. Man is not.

This certification of Biblical doctrine cannot be ignored. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove by Biblical reference that man is immortal.

NOWHERE does the Bible assert man is anything other than mortal in body mind or spirit.

Here is the challenge:
PROVE that the Bible says - anywhere - in context specific reference or hint that man is immortal.

You cannot because it's simply not there. The spirit of man is MORTAL. Therefore an eternal hell isn't necessary. Upon death of the physical body, the disembodied spirit of man is subject to annihilation, termination and any other word you want to use to describe permanent cessation.

[EXCEPTION]

The Bible also teaches the spiritual principle of "derived immortality" or "conditional immortality". This then is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that those who repent of their sin and accept the life of Christ ARE GRANTED IMMORTAL LIFE. The Bible calls it "the Second Birth".(2 Corinthians 5:17) This is what 'being saved' is all about.

Those who reject Christ also reject the opportunity to receive the gift of immortality. Permanent destruction and cessation of existence is the inevitable result. Is this not the ultimate act of a fool?

The challenge repeated here is for the reader to DISPROVE, by means of Biblical reference context or hint the assertion that the human spirit is mortal.

You cannot prove the immortality of the human spirit because it isn't.

By logical extension, therefore, the Greek concept of hell is not Biblical. Eternal torture is not an aspect of Final Divine Judgment. The wicked are permanently annihilated in the Lake of Fire, which burns eternally.

FINAL JUDGMENT

The Bible clearly states the spirits of the wicked will be ejected from the presence of God and all of His benefits. (Matt 7:23)

Does this not also imply spiritual mortality?
All life comes from God. Without God there is no life at all.
Death is the only alternative.

Our loving God does not run an eternal torture chamber and He is not some gruesome monster who takes pleasure in everlasting torment. HE is JUST and will eliminate sin and sinner.

God has spoken. One way or the other SIN WILL END.

Either one will repent of sin and be saved - or be destroyed forever in the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. There are only two options: repent or die.

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." - Daniel 9:24

It is time to repent of sin and make peace with God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Lk 16:22-25
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own (SPIRITUAL) image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God has no Body/Soul combination like Man.

John 4:24
God is (IMMORTAL) spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Man has 3 parts:
Body/ Soul / Spirit

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The mortal body/soul combo is the temporary "house" of the immortal spirit.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Luke 23:46...Jesus on the Cross
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (body/soul combo bled to death)

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (mortal Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the (immortal) SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives "breath" to the people on it (Body/Soul combo)And
SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men (Body/Soul combo) to "die" once
and after this comes judgment,(of immortal SPIRIT)

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Saved alive spirits => heavenly realms
wicked dead spirits => "lake of fire"

 

[Ron Gurley]

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s (spiritual) name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", he was thrown into the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them (unbelievers) was thrown into the "lake of fire" and brimstone, where the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet (anti-spirit are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

Very few people study the subject of hell. Why?
Liberals don't believe in it.
Conservatives think they've got all the answers, so why bother?
Biblically, the assertion of the existence of hell is based upon a false premise.
[Read the following very carefully.]
A challenge will be issued at the end.
Can you accept the challenge and prove hell?
Come. Let us reason together.
===================================================
The false doctrine of hell is based upon another false belief - that the human spirit is immortal.

.....About the "false belief that the human spirit is immortal."
.....In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD..​

Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Der Alte]

Very few people study the subject of hell. Why?
Liberals don't believe in it.
Conservatives think they've got all the answers, so why bother?
Biblically, the assertion of the existence of hell is based upon a false premise.
[Read the following very carefully.]
A challenge will be issued at the end.
Can you accept the challenge and prove hell?
Come. Let us reason together.
===================================================
The false doctrine of hell is based upon another false belief - that the human spirit is immortal.

.....Now about the "false doctrine of hell."
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.

 

[ClementofA]

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

The same Hebrew word (OLAM, 5769) used for "forever" appears in Lam.3:31:

For the Lord will not cast off forever, (Lam.3:31)

32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

NIV Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Many ancient translations do not say "contend with", but "abide in" or "dwell in":

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

"...Shall not dwell (LXX., οὐ μὴ καταμείνη; Vulgate, non permanebit; Syriac, Onkelos)."

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

"Genesis 6:3 compare perhaps continue, do something continually, in modern Egyptian Arabic (SoSK lxvii {1894}, 211 f.). (1) ᵐ5 ᵑ9 ᵑ6 Onk read ידיר or (Kue) ילון abide in, dwell, — My spirit will not abide in man for ever; this best suits the context, but ידור, as Aramaism, is dubious (2) Kn De Schr RVm render rule in, supported by Zechariah 3:7 only. (3) Thes Ew Di render be humbled in, sustained by Arabic usage, but not by Hebrew (4) strive with of AV RV (compare 6 above) is hardly justified."

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah saith, 'My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Concordant Literal Version
And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And Yahweh said—My spirit shall not rule in man to times age—abiding, for that, he also, is flesh,—Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

NET Bible
So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."

ISV
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not remain with human beings forever, because they are truly mortal, and their lifespan will be 120 years.

English Standard Version
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

John Wycliffe's Translation
And God seide, My spirit schal not dwelle in man with outen ende, for he is fleisch; and the daies of hym schulen be an hundrid and twenti yeer.

Brenton English Septuagint Translation
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Charles Thompson Translation (of the LXX)
then the Lord God said, "My breath must not continue in these men to this age, because they are flesh; their days however, shall be an hundred and twenty years

Complete Apostle's Bible (of the LXX)
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men forever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be one hundred and twenty years.

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen.12:3)


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[Der Alte]

I have told you before stating how the Jews interpreted and put in to practice their Hebrew scriptures is not "myths and fables"

 

[ClementofA]

I have told you before stating how the Jews interpreted and put in to practice their Hebrew scriptures is not "myths and fables"

Who are you replying to?

And who cares what - anti Christ - Jews who rejected the Savior of all thought about the Scriptures? What makes you think they could correctly interpret the Scriptures any more than they could correctly identify the Messiah they crucified?

Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Choir Loft]

Many good responses here, but the basic fall back position seems to focus upon hell or gehenna whatever spelling and/or definition one may wish to employ.

Again.....

The doctrine of hell is predicated upon the immortality of the human spirit. If the human spirit cannot be demonstrated to be immortal, then a logical eternal punishment cannot be doctrinally justified.

The human spirit is mortal.

Descriptions of the afterlife are irrelevant to prove immortality. These descriptions insert conclusions before the proofs as a sort of self-fulfilling or self-proving doctrine. The Bible does not say the spirit of man is immortal.

Chapter and verse, please, not indirect references.

The only exception to human mortality is the second birth - the gracious gift of God to those who accept His life in Christ Jesus.

All others suffer the Second Death - spiritual termination or annihilation.

And also........

Justification of the doctrine of hell suggests God is an unjust monster, concerned only with executing everlasting vengance upon the spirits of humans that only sinned in a temporal environment.

The just punishment for temporal sin cannot be eternal punishment, but a punishment in time - permanent annihilation.

The consequence of the doctrine of hell is to provide logical ammunition to enemies of the gospel. Christians ironically inhibit their own efforts to convince the unsaved with threats of eternal punishment at the hands of a vengeful God (rather than a just and loving one). Is this Biblical? I submit it is not.

My purpose here is to seek a Biblical truth which presents the justice of God as well as His character in a favorable, if not popular, position.

The morality of the spirit of man solves many theological and logical problems.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ClementofA]

....A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
A fate worse than death is also mentioned i
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Choir Loft]

Post #13 is a rather lengthy repetitive confirmation of the traditional doctrine of hell....

Yet it does NOT by any reference of scripture state that the spirit of man is immortal.

Inferences to the immortality of the human spirit and the existence of eternal hell are made by utilizing tangential remarks and examples, but do not quote scripture. Therefore none of the remarks of #13 certify the immortality of the human spirit or the existence of hell as an everlasting punishment. Quite the contrary, some of the remarks of #13 suggest a temporary punishment.

But hell is not the subject of this thread.

As stated before, hell is an extension of the false doctrine of the immortality of the human spirit WHICH CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED BY SCRIPTURE.

The subject of the thread is Conditional Immortality based upon the Biblically stated mortality of the human spirit.

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL.

“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
- 1 Tim 6:16

Which part of "who alone is immortal" does the reader not understand?

Immortality is NOT a natural property of man.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

If man is mortal then his spirit is destroyed at death - annihilated.

Unless that man is saved (derived immortality), his destiny is destruction. Unless a man is born again he cannot exist for long beyond physical death - not beyond the Final Judgment.

Again the challenge is repeated.....prove the Bible wrong ....
that only God is immortal
and that man is mortal.

Use the Bible to do it.

The core issue here is current acceptance of the false doctrine of human immortality.

If the reader is concerned about divine judgment, what then is destruction of the spirit if not the perfect and final elimination of the wicked? Heaven and earth are thus scoured of sin for all time that the age of holiness may begin.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<CL>Many good responses here, but the basic fall back position seems to focus upon hell or gehenna whatever spelling and/or definition one may wish to employ.
Again.....
The doctrine of hell is predicated upon the immortality of the human spirit. If the human spirit cannot be demonstrated to be immortal, then a logical eternal punishment cannot be doctrinally justified.
The human spirit is mortal.
Descriptions of the afterlife are irrelevant to prove immortality. These descriptions insert conclusions before the proofs as a sort of self-fulfilling or self-proving doctrine. The Bible does not say the spirit of man is immortal.
Chapter and verse, please, not indirect references....<end>

end

…..Please spare us the usual automatonic denial "It's figurative." Remember "Chapter and verse, please, not indirect references." Don't demand of others what you cannot or will not provide yourself.
.....In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In the NT Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Ron Gurley]

Refute Post #5 please... which proves Man's:
1. mortality of the Body/Soul combo
2. the immortality of the Spirit

Luke 23:46...on the cross
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into Your hands I commit My (IMMORTAL) spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (MORTAL Body / Soul combo bled to death)

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (mortal Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the (immortal) SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)...for judgment
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

1 Tim. 6 (NASB)
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time
—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, >>whom no man has seen or can see<<.
To Him (ONLY) be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Genesis 6
3 Then the Lord said,
“My Spirit shall not strive with man ('S SPIRIT) forever, because he also is flesh (+SPIRIT);
nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (in the flesh housing SPIRIT)

 

[Choir Loft]

I think much of the interpretations of the doctrines of "hell" are wrong.

However, I do believe (and historically Christians from the time of the Apostles have taught) that every soul will be resurrected (reunited with the body) and will continue on.

The state in which they experience eternity has more to do with they themselves - whether they respond to God with love (He loves all of His creation - God's very nature is agape-love) or whether they resist Him and hate Him, in which case His presence and love have the experience of a consuming fire.

Some have hoped even that the suffering they experience as a result of perverting their nature could be didactic and they might even (at least some) be reconciled ultimately, but that is a speculation we can't possibly know and have no right to expect.

Here is wisdom concurrent with Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection of the entire body and spirit. A person is a soul, not spirit alone. A soul is fully mind, fully body, and fully spirit. Resurrection implies that the whole soul is brought forth; for the righteousness unto everlasting blessedness and for the wicked unto final destruction.

Nowhere does the Bible say that the wicked are given a glorified body so as to endure the hardships of never-ending torture. They are destroyed. Immortality is therefore conditional upon accepting God's immortal life in Christ Jesus.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Choir Loft]

Refute Post #5 please... which proves Man's:
1. mortality of the Body/Soul combo
2. the immortality of the Spirit

Luke 23:46...on the cross
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into Your hands I commit My (IMMORTAL) spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (MORTAL Body / Soul combo bled to death)

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (mortal Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the (immortal) SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)...for judgment
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

1 Tim. 6 (NASB)
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time
—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, >>whom no man has seen or can see<<.
To Him (ONLY) be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Genesis 6
3 Then the Lord said,
“My Spirit shall not strive with man ('S SPIRIT) forever, because he also is flesh (+SPIRIT);
nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (in the flesh housing SPIRIT)

The quoted post above attempts to make its point BY EDITING WORDS INTO SCRIPTURE so as to justify it's own error and thereby proving God a liar and His Word a myth. The tactic is referred to as 'the straw man fallacy'. Create a hypothetical statement or alter an existing one - and then use it to attack God's honest truth. In other words, a lie is created to justify a lie.

What Biblical character is very good at doing that sort of thing?

I'm not accusing anyone of being in league with the tempter - just that they are paying too much attention to it's hypnotic suggestions. It's Genesis 3 all over again.

In Post #14 I quoted scripture which says;

ONLY GOD is immortal. (1 Tim 6:16)
Man is mortal. (Genesis 6:3)

You cannot prove the Word of God wrong by adding your own words to it, by references to Catholic/pagan concepts of purgatory or by justifying the Platonic concept of that which lies beyond the river Styx or even by misapplying the Hebrew ideology of sheol. The only result of that sort of approach is to create confusion and to justify a lie. Learn the lesson of Genesis 3.

Do NOT rewrite the Bible to prove a point of pagan myth.

In doing so, one furthers the myth and makes the gospel an inconsistent joke. Have you not heard the laughter of those who despise Post Modern Christian thought? This is why!!! The idea of the immortality of man is utterly unBiblical and based upon stories that even the ancients doubted.

When the mortal spirit of man returns to God who gave it, what happens?
it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Heb 9:27

Judgment follows the death of mortal man. The righteous are resurrected as a complete body and spirit. The righteous proceed to blessedness. The wicked are destroyed along with all their sinful deeds.

No one, certainly not me, is suggesting there isn't a provision for recompense of evil by God. The Bible says the wicked are destroyed entirely. They are not subjected to everlasting torture. In that sense, hell doesn't exist.

References to hell are misapplied due to traditional Roman Catholic ideology, which even Pope Francis is beginning to admit is wrong. Why?

Sheol wasn't hell and it wasn't a form of purgatory. Catholics adopted the idea of purgatory as well as hell from the Greeks (Plato, actually) not the Hebrew understanding of sheol.

When Jesus arose from His own grave, a dramatic demonstration of the ending of sheol was performed in the streets of Jerusalem. The gospels state many Jews saw it and realized some great change had happened in their midst with regard to their understanding of sheol. NO CHRISTIAN SERMON on Easter Sunday acknowledges this event, yet it is just as much a part of the gospel story of resurrection as that of the person of Jesus. Therefore any current discussion utilizing sheol as justification for the immorality of man is baseless and opposed to consistent application of scripture.

Over and over again, rebuttals DO NOT disprove the assertion of the Bible - that ONLY God is immortal and that man is mortal. Instead rebuttals always run back to hell, the home of that which accused God of lying in the first place.

GENESIS 3

God told Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. On that day they would die (verse 3). Did God lie about mortality? No, but the tempter did. Who then shall we believe, God or the tempter?

When Eve encountered the tempter, the tempter told her she would not die - that she would remain immortal even if she sinned against God. Did the tempter tell the truth and did God lie? Who shall we believe God or the tempter?

The issue here is the mortality of man and the immortality of God. If we accept that man has a finite existence, then we must admit to his or her ultimate destruction - body & spirit. The Bible says so.

BUT MAN WOULD RATHER BELIEVE THE TEMPTER and assume that he retains immortality despite his sin and despite God telling him he'd die.

NO ONE can argue the immortality of man by justifying the words of the tempter. Hell is an immortal existence albeit a hideous one. The Bible says the wicked will be destroyed - annihilated. The existence of the sinner and the sin will be eradicated permanently.

...unless of course certain people love sin and want to see some aspect of it to continue...

Adam & Eve doubted God and the result was the fall of man from grace. It seems that the tendency to believe the lies of the tempter persist.

WHERE WILL IT END?

God is a monstrous liar after all......the father of unjust merciless torment for all time and beyond time.......if the idea of human immortality is to be accepted.

The world likes the idea too and has adapted it to suggest that one can sin all the days of one's life and somehow gain heaven anyway by means of a second chance or appeal to mercy (which that person rejected all the days of his or her life on earth).

Is God just?
Or is God a fool with no sense of morality or responsibility and who acts to accommodate human attitudes of self-justification?

God is just, if the mortality of man is accepted.
God is a fool, if He can't or won't do anything permanent about sin either here or hereafter.

The ideology of the immortality of man allows sin to continue even in hell.
The ideology of the mortality of man rids the universe of it.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here is wisdom concurrent with Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection of the entire body and spirit. A person is a soul, not spirit alone. A soul is fully mind, fully body, and fully spirit. Resurrection implies that the whole soul is brought forth; for the righteousness unto everlasting blessedness and for the wicked unto final destruction.

Nowhere does the Bible say that the wicked are given a glorified body so as to endure the hardships of never-ending torture. They are destroyed. Immortality is therefore conditional upon accepting God's immortal life in Christ Jesus.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your beliefs.

As to soul/mind/heart/spirit - that's a rather complicated distinction I don't have time to explore here. I think it is enough for our purposes to say that humans consist of both the material body and the immaterial soul/spirit - both of them are "me" and I am not complete without either.

As to the Resurrection of bodies, Scripture does indicate that all will be resurrected in order to be judged - so yes, everyone. That has always been the understanding of Christianity from the early days.

I figured other parts of my post would be more controversial to someone than that part.

Peace to you.