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Featured The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Achilles6129, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    A self published book by an amateur with no, zero, none stated or demonstrated any expertise in Hebrew or Greek. Just because it is written in an anonymous book that does not prove it is correct. Here is how you provide scriptural evidence to support an argument. From my list of 21
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than th earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed then it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” All Bible scholars agree that “Aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” Paul uses “aidios” and “aionios” synonymously and interchangeably.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The "book" you refer is an article that contains quotes from language authorities who are not "amateurs" as yourself. So by the same standard you judge, why should anyone take your post as anything but that from another "amateur"?

    As for Romans 1,16 & 2 Cor., i've already answered this several times in the past few days. Still no response from you re Romans. Or this:

    I asked someone who knows some Greek. He said in reply to your comment:

    "There is no such thing as a Greek phrase that is translated as "king of." It is not "king" that needs to be in the genitive; it is "ages." AND IT IS."

    "The Greek for "of the ages" is "των αιωνιον" ( in English characters "tōn aiōnion"). Both "tōn" (the) and "aiōnion" (ages) are in the genitive case, and they are plural. Therefore the translation is "of the ages." "

    "The preceding Greek words are "τω δε βασιλει" (tō de basilei). "de" is a little word that always takes second place in a Greek sentence. It is sometimes translated as "and" and sometimes as "but" and sometimes as "now." Not "now" in the sense of time, but when introducing a sentence. For example, "Now this is what I think." The word "tō" (the) and "basilei" (king) are in the dative case, and are singular. Therefore the meaning is "to the king." Thus "to the king of the ages" is a correct translation."

    One of the two of you has no clue about the Greek or what he is talking about. I'm betting it's you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  3. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    I have come to the conclusion as well.
    It's interesting that in many religions "ultimate knowledge" is the goal or even knowledge above humanity's capacity but in the Scriptures we see that there are mysteries and that we are not equal to God in knowledge.

    We may know what some of the mysteries are but as far as understanding them, well; "For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us."
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I don't give my unsupported opinion. I don't present myself as an expert. I quote directly from grammars, lexicons, etc. NOT second hand quotes from books by amateurs.
    Your responses are your own unsupported opinion influenced by a universalist agenda. My continued responses are for others who might read this forum so they can have more than one side of the discussion
    I don't trust anonymous acquaintances you claim "know some Greek." I trust scholars such as my first Greek professor Dr Roger Omanson one of the translators of the NIV and Dr Dan Wallace, who has taught graduate level Greek for 30+ years the senior editor of the NET.
    The rest of your post will be dismissed based on this quote from my Greek grammar. "The genitive case is used to express the possessive case, or 'of' relationship." p. 10, R.A. Martin, An Introduction to New Testament Greek, Union-Hoermann Press, Dubuque IA, 1978 .
    In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated "king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

    Of course you would presume that your acquaintance, whom you claim knows Greek, is right because you have consistently demonstrated that you only consult sources which support your universalist assumptions/presuppositions.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In this case you are merely giving your assumptions & your opinion of how you think the grammar should be applied.




    You are the foil in this drama for the purpose of the truth going forth to the glory of God. Have been for some time. Keep up the good work. For the Endless Infernalist boys club agenda.



    And yet you haven't quoted anything from them that says "King of the ages" is grammatically incorrect. Or that "King of the ages" is not the literal translation (1 Tim.1:17). You merely - assume - that without knowing. It is nothing but a guess with no (zero, none, nada) evidence whatsoever from the sources you cite. You have provided - nothing - that says they back your position. For all we know, and i suspect this is in fact the truth, they totally reject your position.



    Nothing there says "King of the ages" is not the literal translation or grammatically incorrect.



    This is just your amateur opinion. You've failed to produce a single accredited source that supports it. OTOH i provided 7 translations that say "King of the ages". So the score remains:

    ClementofA: 7
    DerAlter: 0

    In additions to all the translations i gave you, i'll add this:

    "Eternal.—More accurately rendered, (to the King) of the ages. The King of the Ages is the sovereign dispenser and disposer of the ages of the world. There is no reference at all here to the Gnostic æons." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    "A literal translation of the passage would be, "To the King of ages, who is immortal," etc. The meaning of this expression - "the King of ages" - βασιλει τὼν αἰώνων basilei tōn aiōnōn - is, that he is a king who rules throughout all ages. This does not mean that he himself lives for ever, but that his dominion extends over all ages or generations. The rule of earthly monarchs does not extend into successive ages; his does. Their reign is temporary; his is enduring, and continues as one generation after another passes on, and thus embraces them all." Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    "the King, eternal—literally, "King of the (eternal) ages." The Septuagint translates Ex 15:18, "The Lord shall reign for ages and beyond them." " Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    "...he is the everlasting King, or the King of ages...he is the "King of ages", as the phrase may be rendered, and so his kingdom is called , "the kingdom of all ages", Psalm 145:13 and which endures throughout all generations; and this distinguishes him from all other kings. Scarce any king ever reigned an age...No regard is here had, as some have thought, to the Aeones of the Gnostics and Valentinians; but rather the apostle adopts a phrase into his doxology, frequently used by the Jews in their prayers, many of which begin after this manner,

    "blessed art thou, O Lord our God, "the king of the age, or world", &c.

    and , "Lord of all ages, or worlds", &c. (p)."

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    "It is incorrect to take αἰῶνες as equivalent to “eternity,” and translate: “to the king eternal” (de Wette, but tentatively; Hofmann: “the king who is for ever and without end”),[72] for αἰῶνες never has that meaning in itself....[72] Wiesinger explains it: “He is a king of the aeons, which together give the idea of eternity, just as His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom.” Meyer's NT Commentary

    "The doxology flows from a sense of grace.—Βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων, to the King of œons or ages [eternal])" Bengel's Gnomen

    King eternal (βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων)
    Lit. the king of the ages. Only here and Revelation 15:3.
    Vincent's Word Studies

    1 Timothy 1:17 Commentaries: Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.



    That is simply - false.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  6. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Wow. 82 pages and we still have not figured this thing out.
    ....what a quandary
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    LOL...and many others threads here of comparable length on the same topic...going back at least 15 years.

    It came to me, if i recall, between 3 or 4 decades ago. Though back then i only had a small fraction of the knowledge i do now on the subject.
     
  8. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Try going back to the early church fathers and their debates.
    It is very eye-opening. They were as confuzzled as we are today.
    Most people say the bible interprets the bible and the interpretation is easy, yet there are hundreds and thousands of varying interpretations.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One thing you can count on. There will be many people very surprised, even shocked, at what they learn hereafter.

    In Noah's day there were not many who had the truth.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your count is wrong! ASV ISV NIrV, NIV, NET 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal,
    Paul considered αἰώνιος/aionios and ἀΐ́διος/aidios to be synonymous.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” There is no disagreement among scholars that “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” Paul used both words αἰώνιος/aionios and ἀΐ́διος/aidios synonymously and interchangeably.I guess it does not matter what all those uni "scholars" say.
    .
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing there supports your opinions that:

    1. "King of the ages" is not the literal translation (1 Tim.1:17).

    2. "King of the ages" is grammatically incorrect.

    OTOH i provided 7 translations that say "King of the ages". So the score remains:

    ClementofA: 7
    DerAlter: 0


    In additions to all the translations i gave you, i'll add these 7 sources that oppose your conclusions:

    "Eternal.—More accurately rendered, (to the King) of the ages. The King of the Ages is the sovereign dispenser and disposer of the ages of the world. There is no reference at all here to the Gnostic æons." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    "A literal translation of the passage would be, "To the King of ages, who is immortal," etc. The meaning of this expression - "the King of ages" - βασιλει τὼν αἰώνων basilei tōn aiōnōn - is, that he is a king who rules throughout all ages. This does not mean that he himself lives for ever, but that his dominion extends over all ages or generations. The rule of earthly monarchs does not extend into successive ages; his does. Their reign is temporary; his is enduring, and continues as one generation after another passes on, and thus embraces them all." Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    "the King, eternal—literally, "King of the (eternal) ages." The Septuagint translates Ex 15:18, "The Lord shall reign for ages and beyond them." " Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    "...he is the everlasting King, or the King of ages...he is the "King of ages", as the phrase may be rendered, and so his kingdom is called , "the kingdom of all ages", Psalm 145:13 and which endures throughout all generations; and this distinguishes him from all other kings. Scarce any king ever reigned an age...No regard is here had, as some have thought, to the Aeones of the Gnostics and Valentinians; but rather the apostle adopts a phrase into his doxology, frequently used by the Jews in their prayers, many of which begin after this manner,

    "blessed art thou, O Lord our God, "the king of the age, or world", &c.

    and , "Lord of all ages, or worlds", &c. (p)."

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    "It is incorrect to take αἰῶνες as equivalent to “eternity,” and translate: “to the king eternal” (de Wette, but tentatively; Hofmann: “the king who is for ever and without end”),[72] for αἰῶνες never has that meaning in itself....[72] Wiesinger explains it: “He is a king of the aeons, which together give the idea of eternity, just as His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom.” Meyer's NT Commentary

    "The doxology flows from a sense of grace.—Βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων, to the King of œons or ages [eternal])" Bengel's Gnomen

    King eternal (βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων)
    Lit. the king of the ages. Only here and Revelation 15:3.
    Vincent's Word Studies

    1 Timothy 1:17 Commentaries: Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    The updated score now is:

    ClementofA: 14
    DerAlter: 0

    The rest of your post was off topic, deleted. Also already addressed before & you have never answered my reply. Yet keep spamming the same thing repeatedly.


    The Evangelical Universalist: Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism
    The Evangelical Universalist: Will Hitler be Saved?
    The Evangelical Universalist: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life
    The Evangelical Universalist: N. T. Wright on Hell and Universalism
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Eternal "torment", and that is internal and self imposed.

    What has more impact....somebody stabs you with a knife
    or you cheat on your spouse to get even with them for some
    trivial matter?
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Self-imposed torment, not torture.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You have now avoided and ignored Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26 about 5 times.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” There is no disagreement among scholars that “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” Paul used both words αἰώνιος/aionios and ἀΐ́διος/aidios synonymously and interchangeably.
    I guess it does not matter what all those uni "scholars" say.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As i told you several times, it was already addressed. Look here:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

    and here:


    Where did Paul say they are "interchangable"?

    Many words are applied to God. That doesn't make them all synonymous with each other.

    Context. Romans 1 is speaking about God's attributes. OTOH, Romans 16 refers to times long ago, eonian times past. Context, context, context.

    according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, (Rom.16:25b, NASB)
    but has now been brought fully to light, and by the command of the God of the Ages (Rom.16:26a, WEY)

    Romans 16:25-26 uses aionios twice. Do you suppose one time it means eternal & the other time it doesn't. Or that it consistently relates to an eon or eons, duration which is often very long, eras, epochs, ages.

    of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God (Rom.16:25b-26a, CLV)

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than
    endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    The Greek text is on p.275ff. The English translation follows it.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

    Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:

    "He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

    The LXX has aionios[166] for olam there in Hab.3:6.

    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

    "Yes, there are some translators who render the phrase "king eternal" but that's not because of the grammar. That's because they think "of the ages" is tantamount to "eternal." "

    "The following versions have "to the king of the ages":
    Darby, Diaglot, Douay, EMTV, ESV, LEB, Philips, Rotherham, RSV, Wey, and YLT."

    "Does your correspondent think that none of the translators of these versions know Greek?"

    "Also in all 26 occurrences of "king of" in the New Testament NOT ONE of them have "king" in the genitive case. I checked it out."

    One of the two of you has no clue about the Greek or what he is talking about. I'm betting it's you.
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell
    Well if that's what the Bible says, who am I to argue.....
     
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  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Eternal - because time does not exist there
    Torment - becasue you regret you actions. Self torment is your punishment.
    There is no wine in Hell to fog your brain.
     
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  19. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Der Alter, you're a glutton for punishment! Thus far, you've made a very excellent and unrefuted case for your views, despite the unpleasant and disrespectful rhetoric of ClementofA. Well done. I've greatly appreciated your efforts in going into the minutiae of Scripture and sussing out its meaning. Thanks for defending an essential, though difficult, doctrine of the Christian faith!
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Time does not exist there. We get that.
     
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