The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

SBC said:

You quote scripture but the scripture you quote does not support your contention that all shall be saved. And BTW - that fact was addressed, not ignored.

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Where did he address it?

Der Alter said:

Ooops someone made a mistake here wrote "for ever and ever" instead of "to the ages of the ages." For most, if not all, heterodox religious groups when they say things like "deceptive translations" what they really mean is a translation which disproves their false beliefs.

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What "group" are you referring to? The - doctrine (not "group") - of universalism is believed by some Christians in many church denominations, e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentecostal, & many others. It may even be a majority church belief, making it orthodox, & making endless torments the "heterodox" view.

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.


(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..."

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3.) "St. Jerome (342-420), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." "The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

Since I am new my prior comment went into moderation and thus when approved is several pages back. I am reporting for consideration.

Hell – What is it?
• (In the KJV this word occurs in O. T. Scriptures, cited below, and is the translation of the Hebrew word "sheol," which signifies the unseen state)
• In the RSV of O. T. it appears only in
Isaiah 5:14 ; Isaiah 14:9 Isaiah 14:15 ; Isaiah 28:15 Isaiah 28:18 ; 57:9 ; Ezekiel 31:16 Ezekiel 31:17 ; Ezekiel 32:21 Ezekiel 32:27 ; Amos 9:2 ; Jonah 2:2 ; Habakkuk 2:5
• In the RSV, "sheol" is translated "lowest pit"
Deuteronomy 32:22 ; Psalms 86:13
• And it is translated "pit" in
Psalms 55:15
• In the RSV the word "Sheol" itself occurs in the following scriptures
2 Samuel 22:6 ; Job 11:8 ; 26:6 ; Psalms 9:17 ; 16:10 ; 18:5 ; 116:3 ; 139:8 ; Proverbs 5:5 ; 7:27 ; 9:18 ;Proverbs 15:11 Proverbs 15:24 ; 23:14 ; 27:20
• "Sheol" is translated "grave" in KJV in
Genesis 37:35 ; 42:38 ; Genesis 44:29 Genesis 44:31 ; 1 Samuel 2:6 ; 1 Kings 2:6 ; 9 ; Job 7:9 ; 14:13 ; 17:13 ;21:13 ; 24:19 ; Psalms 6:5 ; 30:3 ; 31:17 ; Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:15 ; 88:3 ; 89:48 ; 141:7 ; Proverbs 1:12 ;30:16 ; Ecclesiastes 9:10 ; Solomon 8:6 ; Hosea 13:14
• In the RSV the Greek word "gehenna" is translated "hell" in the following scriptures
Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 ; James 3:6
• The RSV has introduced "Hades," the word found in the Greek text, which signifies the unseen world, in the following scriptures
Matthew 11:23 ; 16:18 ; Luke 10:15 ; 16:23 ; Acts 2:27 Acts 2:31 ; Revelation 1:18 ; 6:8 ; Revelation 20:13; Revelation 20:14

In reading the above texts it would seem that hell is either the Grave (sheol or hades) or Gehenna (unquenchable fire).

So if Hell can also mean the place of unquenchable fire, when does that occur?

Hell – When is it?

There are many verses showing that the final event for the wicked is hellfire but there are very few that show the timeline of when. The best timeline can be found in Rev 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So from these verses we see those who were dead but resurrected at Christ’s coming. This is called the “First Resurrection”. If there was a first then there must be a second. From verse 5 says the rest of the dead (the wicked) did not live again for 1000 years. (The 1000 years is addressed in Rev 20:1-3)

So after the 1000 years we have a second resurrection. What happens after this resurrection is described in Rev 20:7-10

Three other texts support the 2 resurrections. John 5:28-29 says "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION". And again in Luke 14:14 "And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST" implying a resurrection of the unjust. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST.

This is what happens to “the rest of the dead”

Rev 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Notice: The wicked are NOT burning in hell until AFTER the resurrection. There is no one being tortured in hell today. It is not until after the 1000 years and the wicked dead raised and surround the New Jerusalem then fire comes down from God and DEVOURS them.

Matthew 13:39-42 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the END OF THE AGE, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THIS AGE. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Job 21:30,32 30 For the wicked are RESERVED for the day of doom; They shall be BROUGHT OUT on the day of wrath. 32 Yet he shall be brought to the grave, And a VIGIL kept over the tomb.

2 Peter 2:9 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE THE UNJUST UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO SHALL JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom;

Daniel 1:1-2 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a Time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The wicked do not awaken until after Christ has delivered His people. They awake to everlasting contempt. Thus they were not experiencing everlasting contempt in the grave.

So the timeline looks like this.
1. Christ returns
2. Dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first
3. The living are then caught up to meet with Christ in the air
4. The devil is bound 1000 years on earth
5. During that 1000 years all the righteous reign with Christ
6. The wicked dead are resurrected
7. They are judged Rev 20:11-12
8. They are cast into the lake of fire

Hell – Where is Hell located?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the EARTH which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Notice the heavens and earth are reserved for fire!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the EARTH and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Again the heavens pass away and the earth melts

Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a NEW EARTH filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the FIRST EARTH had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

The first earth has passed away and God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth

Psalms 46 4 There is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God,
The holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved;
God shall help her, just at the break of dawn.
6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved;
He uttered His voice, the earth melted.

Ps 46:6 parallels Rev 20:7-10

Hell – How long will it last?

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life.

Ez 18:4 "The soul that sinneth, it SHALL DIE."

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth DEATH.

Notice the wages is death not eternal life of torment.

1 John 3:15 "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Will the murderers have death or eternal life of suffering?

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Many are troubled over the expression, "everlasting punishment," but notice that it does not say "everlasting punishing."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Obadiah 1:15,16 “For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. 16 For as you drank on My holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

If the penalty for sin is everlasting life of torment, did Jesus pay this penalty? He did die (the wages of sin is death) but if the wages of sin is everlasting torment then He failed in that regard and did not pay the full penalty.

Ez 28:13-19 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

Hell – What about Eternal Fire, Worm dieth not, unquenchable fire, Forever and ever?

Jude 6-8 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth AS AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

Question: Are they still burning or did the fire go out? Simply the results of the fire (punishment) is eternal but the punishing is not.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Notice what these texts say – The chaff is burnt up. It is gone. It is burned by a fire that cannot be put out until all is burned up. There is another text which supports this view.

In light of the above, this text in Mark 9:43 will also follow the same logic. "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.
Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm.

In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture of total destruction.

Isaiah 34: 5-10 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

Is Edom still burning? Do we still see its smoke ascending? Is there a section of the earth that men cannot pass through?

This passage, in which God predicts that Edom will be burned by fire forever, has four verbal parallels to Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 as well as the thematic parallel of judgment. The fact that Isaiah 34:9, 10 is the only passage in the Bible with this many parallels to the Revelation passages indicates that the author of Revelation would have us interpret “forever and ever,” when referring to the torment of the wicked, in the context of God’s judgment on Edom.

Hell – What does it say about God?

The bible says

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God IS LOVE.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Romans 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 7:11 God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.
Isaiah 30:18 [ God Will Be Gracious ] Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.

Isaiah 13:11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Job 37:23 As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Exodus 34:6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,

Deuteronomy 4:31 (for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

Nehemiah 9:17 They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God, Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them.

Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

How do we reconcile Love, Justice and Mercy with Hell? If God is just then those who break the law are deserving of death, for the wages of sin is death. The bible also says "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.

As God is Just He will punish according to our works. And from Luke it seems that “the punishment will fit the crime”. So now comes the dilemma in Love, Mercy and Justice in regards to Hell.

1. If God is Love then how can he burn a person forever? Would that be more like a sadistic god rather than a Loving God?
2. If God is merciful then where is the mercy on a person who for a few years is against God but then will be tormented by fire for trillions upon trillions of years and after that they have only just begun. Would this be a God of Love and Mercy? Would His subjects worship Him in Love or Fear? What if it was your son, daughter, husband, wife, father or mother in Hell and you were in heaven. Would you be comfortable with them being tortured forever? How can God wipe away every tear if we know what is happening to those we loved but rejected God?
3. If God is Just, then how does the punishment fit the crime? Unending torture for a few years does not sound just. And how does Luke 12:47 & 48 fit into this? Let’s assume that Esau did not repent and thus would be in Hell and then Hitler also went there. Now we know Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths and we do not see in the bible that Esau killed millions. Yet according to some you are in Hell the minute you die and thus Esau would seem to have a longer sentence than Hitler or to those who say all enter Hell at the same time both Esau and Hitler get the same punishment which also does not fit Luke. Where is the justice?

The bible says “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. Luke 9:56. "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” Isaiah 28:21.

So what is the solution? God is Love. He cares and loves all His creation. He Loves both Satan and his angels and those of the human race who turned against Him as He is Father of all, both the Just and the Unjust. He cannot let wicked go on forever as that will not satisfy His being Just. He must deliver justice as the wages of sin is death. At the same time these are His children and He is merciful. To punish forever is not merciful. But sin must be eradicated from the universe.

In Hebrews Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might DESTROY him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In Ezekiel 28:13-19 the bible says “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought FIRE out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

This passage is referring to Lucifer/Satan as he was the covering cherub. It says that Satan will be BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER. Here we see a Loving God being forced to kill His child to save His other children. By this act, God is Love, in that He saved His children that loved Him from the evil from the child that rebelled. God is Just in that He punished the guilty. God is merciful in that He did not make a punishment go on forever is a sadistic manner.

So if God did this for Lucifer, what does the bible say about what will happen to wicked men?

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

The same wording is used as was applied to Satan. The wicked were BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE.

In summary, death in Hell satisfies a Loving God who is also Just and Merciful whereas eternal torment is not Loving, Merciful or Just.

Shempster said:

Here is another angle to consider:
If you were born into a Christian household or country, you will most likely be a Christian.
If you were born into a Muslim household or country, you'll likely be a Muslim.
The same goes for a Buddhist household, a Jehova's witness or any other religion out there.

So is our family/country we are born in completely random? Are some/most destined for eternal torture because they were born into a particular area and religion that they did not choose?
This is where the "free will" jargon gets all gummed up. Are we really free to choose?

Click to expand...

Abram was born a Hebrew. Abram's father adopted the ways of idolatry. Abram departed from his fathers house, and continued in the Way of God, as he taught his offspring, and some adhered to Gods Way, and some didn't. His offspring became blessed as twelve tribes of Israel, with lands. Some of them continued in Gods Way, some didn't.

Ishmael was born a Hebrew. Ismael departed his father (Abram's) household. Ishmael
also was blessed with twelve offspring, ie Princes, with lands. Descending down, one, tried to carry on with Gods Way, via hearing some, scribes writing some, and later what was written and filled in by their understanding, has become Islam, with bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian inclusions in their texts.

All are free to hear, and choose. All have already chosen. The choice is known to God, and He has prepared accordingly. Men born of the earth, do not remember their choices, they discover it during their bodily life ON the earth, then choose it.

Everything ON earth has already been. Men do not remember, what WAS. Nor do men remember what WILL BE. Men during their earthly life discover what WAS, by reading and hearing. The same also discover what WILL BE, by reading and hearing.

Ecc 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
[11] There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

This is where the "free will" jargon gets all gummed up. Are we really free to choose?

Click to expand...

We already have.

Perhaps you could comprehend an analogy -
A screen-play write writes a script - he is the author, he knows every character and what that character will say, look like, think, do...or not.
"actors" clamor to secure "playing certain characters".
Some characters are good, some are wicked.
But yet the "actor" chooses which character they want to be.
YOU, as the bystander, can become aware of what is happening, by reading the "news", of a new big-screen movie to be revealed, even who the characters are.
BUT, you do not actually SEE it until later.
AND, you do not KNOW the outcome, until later.

God is the AUTHOR. We are the Characters, who chose, which part we wanted to be -
The "good" guy or the "wicked" guy.
You are not seeing the results of the choices on a big-screen, but rather in real time, during the existence of your individual time, in your individual LIFE (blood) bodily life ON earth.
YOU, can hear and read of other individuals own bodily LIFE (blood), but you were NOT THERE to SEE it. YOU can hear and read of other individuals own OUTCOMES, but you WAIT to SEE IT. You can only hear and read and see, in the time NOW, during YOUR individual life ON earth, and the EFFECTS NOW, of what you already chose.

John 14
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

Abram was born a Hebrew. Abram's father adopted the ways of idolatry. Abram departed from his fathers house, and continued in the Way of God, as he taught his offspring, and some adhered to Gods Way, and some didn't. His offspring became blessed as twelve tribes of Israel, with lands. Some of them continued in Gods Way, some didn't.

Ishmael was born a Hebrew. Ismael departed his father (Abram's) household. Ishmael
also was blessed with twelve offspring, ie Princes, with lands. Descending down, one, tried to carry on with Gods Way, via hearing some, scribes writing some, and later what was written and filled in by their understanding, has become Islam, with bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian inclusions in their texts.

All are free to hear, and choose. All have already chosen. The choice is known to God, and He has prepared accordingly. Men born of the earth, do not remember their choices, they discover it during their bodily life ON the earth, then choose it.

Everything ON earth has already been. Men do not remember, what WAS. Nor do men remember what WILL BE. Men during their earthly life discover what WAS, by reading and hearing. The same also discover what WILL BE, by reading and hearing.

Ecc 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
[11] There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.



We already have.

Perhaps you could comprehend an analogy -
A screen-play write writes a script - he is the author, he knows every character and what that character will say, look like, think, do...or not.
"actors" clamor to secure "playing certain characters".
Some characters are good, some are wicked.
But yet the "actor" chooses which character they want to be.
YOU, as the bystander, can become aware of what is happening, by reading the "news", of a new big-screen movie to be revealed, even who the characters are.
BUT, you do not actually SEE it until later.
AND, you do not KNOW the outcome, until later.

God is the AUTHOR. We are the Characters, who chose, which part we wanted to be -
The "good" guy or the "wicked" guy.
You are not seeing the results of the choices on a big-screen, but rather in real time, during the existence of your individual time, in your individual LIFE (blood) bodily life ON earth.
YOU, can hear and read of other individuals own bodily LIFE (blood), but you were NOT THERE to SEE it. YOU can hear and read of other individuals own OUTCOMES, but you WAIT to SEE IT. You can only hear and read and see, in the time NOW, during YOUR individual life ON earth, and the EFFECTS NOW, of what you already chose.

John 14
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

Your answer was the reason for bringing up such questions.
I hope a few others get what you just said.

Bless up

rlneub said:

In summary, death in Hell satisfies a Loving God who is also Just and Merciful whereas eternal torment is not Loving, Merciful or Just.

Click to expand...

All body's and souls of men are created by God. When a man's body and soul rejects God, stands against God, it is at His pleasure He departs life out of those body's, those soul's and forever purify them in fire.

The fact is eternal purification, is JUST.
Some men choose eternal purification, BY Gods Spirit.
Some men choose eternal purification, BY Fire.

The fact is eternal purification, BY Gods Spirit, is one who has eternal life, BY Gods Seed; and the same SHALL have "LIFE" in them forever, according to Gods Grace.

The fact is eternal purification, BY Fire, is one who has NOT eternal life, BY Gods Seed; and the same SHALL have "LIFE" departed from them forever, according to God's Mercy.

God Bless,
SBC

ClementofA said:

What "group" are you referring to? The - doctrine (not "group") - of universalism is believed by some Christians in many church denominations, e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentecostal, & many others. It may even be a majority church belief, making it orthodox, & making endless torments the "heterodox" view. * * *

Click to expand...

I do not read or respond to copy/paste arguments. By heterodox religious groups I mean any number of people who hold a heterodox view whether organized or scattered all over.

Major1 said:

Your words from #1419..........
"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)

Click to expand...

how long is the torment in this passage? It isn't until verse 11 that we see that they will have no rest...now, last time I checked, if I "witness" and even happening, it is happening in my presence but I don't have to stay and watch the whole ordeal play out to have witnessed what happened.[/quote] wait, your upset and claiming that I don't know that forever and forever means forever because I pointed out that for something to be happening in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb does NOT mean that they are right there in the midst of it but rather that they are witnessing it....how odd that you would inflate my simple assertion into something offence to my opinions.

The whole post response was pointing out that "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" simply means they are witness to it...last time I checked the Lamb was eternal so I am not sure how you could draw from that that I don't know what forever and forever means...you have a very strange reading habit of reading into things what is not there nor suggested nor intended it would appear and it is harmful to others and to communication.

So please explain how the quote "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" means that they are there torturing people rather than that they are there witnessing the event...I'm really anxious for you to address my comments not your fictitious version of what I said.

It seems to me that you are in fact agrreing with the idea of Universalism and are in fact discounting the ETERNAL torment of the lost in the Lake of Fire.

Click to expand...

so how pray tell is saying that it is talking bout them witnessing the event arguing for universalism or lack of eternal torment? Seriously where are you getting that notion? I don't get it...I can witness something without trying to pretend it didn't happen...in fact, most of the time witnessing an event is equivalent to defending it's existence not the other way around. So if you want me to believe that you have grounds to stand on you need to show how the idea that an event is witnessed is somehow equivalent to saying it doesn't exist. wow! I really seems like you have no idea how to read for comprehension...your response will help to clarify that.

You said......."How long is the torment in this passage?"

Forgive me but that seems to say you do not accept the torment of the lost.

Click to expand...

A question...based on another persons assertion that it is not eternal torment...iow's I pointed out with a question that the passage says it is eternal...how does pointing that out equal something that I don't believe? You know if you would take time to read for comprehension and ask for clarification of anything you aren't sure about it would go a long way. I have said and always have said that forever means just that. It is an eternal punishment...no clue how you could read into that anything else and feel justified to be rude about it but such is the nature of some posters...I would however suggest you learn a different technique than to reinvent what people say so that you can inflate your own position.

ClementofA said:

Who said that? I've supported my views with Scripture. Instead of dealing with Scriptures i've posted, you ignore them & keep posting misleading deceptive translations. And nonsense like that i've quoted above.


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Click to expand...

apparently this posters MO is to reinvent what others are saying...be encouraged to be patient and kind no matter how bad it gets.

ClementofA said:

Who said that? I've supported my views with Scripture. Instead of dealing with Scriptures i've posted, you ignore them & keep posting misleading deceptive translations. And nonsense like that i've quoted above.


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Click to expand...

Posting a Scripture and then explaining it the way you want, to make it say what you want instead of accepting as it is written does not make you correct my dear friend.

You just posted Rev. 5:13. HOW does that verse support your theology?

Shempster said:

Here is another angle to consider:
If you were born into a Christian household or country, you will most likely be a Christian.
If you were born into a Muslim household or country, you'll likely be a Muslim.
The same goes for a Buddhist household, a Jehova's witness or any other religion out there.

So is our family/country we are born in completely random? Are some/most destined for eternal torture because they were born into a particular area and religion that they did not choose?
This is where the "free will" jargon gets all gummed up. Are we really free to choose?

Click to expand...

My argument would be that there are lots and lots of people who break the "rule" of born into X therefore X...Like Pharaoh, we are still free to choose for ourselves no matter how God uses us. In fact, He has used many to reach their Buddhist, Muslim, etc. families and friends.

My husbands family were missionaries to Nigeria...there were barely any christians at one point in the area they were in, today the primary religious belief is christian, that didn't happen because we have no free will if born into another belief system.

Major1 said:

wait, your upset and claiming that I don't know that forever and forever means forever because I pointed out that for something to be happening in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb does NOT mean that they are right there in the midst of it but rather that they are witnessing it....how odd that you would inflate my simple assertion into something offence to my opinions.

Click to expand...

lol and yet the comment was presented in response to the highlighted portion of the post....why highlight it if you wanted others to focus on something else? Hint: usually highlighting something means it is the key point of the post...if you didn't understand that before I assume you will understand it now and use that appropriately so that more confusion does not happen.

The whole post response was pointing out that "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" simply means they are witness to it...last time I checked the Lamb was eternal so I am not sure how you could draw from that that I don't know what forever and forever means...you have a very strange reading habit of reading into things what is not there nor suggested nor intended it would appear and it is harmful to others and to communication.

So please explain how the quote "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" means that they are there torturing people rather than that they are there witnessing the event...I'm really anxious for you to address my comments not your fictitious version of what I said. so how pray tell is saying that it is talking bout them witnessing the event arguing for universalism or lack of eternal torment? Seriously where are you getting that notion? I don't get it...I can witness something without trying to pretend it didn't happen...in fact, most of the time witnessing an event is equivalent to defending it's existence not the other way around. So if you want me to believe that you have grounds to stand on you need to show how the idea that an event is witnessed is somehow equivalent to saying it doesn't exist. wow! I really seems like you have no idea how to read for comprehension...your response will help to clarify that. A question...based on another persons assertion that it is not eternal torment...iow's I pointed out with a question that the passage says it is eternal...how does pointing that out equal something that I don't believe? You know if you would take time to read for comprehension and ask for clarification of anything you aren't sure about it would go a long way. I have said and always have said that forever means just that. It is an eternal punishment...no clue how you could read into that anything else and feel justified to be rude about it but such is the nature of some posters...I would however suggest you learn a different technique than to reinvent what people say so that you can inflate your own position.

Click to expand...

I originally thought that there was an opportunity for us to have a discussion but now I see that with every single post you are someone who just can not speak with others civilly.[/quote] lol I am not the one reinventing what others are saying....and I am not the only one who recognizes it in your posts either.

Your method of communication is always rude, obnoxious and mead spirited.

Click to expand...

mead...lol anyway, I have been excessively kind to you and you still read into the posts what is not there...news flash...pointing out to a poster that they are not representing what was said is NOT rude but Love. (I Cor. 13 Love)

I wish you well in your life my friend.

See ya later rather than sooner.

Click to expand...

so, you concede you were wrong without ever actually admitting it formally...I'll take it since I get tired of wasting time clarifying what was said only to be insulted and misrepresented time and time again...may you discover the beauty of truth and the power of truth spoken in Love.

razzelflabben said:

The whole post response was pointing out that "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" simply means they are witness to it...last time I checked the Lamb was eternal so I am not sure how you could draw from that that I don't know what forever and forever means...you have a very strange reading habit of reading into things what is not there nor suggested nor intended it would appear and it is harmful to others and to communication.

...I would however suggest you learn a different technique than to reinvent what people say so that you can inflate your own position.

Click to expand...

I do not think so. You originally said that God did not punish people. That was the comment. That is what you stated. That was the focus.

Your words were.............
'he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)
[/quote] how long is the torment in this passage? It isn't until verse 11 that we see that they will have no rest...now, last time I checked, if I "witness" and even happening, it is happening in my presence but I don't have to stay and watch the whole ordeal play out to have witnessed what happened.'

What I posted was to show you that was an incorrect comment regardless of the definition of How long torment was.

You seem to be of the thinking that I am upset. All anyone has to do is read your words as posted to see who it is that is upset.

Again to the point made was that God does in fact punish the wicked lost and that is what is seen in Rev. 14:10......
"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

The Lamb is God and the Lamb is right there as a witness to the torment of the lost.

Major1 said:

I do not think so. You originally said that God did not punish people. That was the comment. That is what you stated. That was the focus.

Click to expand...

be careful what I said is that hell is not the punishment it is the consequence. If you look at Gen. and yes I pointed this out for clarification purposes which someone reading for comprehension would have seen. The punishment for eating the fruit of the tree was NOT death, that was the consequence. The punishment was pain during childbirth and weeds in the field and the serpents punishment.

IOW's I did NOT say God does not punish as you claim here I DID SAY that hell is the consequence for sin not the punishment for it...this is the problem you are having with me and some others, you read into it what is not there, reinvent what was said then pretend to be superior in thought because you can argue against something that was not said.

Your words were.............
'he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)

Click to expand...

how long is the torment in this passage? It isn't until verse 11 that we see that they will have no rest...now, last time I checked, if I "witness" and even happening, it is happening in my presence but I don't have to stay and watch the whole ordeal play out to have witnessed what happened.'

What I posted was to show you that was an incorrect comment regardless of the definition of How long torment was.[/quote] which comment did I make that was incorrect? You don't even know what I said...if you don't know what I said how could you possibly know what I said that was incorrect? Not to mention that I backed up what I said with scripture references.

You seem to be of the thinking that I am upset. All anyone has to do is read your words as posted to see who it is that is upset.

Click to expand...

lol again you read into my words what is not there. I don't think you are upset I know you are deceived into thinking I said and believe something I didn't/don't...and you refuse to accept you didn't read for comprehension what I said and/or ask for clarification.

Again to the point made was that God does in fact punish the wicked lost and that is what is seen in Rev. 14:10......
"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

Click to expand...

where in this passage does it say that God is using hell as a punishment rather than the consequence of sin? Cause I will show you from Gen. through to Rev. that scripture says that hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it. Oh, wait, I already did a short version of that and you still don't know what I even said....it would be helpful if you addressed my points not reinvent them then try to argue with me.

The Lamb is God and the Lamb is right there as a witness to the torment of the lost.

Click to expand...

yep...exactly what I said...

Major1 said:

Posting a Scripture and then explaining it the way you want, to make it say what you want instead of accepting as it is written does not make you correct my dear friend.

You just posted Rev. 5:13. HOW does that verse support your theology?

Click to expand...

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Aren't you in essence try to say that all of us are worshiping God in his or her own way and in the end because of Gods grace we will all be saved.

As a Universalist, you are saying that everyone worships God but we all do it in a different way. There fore we all wind up in God's heaven.

universalism Universalism definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
1. [U-]
the theological doctrine that all souls will eventually find salvation in the grace of God

That is what the Universalism says, is it not? Then to support that you are saying that the picture in Revelation 5:13 is the whole of all things in heaven around God on the throne. If I am misstating this I am sure you will correct me but that is what it appears you are saying.

Now You are absolutely free to believe what you choose to believe. I am saying that what you are believing can not be established on the Bible as it does not support or teach Universalism. In fact the Bible teaches "Particularism", which is just the opposite.

I also do not accept your teaching that Revelation 5:13 supports Universalism salvation.

I will however say that Rev. 5:13 teaches "Universal Worship" of the Lord Jesus Christ of those who do get to heaven by Jesus Christ.

Those however are two different things. The group gathered in Rev. 5:13 around the Lamb are the redeemed. But the REAL question still must be ........HOW did they get there?????

Every single one there is there by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. That IMO and also Bible fact is not universalism.

John 14:6..........
"I am the way the truth and the life and NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME".

The problem as I see it is that man wants to worship God, but men do not want to accept Jesus Christ as God, which IMO is exactly why God had John 14:6 placed in the Bible.

If ALL men Universally saved and go to heaven, do we just removed all the verses that say access to God and His heaven if ONLY through Jesus Christ?

When we read the Scriptures it becomes evident that not all people will be saved my friend.

Luke 16:23....
"And in hell, he lifted up his head, being in torments, and seeing Abraham a far off and Lazarus in his bosom".


Did the rich man make it to heaven? Is he one of the ones in Rev. 5:13?????
NO, he is in hell.

Not every person will be saved as the verse I just posted proves that. Now, some people from every group and nationality of people will be saved. That however does not mean that ALL people will be saved.

Major1 said:

Aren't you in essence try to say that all of us are worshiping God in his or her own way and in the end because of Gods grace we will all be saved.

Click to expand...

I've never said that. To the contrary:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved"
(Acts 4:12)

Major1 said:

universalism Universalism definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
1. [U-]
the theological doctrine that all souls will eventually find salvation in the grace of God

That is what the Universalism says, is it not?

Click to expand...

Yes. And the particular form of universalism believed by Christians is universalism via Christ, or Christian universalism. This is, after all, a Christians only forum.

Christian Universalism - Wikipedia

Universalism through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for all goes by many names:

"(Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Ultimate Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Apokatastis, Apocatastasis, Universal Redemption, The Larger Hope, The Greater Faith, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul's Gospel, Glorious Gospel, the Gospel of Grace, Universal Restoration, Universalism, No Hell Gospel, Universal Reconciliation, Doctrine of Inclusion)"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


"What is Christian Universalism? Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world." He is the promised Messiah of whom the prophets of the Old Covenant foresaw; Jesus is the Savior of the world, He is the "Second Adam," through Whom all mankind will be restored to God's original image, He is the only way to the Father, the only begotton Son of God Who gave His life for the world. We believe He is king and judge of the universe, and owner of all Creation, and that His purpose for the ages (aions) is to bring all things under His government and reconciled with Himself."

Christian Universalism: What is it?

I've been following this thread for a while now. I had a brother pass away a week ago and I wanted to know about this topic further.

I can say that it is a difficult topic in both complexity and meaning.

I ran across this article today and I thought it had some good points. Although I found that several of the biblical passages were not as clear as the article made them to appear.

Faith Defenders - Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna

There were some very good posts in this thread with a lot of biblical support for each position. I guess that means I have to hit the "BOOK" myself! Going to the scriptures with prayer, asking for wisdom through the Holy Spirit is ultimately where my decision will rest. Many of the scriptures posted in this thread will be a springboard for more study. For that I am grateful.

ClementofA said:

I've never said that. To the contrary:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved"
(Acts 4:12)






Yes. And the particular form of universalism believed by Christians is universalism via Christ, or Christian universalism. This is, after all, a Christians only forum.

Christian Universalism - Wikipedia

Universalism through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for all goes by many names:

"(Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Ultimate Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Apokatastis, Apocatastasis, Universal Redemption, The Larger Hope, The Greater Faith, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul's Gospel, Glorious Gospel, the Gospel of Grace, Universal Restoration, Universalism, No Hell Gospel, Universal Reconciliation, Doctrine of Inclusion)"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


"What is Christian Universalism? Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world." He is the promised Messiah of whom the prophets of the Old Covenant foresaw; Jesus is the Savior of the world, He is the "Second Adam," through Whom all mankind will be restored to God's original image, He is the only way to the Father, the only begotton Son of God Who gave His life for the world. We believe He is king and judge of the universe, and owner of all Creation, and that His purpose for the ages (aions) is to bring all things under His government and reconciled with Himself."

Christian Universalism: What is it?

Click to expand...

Finally, after all the bluster and positioning we are getting to the bottom line.

That may have been my fault for not correctly understanding your position or it maybe that you did not state it clearly as you just did.

You said.............
"Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

AGREED! That is 100% Biblically true. How can that be anything but true.

However, because Christ did die to take away the sins of the world, where does the option of choice come in your understanding?????

John 3:16............
" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Dosen't the Bible answer the question of ......"What must a man do to be saved", by saying.........
"BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved".

The word translated as "takes away" is airo, the basic meaning of which is "to lift up from the ground." A derivative meaning from this is "lift up with intent to carry," and a further derivative meaning from this is "take away." Given that the Jewish sacrificial system placed the blame for sin on the sacrificial lamb, which John here proclaimed Jesus to be, airoseems most appropriately applied to Jesus in the sense that he took upon himself the wrath of God due the "world" for its transgressions. That is, Jesus "lifted with the intent to carry" the burden of sin. If this is the correct interpretation of airo, and if correct interpretation of "world" is "every human being," then one of the following (or some combination thereof) must be true:

1. The punishment for "all sins of every human being" has been laid upon Christ, and therefore every human being will ultimately be saved (universalism).
   
   
2. The punishment for "all sins of every human being" has been laid upon Christ, but God is still willing, on an individual basis, to punish people for their sins if they fail to fulfill the condition of faith in Christ (God is willing to mete out punishment for these sins twice: once on Christ; once on the individual).
   
   
3. The punishment for "some sins of every human being" has been laid upon Christ, while the punishment for others sins has not been laid on Christ. Typically, these other sins are thought to include blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and/or unbelief (often these are considered one and the same).

However, none of the foregoing possibilities can be reality. Therefore, it cannot be true that Jesus "lifted with intent to carry" the burden of sin for all human beings:
The punishment for "all sins of every human being" has been laid upon Christ.

The first possibility must be rejected because the Bible clearly teaches against universal salvation. Since some people will not be saved and will perish, it is not true that every human being will be saved.
The punishment for "all sins of every human being" has been laid upon Christ, but God is still willing, on an individual basis, to punish people for their sins if they fail to fulfill the condition of faith in Christ.
The second possibility must also be rejected. If the second possibility were true, then God would impute sin to man for which an adequate atonement had already been made. This is inconsistent with the sufficient nature of Christ's atonement (as seen in the Arguments Supporting the Doctrine of Limited Atonement).

Further, second possibility requires that God the Father willingly and needlessly punished Christ for the sins of people who would never be saved. Since God is omniscient, he has always known that certain people will never be saved and will perish. God also has known that he will punish those people for their sins. According to the interpretation in question, God the Father subjected Christ to more divine wrath than justice required.

Additionally, this interpretation relies on a distinction between "taking away sin" and "taking away the imputation of sin." That is, it argues that in the impetration Christ took away sin, but did not take away the actual blame of sin. This is evident from the argument that people are punished for sins for which Christ died. Such a distinction cannot exist in reality. On the cross, Christ did not actually take sin into his person, thereby becoming actually sinful — that would have resulted in a sinful God, which is impossible. Neither did God exact punishment on Christ even though he know Christ to be innocent — God does not condemn or destroy the innocent (cf. 1 Sam. 19:5; Ps. 94:21; Jer. 26:15). Rather, sin was imputed to Christ.

BIBLICAL SOTERIOLOGY
An Overview and Defense of the Reformed Doctrines of Salvation
BIBLICAL SOTERIOLOGY An Overview and Defense of the Reformed Doctrines of Salvation Limited Atonement, part 19