The Doctrine of Eternal Security-Is It Biblical?

[Isaiah 53]

I do not intend to speak for another but if I may answer; Believers are a people of two natures, the flesh which wars against the spirit and the spirit which wars against the flesh. Gal. 5:17, Rom. 7:14-25. We fall and fail constantly. Everything we do is mixed with sin but we recognize this and always seek to be more than sinners. We do confess that we are sinners and have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

And when you confess do you infact repent of the sin you committed?

PAX CHRISTI

 

[mlqurgw]

And when you confess do you infact repent of the sin you committed?

PAX CHRISTI

Constantly.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Constantly.

How do you reconcile that with your statement, "Do you know what repenting is? Change of mind. One ought to have changed their mind toward sin at the time of their coming to true saving faith in Jesus Christ. From then on, they repented. There is no way that they can go back to the "unrepentant'' IF they were TRULY saved by Christ."

PAX CHRISTI

 

[mlqurgw]

How do you reconcile that with your statement, "Do you know what repenting is? Change of mind. One ought to have changed their mind toward sin at the time of their coming to true saving faith in Jesus Christ. From then on, they repented. There is no way that they can go back to the "unrepentant'' IF they were TRULY saved by Christ."

PAX CHRISTI

Of course that wasn't my statement. I sought to make it clear that I did not intend to answer for another. The confusion is my fault I am sure.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Of course that wasn't my statement. I sought to make it clear that I did not intend to answer for another. The confusion is my fault I am sure.

Wow, my fault... ...post confusion, please forgive me!

PAX CHRISTI

 

[mlqurgw]

Wow, my fault... ...post confusion, please forgive me!

PAX CHRISTI

No problem at all. I should have been more clear.

 

[Lynn73]

Are those who espouse OSAS incapable of sin?

PAX CHRISTI

Of course not. If I could be sinless, I wouldn't need a Savior would I? God sees the righteosness of Christ imputed to me when He sees me.

 

[Catholic Dude]

seekingpurity047-

1. What happens if someone does end up sinning in one of these ways, or worse?

If they have a repentant heart (changed view toward sins), they will confess their sin to God, and God will forgive them.

Here is what you said:

This would make you inclined NOT to sin anymore. You don't want to be involved in pornography, you don't want to be involved in stealing, drugs, excessive alcoholism, etc etc.
​

So they can sin later in life these sins they were supposedly "inclined not" to do? What does "inclined" mean in this case if they are capable of doing these sins at any time?

2. THe work out your salvation with fear + trembling. Contextually, God is working so that we may work out our salvation with fear and trembling. God works in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure. He makes sure of it that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us in this way.

So here it says our salvation is never complete because we must be working on it every day. Can anyone claim to be "saved in the first place" if salvation is an ongoing thing?

Also what about the James quote?

3. If that person doesn't have a repentant heart toward murdering those people (once again, change of view toward sin, change of mind, etc), then he was never saved to begin with. If a calvinist pastor went and robbed a bank, same situation, if he never repented (changed mind), then he was never saved in the first place.

There is only one "first place" in Calvinism, that is they were elected before birth. What enabled them to carry out such an act in the first place? The way I see it we cant know who is elect and who isnt no matter how bad a lifestyle we see them live because even the elect can do such things as murder.

4. The prodigal son came back, did he not? Therefore he would be considered elect. As for the context of 1 John 2:9, who are the antichrists? Surely, it is not just simply talking about Satan, but it is talking about people. If someone because an "anti-christ" or against Christ, though he once was a "christian", well he was never saved in the first place.

How did the prodigal son leave in the first place?

As for the context of 1Jn2:19, the antiChrists are said to be "22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." How many people do you know who call themself Christian who deny Jesus is the Chist or denies the Father and the Son?

5. If someone claims to have realized they were never saved in the first place, well... wouldn't they have repented (changed minds), and therefore, are saved anyway? Your question is illogical since nobody can realize taht they were never saved, because if someone thinks that, he/she will want to be saved, and therefore "repent and believe the gospel."

How can you say this?
So what Christian wouldnt believe they are saved? Im sure if you put up a poll in here everyone would believe they are saved. But just because they think they are does that mean they are?

 

[linssue55]

The doctrine of eternal security states that if you have had one moment of belief in Christ then you are immediately shot into God's inner circle of fellowship...you are eternally saved and there is nothing that you can do to get out of it. There is no great sin or act that you can commit that will take you out of fellowship with God. Even Blasphemy! I happen to agree with this doctrine. I call it the "Circles of Fellowship with God".

(John 3:16) A moment of faith alone in Christ alone shoots you into the innermost circle entitled "Experiential Truth". Inside this inner circle you earn eternal rewards (Matthew 6:19-20; 1st Corinthians 3:11-15) and you have personal fellowship with God (1st John 1:3-10). It is a temporal blessing. However, unconfessed sin will put you into the outer circle of fellowship in which the believer will recieve discipline (Hebrews 12), will lose rewards (Galatians 5; Ephesians 5), and enables the doctrine of sinning unto death (1st John 5:16). The believer still has, however, eternal life forever in the family of God (John 1:12-13) and is still born again (John 3:3-18). Once the believer confesses his/her known sins (1st John 1:9) they are back in the inner circle. Anyplace outside these two circles of course is also known as the "state of the unbeliever".

Now I have read the scriptures and presented my facts to many people before and some still claim that actions such as "suicide" will get you straight into hell whether you are saved or not. What is your opinion on the matter?

Eternal security is a Promise made by the Lord........

1. Positional approach; Every believer in union with Christ; (Rom 8:1, Eph 1:3-6, Jude 1)

2. Logical approach; If God did the most for us when we were His enemies, He will do much more
....than the most for us as His beloved; (Rom 5:9, 10, 15 17, 20; 8:32)

3. The anthropomorphic approach; We are "held in God's hand" and He will never let go;
....(Jn 10:28, Psa 37:24)

4. Experiential approach; Even if we reject our salvation God remains faithful, He is immutable
....(2Tim 2:12,13)

5. The Family approach; We are born into God's family forever; (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26)

6. Body approach; The Head of the body (Christ) can't ever say to a member of the body (believer)
....He does not need Him; (1Cor 12:21, Col 1:18)

7. Greek tense approach; Aorist tense (once and for all) "saved in the past with the result that we
....go on being saved forever); (Eph 2:8,9)

8. Inheritance approach; (1Pet 1:4,5)

9. Sovereignty approach; (2Pet 3:9)

10. Sealing ministry of The Holy Spirit; Guarantee of protection and safe delivery;
.....(2Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30; 2Tim 2:19)

 

[Normann]

The doctrine of OSAS is not backed up by scripture. Seems to me the argument is endless. I guess Judas went to heaven?

 

[Lynn73]

Those of us who believe it, believe that it is backed by Scripture.

I NEVER knew you. I NEVER knew you. Not "I used to know you but you became lost again so I don't know you now.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

The doctrine of OSAS is not backed up by scripture. Seems to me the argument is endless. I guess Judas went to heaven?

umm...Normann...take a look at the response just above yours

 

[Normann]

umm...Normann...take a look at the response just above yours

2 Pet 2:22

St. John 6:66

Luke 8:13

 

[AnthonyE1778]

2 Pet 2:22

St. John 6:66

Luke 8:13

I am aware of those verses and the only one that seems true to your point is the last one and the second one. The fact is that there have been many believers who have fallen away in time of temptation. My sister is one of them. Is she still going to heaven? Yes! Is she still saved? Yes! She still believes in God and everything about the Bible she just chooses not to live the lifestyle and has "fallen away" as this passage puts it. Now does being in the Eternal Security of God give one license to sin as much as they want and get away with it? No! One will lose eternal rewards while in that state as well as recieve discipline while still remaining in God's eternal family.

 

[Normann]

Read the entire 18th chapter of Ezekiel

 

[Normann]

Those of us who believe it, believe that it is backed by Scripture.
I NEVER knew you. I NEVER knew you. Not "I used to know you but you became lost again so I don't know you now.

Thanks for the scripture, it will help prove the truth. First the OSAS lie sounds simular to the passage in Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now for the term Jesus used here. How many times has someone said to me... "I'm tickled pink to see you" or "I'm thrilled to death you're here" and no one ever really turned pink nor fell over dead.

As for the passage you used... "I never knew you" it comes from the 7th chapter of Matthew, and maybe you should read the entire chapter.

Now go to...
Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are you telling me God cannot forget?

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I assume now you will tell me... "that's the Old Testament" so if we cut out verse 24 then also we cut out verse 21 and no one can be forgiven.

The New Testament version of Eze 18:24 is in...
2 Peter 2:22
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

...and in many other places if we read the Bible with an open mind and do not have a pre-concieved idea that alters the truth.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[WAB]

Here is my take on OSAS and some other points that are surely relative.
BLOTTED OUT?
Revelation 3:5.... (Jesus speaking) “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.”

This verse has produced a number of interesting and even diametrically opposed propositions. One of these, obviously, is that the believer must be an overcomer, or he will surely be blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life. Of course this presupposes that a genuine born-again believer may, at some time, lose his or her salvation.

Or, from the Calvinist perspective, at least some who were predestined to eternal salvation must have their names blotted out if perhaps they were not overcomers, leading to fear and doubt as to their final destiny.

A definition of the word “overcometh” might be appropriate.... This word is a translation of the Greek word nika’o, and means: “to subdue (lit. or fig.):-- conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.” (From Strong’s # 3528).

There are some different takes on who this “overcomer” is to prevail over. Some would say that he/she must “prevail”, or “get the victory” over an enemy; and that enemy could be almost anyone. However, Jesus (in Matthew 5:44) says: “... I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;” That would seem to eliminate the “conquer the enemy” syndrome, at least if that “enemy” is someone else.

But what if the “enemy” might happen to be “self”? In the very revealing 7th chapter of Romans, Paul starts out by stating that “...the Law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth.” But then in verse 4 he goes on to say of his “brethren” that they had “...become dead to the Law by (means of being members of) the Body of Christ...” As Colossians 3:3 puts it... “...ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Safe! And Secure! And, no longer under the Law of Moses.

However, that same genuine believer is still “in the flesh” and has not had the old sin nature eradicated yet, in spite of the teaching of some that a believer may attain to the position of having an experience of “entire sanctification” which includes the eradication of sin from the Believer’s life. We have had close contact with some who hold to this belief, and although they generally live as believers should, they also are faced with incidents in their lives (and in their thinking processes) that contradict the belief that sin has been removed from their daily experience.

Just one reference will suffice.... When my wife and I were preparing for the foreign mission field in the Portland, Oregon area, we rented a house from a couple who were of the “entire sanctification” persuasion. One time when I went to their house to make a rental payment, the wife came to the door, and she was so flustered, and her face was so red, that I thought she might be having an attack of some sort. Actually, she was; when I asked what was the matter she answered: “That husband of mine! If I wasn’t sanctified I’d hit him over the head with a frying pan!”
Obviously, it was an anger attack.

Back in Romans 7.... If one reads verses 13 through 25 with an open mind and after trusting the Holy spirit to illuminate the truth to the innermost being, one cannot escape the fact that even after experiencing the new birth, one still has the old sin nature (OSN) to contend with. In this passage, Paul clearly confesses that, in his flesh, he often sinned against the Lord. Certainly, if that was the case with Paul, it is the case with us as well. And, just as certainly, we must utilize 1 John 1:9 and realize that it is only through The Deliverer, Jesus Christ our Lord, that we can ever experience deliverance from “self.” (see verses 24 & 25).

Back to considering just who might be “blotted out,” and who will not be blotted out of the book of life.

In the 32nd chapter of Exodus, we read of the deliberate disobedience of “the children of Israel” after their miraculous deliverance from Egypt. There are some very interesting things recorded in this portion of God’s Word (such as Aaron’s explanation to Moses as to the origin of the golden calf), and we see that except for the fact that Moses intervened on behalf of the Israelites, the LORD would have consumed them in His wrath.

Then, after “the sons of Levi” had slain “about three thousand men” from among those who were mixing idolatry with prescribed worship, Moses returned to the LORD and said: “‘... if You will forgive their sin– but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.’ And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.’” (verses 32,33)

From what Yahweh said, one might conclude that if one who believes he/she is “in Christ” but sins against God at any time subsequent to their being born-again, they face inevitable blotting out of His book.

Several things may be noted here. #1... Moses was confident that his name was already in the book of life. #2... There is a parallel to the sacrificial love that Moses had for his kinsmen in Romans 9:3, where Paul says: “...I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen (kinsmen, relatives) according to the flesh.”

​

#3... Moses himself was a sinner. He smote the rock twice in the wilderness in his anger against the rebels of Israel, and was forbidden entry to the promised land as a result. (see Numbers 20:7-12). As James 1:20 puts it: “...the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.”

Also, Romans 3:10 refers to Psalm 14:1-3 when we read: “...There is none righteous, no, not one.”

And verse 23 (of Rom. 3): “...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” That includes Moses.... and Paul... and you... and me.

#4... Obviously, if the LORD’S statement in Exodus 32:33 referred to an immediate result of having sinned, no one could avoid having their names blotted out. But, Praise God! For those who, prior to the finished work of Christ on Calvary’s cross, put their trust in the coming Messiah, and for those who, since then, have put their trust in Christ, their names remain in the book!

Another issue that comes up quite often is one that is somewhat confusing; and that is, when is one’s name written in the book?

Probably, most Christians would say that their names were written in the book at the time of their being born-again, (or, born-anew). However, that belief leads to at least two problems. One, is that we have already seen that Moses’ name was in the book.... Prior to Calvary. There was no new birth prior to Christ’s birth, death at Calvary and His resurrection, as the Holy Spirit came upon individuals at His discretion, and often left. David prayed: “Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:11). But... In John 6:37 Jesus says: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.”

And, Hebrews 13:5: “Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, ‘I will never leave you norforsake you’”The word “never” in that verse is the strongest negative in the Greek language.

Wuest’s Expanded Translation has: “Let your manner of life be without love of money, being satisfied with your present circumstances. For He himself has said, and the statement is on record, ‘I will not, I will not cease to sustain and uphold you. I will not, I will not, I will not let you down.’”
A second problem that comes up from the belief that one’s name is written in the book at the time of the new birth, is that if one may have his/her name blotted out at a later time, then we need to twist the following Scriptures severely.

​

Romans 6:23.... “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Romans 11:29.... “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

For those who believe that one may be born-again and become a new creation in Christ Jesus (see 2Cor.5:17) and then at some later time lose their salvation.... the word “eternal” must mean temporary, and the word “gift” must really mean loan.

A further indication as to when the names of people (and I believe all people) were written in the Book of Life is found in Luke 10:20.... ‘“...do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.’” Here Jesus is speaking to the 70 disciples He sent out (as lambs among wolves); again prior to His death, burial and resurrection and so prior to the introduction of the new birth.

Is there a legitimate, Biblical and logical answer that can reconcile these apparently contradictory positions? I believe there is.

If we include in our thinking 2 Peter 3:9.... “The Lord... is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

Or.... 1 Thessalonians 5:9.... “...God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ...”

Or.... Psalm 139:16.... “Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they were all written...” Then we may legitimately come to the conclusion that everyone’s name was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, and that only those who refuse to place their faith in the Savior will have their names blotted out of the book.

As 1 Timothy 4:10 says: “...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” The word “especially” is the Greek mal’ista, and means: “in particular” or, “specifically.” i.e. Salvation is potential for all, but realized only by those who put their trust in the One and only Savior.
First John 5:4,5.... “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

As we can see, this passage adds “the world” to “self” as that which the true Believer overcomes. The one who has his name blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life is a non-overcomer, a non-believer!

Every true Believer has to admit that we battle, or wage war against, both self and the worldly influences that surround us. That is why the Lord has given us His Word!

AND, that is why the 6th chapter of Ephesians is so vital to spiritual well-being.

We can only “... be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.” And that is why we must “Put on the whole armor of God, that you (we) may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle (present tense, i.e. we are not wrestling) against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

“Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

“Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

“And take the helmet of salvation; and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God; (note that this is the only offensive weapon) praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints– and for me....” (Ephesians 6:10-19a)



Scriptures from the KJV, the NKJV, Wuest’s Expanded Translation, and the English Standard Version, with emphasis added. Written by: W.A.B.

 

[Normann]

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Thanks for the scripture, it will help prove the truth. First the OSAS lie sounds simular to the passage in Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now for the term Jesus used here. How many times has someone said to me... "I'm tickled pink to see you" or "I'm thrilled to death you're here" and no one ever really turned pink nor fell over dead.

As for the passage you used... "I never knew you" it comes from the 7th chapter of Matthew, and maybe you should read the entire chapter.

Now go to...
Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are you telling me God cannot forget?

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I assume now you will tell me... "that's the Old Testament" so if we cut out verse 24 then also we cut out verse 21 and no one can be forgiven.

The New Testament version of Eze 18:24 is in...
2 Peter 2:22
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

...and in many other places if we read the Bible with an open mind and do not have a pre-concieved idea that alters the truth.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Am I to understand that you think the OSAS is a heresy and one can fall from Grace once they have already entered the Kingdom of God?

 

[Normann]

I am aware of those verses and the only one that seems true to your point is the last one and the second one. The fact is that there have been many believers who have fallen away in time of temptation. My sister is one of them. Is she still going to heaven? Yes! Is she still saved? Yes! She still believes in God and everything about the Bible she just chooses not to live the lifestyle and has "fallen away" as this passage puts it. Now does being in the Eternal Security of God give one license to sin as much as they want and get away with it? No! One will lose eternal rewards while in that state as well as recieve discipline while still remaining in God's eternal family.

I'm sorry about your sister being backslidden.

Please explain away the two passages that agree with my view.

And while you're at it explain this one...

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann