The Doctorate Degree

[Biblicist]

John Wesley's opinion of the big name tag....

LONDON
September 20, 1788


My Dear Brother:

There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation wherein you stand to the Americans and the relation wherein I stand to all the Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am under God the father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore I in a measure provide for you all; for the supplies which Dr. Coke provides for you, he could not provide were it not for me, were it not that I not only permit him to collect but also support him in so doing.

But in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid both the Doctor and you differ from me. I study to be little: you study to be great. I creep; you strut along. I found a school: you a college! [Cokesbury College.] nay, and call it after your own names! 0 beware, do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing, and "Christ be all in all!"

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me Bishop! For my sake, for God's sake, for Christ's sake put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am Your affectionate friend and brother,

John Wesley

Wait a moment . . . John Wesley was hardly an unschooled nave as he first obtained his Matriculation (a precursor for entry into a British University), then his Bachelors, Masters and he was eventually unanimously elected as a Fellow at Oxford University. As such, he could very well be referred to as being a scholars-scholar.

The fledgling Methodist movement was indeed blessed to have a scholar as its leader.

 

[rockytopva]

Wait a moment . . . John Wesley was hardly an unschooled nave as he first obtained his Matriculation (a precursor for entry into a British University), then his Bachelors, Masters and he was eventually unanimously elected as a Fellow at Oxford University. As such, he could very well be referred to as being a scholars-scholar.

The fledgling Methodist movement was indeed blessed to have a scholar as its leader.

A good hearted scholar at that!

John Wesley once said, “When a man dies they ought to have enough to bury him and a few pence for his friends.” In 1731, at age 28, Wesley began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money for giving. As his wealth grew Wesley was found living at his same living expenses and he gave away all his extra income to the poor.

Wesley's diet consisted mainly of potatoes, partly to improve his health but also to save money. He said: “What I save from my own meat will feed another that else would have none.” His diet and travels kept him healthy on up into his mid-80’s.

In 1744 Wesley had written, "When I die if I leave behind me ten pounds… you and all mankind may bear witness against me, that I have lived and died a thief and a robber." When he died in 1791, the only money mentioned in his will was the miscellaneous coins to be found in his pockets and dresser drawers. What had happened to the rest of his money? He had given it away.

 

[Biblicist]

Bill Clinton has 17 honorary doctorates, including one from the University of Edinburgh.

Yes, as I said, honorary degrees are often worthless and this would be a good example of where Universities have maybe sold their souls to the devil (or at least to his advocate).

 

[Biblicist]

A good hearted scholar at that!

John Wesley once said, “When a man dies they ought to have enough to bury him and a few pence for his friends.” In 1731, at age 28, Wesley began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money for giving. As his wealth grew Wesley was found living at his same living expenses and he gave away all his extra income to the poor.

Wesley's diet consisted mainly of potatoes, partly to improve his health but also to save money. He said: “What I save from my own meat will feed another that else would have none.” His diet and travels kept him healthy on up into his mid-80’s.

In 1744 Wesley had written, "When I die if I leave behind me ten pounds… you and all mankind may bear witness against me, that I have lived and died a thief and a robber." When he died in 1791, the only money mentioned in his will was the miscellaneous coins to be found in his pockets and dresser drawers. What had happened to the rest of his money? He had given it away.

It seems that John Wesley has taken a leaf from another academic who often found himself hungry and without shelter - that would be the Apostle Paul.

 

[iEye]

From a letter to Christopher Tolkien [from his father J.R.R. Tolkien] 29 November 1943
My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people. If people were in the habit of referring to ‘King George’s council, Winston and his gang’, it would go a long way to clearing thought, and reducing the frightful landslide into Theyocracy. Anyway the proper study of Man is anything but Man; and the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity. And at least it is done only to a small group of men who know who their master is. The mediævals were only too right in taking nolo efiscopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop.

From Latin nolo episcopari (“I do not want to be bishop”).

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

So let there be no experts and just ignorant laymen.

 

[rockytopva]

So let there be no experts and just ignorant laymen.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. -Acts 4:13

 

[rockytopva]

So let there be no experts and just ignorant laymen.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; -1 Cor 1

 

[rockytopva]

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; -1 Cor 1

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. -Acts 4:13

And this is how God works with everyone? Has God given you complete knowledge of Koine Greek, the historical background of the New Testament and the movements of theology over these last 2000 years without you having to open a single book?

You are appealing to an exception to the rule of how we come upon knowledge, not the rule itself. If you want to dismiss the process of seminaries and titles we give to people as a result of their hard work because you prefer God gifting you the knowledge directly, by all means, but we both know you (and I) are nothing next to the serious student who has just obtained their PHD, having mastered Hebrew, Greek, History, Logic and a variety of other fields of study.

What Peter received was truly an awesome sight, because he was an ignorant fisherman but God had gifted him with things it took people years to obtain.

 

[Tigger45]

Our senior pastor has an ‘earned’ Th.D. but he doesn’t typically share that information on a normal basis. You usually only find out that he has a doctorate if it comes from someone else saying it. I see that as a sign of humbleness and I respect that. What gets under my skin is when someone is a recipient of an ‘honorary’ doctorate and they make sure everyone knows it.

 

[DamianWarS]

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23

I believe religious titles, such as Father, Doctor, or Rabbi; are basically a bad thing. It can make modern day Pharisees out of people.

When we demand or even expect our title then I think you have crossed over into this passage and embraced the pharisaical spirit. This also is for any title and the title "pastor" is the new rabbi

 

[2Timothy2:15]

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23

I believe religious titles, such as Father, Doctor, or Rabbi; are basically a bad thing. It can make modern day Pharisees out of people.

I would add Pastor to that as well. You do not find anyone calling themselves Pastor or being addressed as pastor anywhere in the bible either.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Our senior pastor has an ‘earned’ Th.D. but he doesn’t typically share that information on a normal basis. You usually only find out that he has a doctorate if it comes from someone else saying it. I see that as a sign of humbleness and I respect that. What gets under my skin is when someone is a recipient of an ‘honorary’ doctorate and they make sure everyone knows it.

There is a guy in my city that goes by Dr. blah blah blah. I did a bit of research into his so called credentials. Turns out he was given this phony doctorate from an African University that is under investigation for giving out fake P.H.Ds......

 

[dqhall]

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23

I believe religious titles, such as Father, Doctor, or Rabbi; are basically a bad thing. It can make modern day Pharisees out of people.

Jesus was presumed to be the son of a carpenter. He gained an in depth knowledge of the scriptures before starting his public ministry when he was about 30. Luke 4 described Jesus reading from the Book of Isaiah in a synagogue at Nazareth. Not everyone could read in those days.

Peter, John, James and Andrew were fishermen. They became Christian leaders by following Jesus.
Jesus also needed literate, educated men. Paul was trained as a Pharisee. He was able to read, write and spoke Greek as well as the Jewish dialect. Paul was not a believer at first. After he believed his education became more important.

Matthew was a tax collector. He must have been literate and educated in tax law and book keeping. His literacy was key to his ability to write a Gospel

Luke was trained as a physician. During Roman times some physicians were able to do cataract surgery, but could not cure cholera. Chewing willow bark was known to reduce pain and fevers as early as the time of Hippocrates in the 5th century BC. Willow bark contains salicylic acid; the active ingredient in aspirin. Paul wrote that only Luke was with him while he wrote his letter to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4.

Whatever knowledge, degrees, job skills and language skills a person has may become of greater value when one becomes a Christian.

 

[Tree of Life]

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23

I believe religious titles, such as Father, Doctor, or Rabbi; are basically a bad thing. It can make modern day Pharisees out of people.

How would you suggest that we recognize people who've achieved a certain level of education or (relative) mastery of a subject? Should we distinguish between those who've studied the Bible and those who have not?

 

[Tree of Life]

And to say again... I believe religious titles, such as Father, Doctor, or Rabbi; are basically a bad thing. It can make modern day Pharisees out of people. It can also discourage people from pursing ministry ends themselves, fearing the way as to complicated.

Are you opposing the use of the title or opposing the idea of a seminary education as a means of preparing for ministry?

 

[aiki]

Over the centuries and going right back to the New Testament itself, the Pharisees have been viewed very negatively. In my opinion most of this negativity is quite undeserved.

Are you saying that some two thousand years removed from the time described in the Gospels you know better than those who were there what condemnation the Pharisees deserved? Really?

 

[Deadworm]

I have a Princeton MDiv, a Harvard doctorate, and a 12 year career as a theology professor. But then I became a UMC pastor and people were nervous about how to address me (Dr.? Rev.? Pastor?). This is how I replied to their inquiries: "You may address me as either "Your ineffable hugeness" or "Don," whichever you prefer.

Dr. Billy Graham? Dr. Martin Luther King? Sheesh!!!
"

 

[OzSpen]

I would add Pastor to that as well. You do not find anyone calling themselves Pastor or being addressed as pastor anywhere in the bible either.

However, pastor-teacher is one of the ministry gifts of Christ to function in the church (Eph 4:11-12). I'm happy to call my pastor by his ministry gift - pastor or Christian shepherd.

I don't want a mechanic working on my car who is not qualified as a mechanic. I'm happy to call him by his gift - mechanic.

My house was built by an expert builder and his carpenters. I didn't want any joe blow building the house I live in. Carpenter Kane and his carpenters built a pretty good structure.

There are things that are not addressed in the Bible. Where do we find the words, Bible, Trinity, aseity, bibliology, etc mentioned in the Bible?

I sure wouldn't want a novice in languages to be translating the NKJV, NIV, ESV, NLT and NRSV Bible versions. I have a friend who works for SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics) who has a PhD in linguistics to help him translate languages in East Timor. He had to start from scratch.

The language was not in written form. He had to work from nothing to get the NT into print. It has now been printed. He needed the skills he obtained in a research PhD from Australian National University.

Oz