The Doctorate Degree

[NeedyFollower]

I am not in any way against education per se but is there such a thing as the Holy Ghost ? Even the Spirit of Truth ? Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice ....does a title make the truth more of the truth ? I think it may be a work of the flesh. Are we driven by the Spirit of God ? If while in seminary , I get a passing but low grade of 70 on a test ...does it mean I have a 70 in love ? Or is knowledge better than love ..again nothing wrong with knowledge , but it is not going to be one of the questions on judgement day ..I do not see the need for titles ..Jesus said call no man rabbi ( teacher ) for you are all brothers . That does not seem difficult to understand ...and those not wanting to be instructed by a potentially unlearned pastor ...you have knees and a bible or two , right ? Or have we become accustomed to paying someone to have a relationship with God for us , so we can pursue the pleasures of the world, and show up for religious instruction a coupe of days a week ?

 

[Biblicist]

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. -Acts 4:13

The problem with taking this out of context is that we need to remind ourselves that when it came to compiling a writing statement regarding the basics of the Christian faith, that the Father essentially bypassed the 11 Disciples/Apostles who had spent three and a half years with Jesus for an outsider Academic called Paul.

If the Father could not utilise the Eleven (or Twelve including Matthias) then what does this say for how he had to rope in an unsaved academic zealot for the task of compiling the New Testament.

Even with the record of the early Church in the Books of Acts (along with Luke's Gospel), he was hardly an unschooled Believer, nor one of the Twelve and from what we know he was actually a trained medical doctor. As Luke was highly analytical he was the right person for the task, which is something that none of the Twelve were apparently suited to.

Remember, being a teacher or a scholar is not a so called "spiritual gift", the Father cannot make a teacher out of someone who is not inclined to be a teacher as this is something that comes from within the man from his very inception in the womb.

 

[rockytopva]

We have Baptist churches in our area that do well
We have Baptist churches in our area that do not

It all seems to hinge on the senior pastor. We had a church where everyone I knew Baptist went to, they change pastors, and now no one I know Baptist goes there. What happened is they let their old pastor go, and then hired a pastor with oodles of seminary degrees. The guy had no people skills and basically drove off the flock.

Then we have a Baptist preacher who has built a very large church in farm country. As he has people skills the church has done well and continues to prosper.

"Dr." John Maxwell acknowledges the skills he had to pick up outside of the seminary...

1. Leadership
2. Attitude
3. Relationships
4. Equipping

I personally believe that any church blessed by the CF site here as Christian is indeed Christian. I do not believe, though, that a Christian seminary is a guarantee that a preacher will come out 'Spirit Filled.' I do not believe that a Christian seminary is in anyway sinful.

“In Bible college, I sometimes heard professors and chapel speakers say that a Christian college was the easiest place to backslide. What they said about Bible college applies as well to the ministry. The emphasis is simply that serving Christ cannot be a substitute for fellowship with Christ. Working for Him must never take the place of walking with Him.” – My old Baptist preacher

As good as a Christian education is… It can be a bad thing if we loose the child like virtues we received around the old altar services.

 

[Paidiske]

There are things you cannot teach or learn in seminary, and a degree does not make a good pastor.

But... if you have the basics within you (a caring heart, a knack for community, a discipline of prayer, a love of Scripture, and so on) then the degree equips you to have the knowledge and skill to work well across the range of tasks demanded of a pastor; including an understanding of the need for ongoing professional development. There is too much that we need to know - knowledge and skills - to even begin to pack it into a course of a few years' duration.

What I'm saying is that you need both. Someone who is ignorant is a danger in the pulpit or at the deathbed, as is someone who is highly educated but for whom it's all just an intellectual exercise. Ultimately this is a question of the church's discernment in who they choose as their ministers.

 

[Biblicist]

We have Baptist churches in our area that do well
We have Baptist churches in our area that do not

It all seems to hinge on the senior pastor. We had a church where everyone I knew Baptist went to, they change pastors, and now no one I know Baptist goes there. What happened is they let their old pastor go, and then hired a pastor with oodles of seminary degrees. The guy had no people skills and basically drove off the flock.

Over the years I have seen and heard of who knows how many churches that have been started by well meaning but untrained/unskilled individuals where there churches have not only closed but where they have been hotbeds of ongoing disaster.

But one thing that I have observed, at least in my own country, is that probably every large congregation (or at last 95%) that have grown to a reasonable size that they have had strong and very astute and qualified Elders who were the ones that were the foundations of the church, either in a spiritual capacity or through their educational training in general business and finance, where the Senior Minister has essentially been the front man or the person who is there to perform on the platform - though most do have other skills as well.

I personally believe that any church blessed by the CF site here as Christian is indeed Christian. I do not believe, though, that a Christian seminary is a guarantee that a preacher will come out 'Spirit Filled.' I do not believe that a Christian seminary is in anyway sinful

“In Bible college, I sometimes heard professors and chapel speakers say that a Christian college was the easiest place to backslide. What they said about Bible college applies as well to the ministry. The emphasis is simply that serving Christ cannot be a substitute for fellowship with Christ. Working for Him must never take the place of walking with Him.” – My old Baptist preacher

How true indeed, but in my opinion it is far better to backslide within a sedate college environment, or too loose heart than it is to do so within a church due to the often boring tasks that many paid staffers have to perform or where individuals have been placed within roles that they were not suited to - where in the end they fall into grievous sin.

The problem that we certainly have within Bible colleges is that many of them seem to push everyone into the unbliblical role of a pastor where this often impossible task has been the catalyst for many an individual to fall into sin. What also seems to occur on a regular basis is that many Bible college students decide after a while that the role is not something that they are all that suited to or more importantly that the training they are receiving, is in their view, not equipping for the tasks that they expect to perform.

 

[Paidiske]

Part of the problem here is clericalism; the expectation that the clergy will do everything or will somehow be all the necessary things for a church. Instead of a vision in which every person in the church has a part to play, and the minister is just one of those people with a particular role.

 

[Biblicist]

There are things you cannot teach or learn in seminary, and a degree does not make a good pastor.

But... if you have the basics within you (a caring heart, a knack for community, a discipline of prayer, a love of Scripture, and so on) then the degree equips you to have the knowledge and skill to work well across the range of tasks demanded of a pastor; including an understanding of the need for ongoing professional development. There is too much that we need to know - knowledge and skills - to even begin to pack it into a course of a few years' duration.

What I'm saying is that you need both. Someone who is ignorant is a danger in the pulpit or at the deathbed, as is someone who is highly educated but for whom it's all just an intellectual exercise. Ultimately this is a question of the church's discernment in who they choose as their ministers.

I would say that in spite of the often incredible training and equipping that many Bible Colleges are able to provide, that unless a student walks into the Institution with the right emotional and spiritual temperament/aptitude, that any amount of formal training will be at best only a stop-gap before the proverbial axe falls.

Having now said this, I am seriously looking at a course or two at Ridley College, which you would undoubtedly know of. One of their lecturers has a worldwide reputation in the specific field that interests me and I could possibly be prepared to fork out the extra dollars to sit under the ministry of a highly respected scholar than by saving a few dollars on a lesser light.

 

[Biblicist]

Part of the problem here is clericalism; the expectation that the clergy will do everything or will somehow be all the necessary things for a church. Instead of a vision in which every person in the church has a part to play, and the minister is just one of those people with a particular role.

Yes, and the same goes within those independent churches that only have a single paid "pastor" who tends to be lumbered with all the work that the congregation is supposed to be doing.

 

[Paidiske]

I didn't get my degree at Ridley but I've been there for various things over the years. It's a good college; there are things I would tweak (there always are, anywhere) but you'll get robust teaching there.

I'd be curious to know about your interests; feel free to PM me so as not to derail the thread, if you'd like.

 

[rockytopva]

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. - 1 Corinthians 8:1

If one can get a doctorate degree and stay humble I believe such a degree as good. If knowledge puffs up, and just a little of that makes the whole lump bad, then there's also a danger there.

 

[rockytopva]

When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.

Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!

"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"

And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

However, pastor-teacher is one of the ministry gifts of Christ to function in the church (Eph 4:11-12). I'm happy to call my pastor by his ministry gift - pastor or Christian shepherd.

I don't want a mechanic working on my car who is not qualified as a mechanic. I'm happy to call him by his gift - mechanic.

My house was built by an expert builder and his carpenters. I didn't want any joe blow building the house I live in. Carpenter Kane and his carpenters built a pretty good structure.

There are things that are not addressed in the Bible. Where do we find the words, Bible, Trinity, aseity, bibliology, etc mentioned in the Bible?

I sure wouldn't want a novice in languages to be translating the NKJV, NIV, ESV, NLT and NRSV Bible versions. I have a friend who works for SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics) who has a PhD in linguistics to help him translate languages in East Timor. He had to start from scratch.

The language was not in written form. He had to work from nothing to get the NT into print. It has now been printed. He needed the skills he obtained in a research PhD from Australian National University.

Oz

I understand your point. It is a gift, it is something you do. But I said those who demand to be addressed as pastor. Show me where anyone in the bible either introduces themselves or is addressed with the "title" pastor.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

We have Baptist churches in our area that do well
We have Baptist churches in our area that do not

It all seems to hinge on the senior pastor. We had a church where everyone I knew Baptist went to, they change pastors, and now no one I know Baptist goes there. What happened is they let their old pastor go, and then hired a pastor with oodles of seminary degrees. The guy had no people skills and basically drove off the flock.

Then we have a Baptist preacher who has built a very large church in farm country. As he has people skills the church has done well and continues to prosper.

"Dr." John Maxwell acknowledges the skills he had to pick up outside of the seminary...

1. Leadership
2. Attitude
3. Relationships
4. Equipping

I personally believe that any church blessed by the CF site here as Christian is indeed Christian. I do not believe, though, that a Christian seminary is a guarantee that a preacher will come out 'Spirit Filled.' I do not believe that a Christian seminary is in anyway sinful.

“In Bible college, I sometimes heard professors and chapel speakers say that a Christian college was the easiest place to backslide. What they said about Bible college applies as well to the ministry. The emphasis is simply that serving Christ cannot be a substitute for fellowship with Christ. Working for Him must never take the place of walking with Him.” – My old Baptist preacher

As good as a Christian education is… It can be a bad thing if we loose the child like virtues we received around the old altar services.

I think what you are describing is two different people. The first guy who you say has people skills, actually has a gift. The second guy with the fancy degrees doesn't actually have a gift but thought he could earn a career. This is the big problem with the modern church system which is not found in the bible. It is built on man's system, not God's model of the "church".

 

[GreekOrthodox]

This is how I replied to their inquiries: "You may address me as either "Your ineffable hugeness" or "Don," whichever you prefer.
"

Is that Don or "The Don", or "Don Deadworm", Your ineffable hugeness?

 

[OzSpen]

I understand your point. It is a gift, it is something you do. But I said those who demand to be addressed as pastor. Show me where anyone in the bible either introduces themselves or is addressed with the "title" pastor.

I agree with the point you are making. However, in my experience as a pastor, the people have called me pastor. I did not call myself pastor.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4:12
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Titus 1:7-9
For the overseer (BISHOP?)must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician (doctor), but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”