The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[Aureus]

"Virtually" no evidence.....

What does that signify?

That Christians have literally forged entries into Roman Works that we have early and later examples of that show the modifications to later texts to try and create evidence for Jesus. So what we actually have is evidence of no one noticing this monumental event of a man coming back to life and Christians trying to fake that people noticed it.

And then there are things like the Bible using the appropriate names of different cities and such in the Old Testament. But then for the Old Testament most of its pivotal stories tend to fly in the face of archaeological evidence and other writings we have.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

That Christians have literally forged entries into Roman Works that we have early and later examples of that show the modifications to later texts to try and create evidence for Jesus. So what we actually have is evidence of no one noticing this monumental event of a man coming back to life and Christians trying to fake that people noticed it.

What Roman works?

 

[Aureus]

What Roman works?

Got anything to actually add yourself?

Josephus's "The Antiquities of the Jews" is the most famous. Christians/Biblical Scholars go "totally legit"

Historians go

"totally made up insertions"

 

[Colter]

That Christians have literally forged entries into Roman Works that we have early and later examples of that show the modifications to later texts to try and create evidence for Jesus. So what we actually have is evidence of no one noticing this monumental event of a man coming back to life and Christians trying to fake that people noticed it.

And then there are things like the Bible using the appropriate names of different cities and such in the Old Testament. But then for the Old Testament most of its pivotal stories tend to fly in the face of archaeological evidence and other writings we have.

Jesus appeared to his immediate associates as well as other groups of believers, all were quite surprised. But Jesus' ministry was not about the belief in miracles, signs and wonders, it was about discovering living spiritual truth in faith.

 

[Rush 5]

If I may I'd like to point out the fact that ages of any historical documents mentioned here is pure conjecture and myth.

"The oldest known paper document in the West is the Mozarab Missal of Silos from the 11th century, probably using paper made in the Islamic part of the Iberian Peninsula. They used hemp and linen rags as a source of fiber. The first recorded paper mill in the Iberian Peninsula was in Xàtiva in 1151.[26

Papermaking reached Europe as early as 1085 in Toledo and was firmly established in Xàtiva, Spain by 1150. It is clear that France had a paper mill by 1190, and by 1276 mills were established in Fabriano, Italy and in Treviso and other northern Italian towns by 1340. Papermaking then spread further northwards, with evidence of paper being made in Troyes, France by 1348, in Holland sometime around 1340–1350, in Mainz, Germany in 1320, and in Nuremberg by 1390 in a mill set up by Ulman Stromer.[26] This was just about the time when the woodcut printmaking technique was transferred from fabric to paper in the old master print and popular prints. There was a paper mill in Switzerland by 1432 and the first mill in England was set up by John Tate in 1490 near Stevenage in Hertfordshire,[27] but the first commercially successful paper mill in Britain did not occur before 1588 when John Spilman set up a mill near Dartford in Kent.[28] During this time, paper making spread to Poland by 1491, to Austria by 1498, to Russia by 1576, to the Netherlands by 1586, to Denmark by 1596, and to Sweden by 1612.[16]"

All historical accounts and artwork of Ancient Empires like Rome Egypt and Greece and of Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar are complete fabrications based on much later writings of "Tacitus" and "Seutonius" and their contemporaries around 15th Century AD.

 

[Rush 5]

If I may I'd like to point out the fact that ages of any historical documents mentioned here is pure conjecture and myth.

"The oldest known paper document in the West is the Mozarab Missal of Silos from the 11th century, probably using paper made in the Islamic part of the Iberian Peninsula. They used hemp and linen rags as a source of fiber. The first recorded paper mill in the Iberian Peninsula was in Xàtiva in 1151.[26

Papermaking reached Europe as early as 1085 in Toledo and was firmly established in Xàtiva, Spain by 1150. It is clear that France had a paper mill by 1190, and by 1276 mills were established in Fabriano, Italy and in Treviso and other northern Italian towns by 1340. Papermaking then spread further northwards, with evidence of paper being made in Troyes, France by 1348, in Holland sometime around 1340–1350, in Mainz, Germany in 1320, and in Nuremberg by 1390 in a mill set up by Ulman Stromer.[26] This was just about the time when the woodcut printmaking technique was transferred from fabric to paper in the old master print and popular prints. There was a paper mill in Switzerland by 1432 and the first mill in England was set up by John Tate in 1490 near Stevenage in Hertfordshire,[27] but the first commercially successful paper mill in Britain did not occur before 1588 when John Spilman set up a mill near Dartford in Kent.[28] During this time, paper making spread to Poland by 1491, to Austria by 1498, to Russia by 1576, to the Netherlands by 1586, to Denmark by 1596, and to Sweden by 1612.[16]"

All historical accounts and artwork of Ancient Empires like Rome Egypt and Greece and of Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar are complete fabrications based on much later writings of "Tacitus" and "Seutonius" and their contemporaries around 15th Century AD.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If I may I'd like to point out the fact that ages of any historical documents mentioned here is pure conjecture and myth.

"The oldest known paper document in the West...

If I may I'd like to point out that people haven't always written on paper.

 

[Colter]

If I may I'd like to point out the fact that ages of any historical documents mentioned here is pure conjecture and myth.

"The oldest known paper document in the West is the Mozarab Missal of Silos from the 11th century, probably using paper made in the Islamic part of the Iberian Peninsula. They used hemp and linen rags as a source of fiber. The first recorded paper mill in the Iberian Peninsula was in Xàtiva in 1151.[26

Papermaking reached Europe as early as 1085 in Toledo and was firmly established in Xàtiva, Spain by 1150. It is clear that France had a paper mill by 1190, and by 1276 mills were established in Fabriano, Italy and in Treviso and other northern Italian towns by 1340. Papermaking then spread further northwards, with evidence of paper being made in Troyes, France by 1348, in Holland sometime around 1340–1350, in Mainz, Germany in 1320, and in Nuremberg by 1390 in a mill set up by Ulman Stromer.[26] This was just about the time when the woodcut printmaking technique was transferred from fabric to paper in the old master print and popular prints. There was a paper mill in Switzerland by 1432 and the first mill in England was set up by John Tate in 1490 near Stevenage in Hertfordshire,[27] but the first commercially successful paper mill in Britain did not occur before 1588 when John Spilman set up a mill near Dartford in Kent.[28] During this time, paper making spread to Poland by 1491, to Austria by 1498, to Russia by 1576, to the Netherlands by 1586, to Denmark by 1596, and to Sweden by 1612.[16]"

All historical accounts and artwork of Ancient Empires like Rome Egypt and Greece and of Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar are complete fabrications based on much later writings of "Tacitus" and "Seutonius" and their contemporaries around 15th Century AD.

Papyrus

 

[Rush 5]

Papyrus was used as late as 11th century factually. Its dating to 2500 BC is based on an already established chronology and is pure conjecture. That is if you claim that pyramids are 5000 yo and you find something near it then its also 5000 yo. But if you are wrong about the pyramids then you are wrong about the papyrus and all other artifacts near it. BTW there was no actual writing or artifacts found inside the pyramids.

Also the documents mentioned by people here are "paper"

 

[Colter]

Papyrus was used as late as 11th century factually. Its dating to 2500 BC is based on an already established chronology and is pure conjecture. That is if you claim that pyramids are 5000 yo and you find something near it then its also 5000 yo. But if you are wrong about the pyramids then you are wrong about the papyrus and all other artifacts near it. BTW there was no actual writing or artifacts found inside the pyramids.

Also the documents mentioned by people here are "paper"

Dead Sea Scrolls, earliest portions 408 BCE

 

[Rush 5]

First of all this is not papyrus on the picture ,its parchment paper. And second its dating is just as bogus as the Egyptian Pyramids.

 

[Aureus]

If I may I'd like to point out the fact that ages of any historical documents mentioned here is pure conjecture and myth.

......

All historical accounts and artwork of Ancient Empires like Rome Egypt and Greece and of Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar are complete fabrications based on much later writings of "Tacitus" and "Seutonius" and their contemporaries around 15th Century AD.

Calling all historical accounts and artwork of the classical world "pure conjecture", "myth" or "complete fabrications based on the writing of Tacitus and Suetonius" is just... I don't even know how to describe that kind of belief. I mean, Tacitus lived from 56 to 117 AD. Are you suggesting he didn't live then and that 'Tacitus' is actually a fake pen name of a writer in the 15th century?

Are Pompeii and Herculaneum just a giant hoax as well?

 

[Aureus]

First of all this is not papyrus on the picture ,its parchment paper. And second its dating is just as bogus as the Egyptian Pyramids.

Parchment 'paper' is animal skin.

You have to be a Poe. Creativity bonus points for being an Atheist Poe instead?

 

[Colter]

This quote is somewhat analogous to analyzing the imperfect records of Gods interaction with mankind over the ages, the redactions and unfortunate insertion of interpretation, the limitations of mans understanding and the severe curtailment of language in translating the spiritual experiences of men and women. Enemies to the God concept of religionist chip away at the faith of believers by pointing out certain inconsistencies in the historic records and theologies of religion.

"It is impossible accurately to determine, simultaneously, the exact location and the velocity of a moving object; any attempt at measurement of either inevitably involves change in the other. The same sort of a paradox confronts mortal man when he undertakes the chemical analysis of protoplasm. The chemist can elucidate the chemistry of dead protoplasm, but he cannot discern either the physical organization or the dynamic performance of living protoplasm. Ever will the scientist come nearer and nearer the secrets of life, but never will he find them and for no other reason than that he must kill protoplasm in order to analyze it. Dead protoplasm weighs the same as living protoplasm, but it is not the same." UB 1955​

Spirit born religionist collectively contain within them the "Living Word" of God however imperfect they are as people, their understanding of the Word, their ability to portray the Word in their lives, still they know the voice of the shepherd.


.

 

[Rush 5]

yes its animal skin parchment which is used to this day for Torah writings. But there is also such thing as a plant based parchment. In this case its animal skin.

 

[Rush 5]

Pompeii disaster did happened but did it happen when they claim it did? Recent analysis of feces found there shows a very diverse diet with exotic animals and spice from other continents and Far East which suggests a much later period of diverse international trading, similar to around Marco Polos times.

 

[Rush 5]

Just to clarify, my point of contention here is the accuracy of an established chronology not conspiracy. There is a very interesting theory published by a Russian academician Anatoly Fomenko that is a must read for all history buffs. Its called "History: Science or Fiction?" You don't have to agree with him but at the very least you'll learn a great deal more about history and the controversy surrounding various historical findings. Its a very deep research that he's done and its very interesting.

 

[Rush 5]

Calling all historical accounts and artwork of the classical world "pure conjecture", "myth" or "complete fabrications based on the writing of Tacitus and Suetonius" is just... I don't even know how to describe that kind of belief. I mean, Tacitus lived from 56 to 117 AD. Are you suggesting he didn't live then and that 'Tacitus' is actually a fake pen name of a writer in the 15th century?

Are Pompeii and Herculaneum just a giant hoax as well?

Ok maybe my statement was a little bold, but I did write a paper on the "12 Caesars" in college and the language and style its written in is way too advanced for the era its claimed to be from. It is Renaissance era hermetic literature depicting Astrological Rulers of the Houses or months July, August etc. And the same is with the Bible, Jesus and Julius are one and the same concept and both stand for the Sun, Ruler of Leo which starts in July and of course the are 12 variations for each sign.


Also all of the "Classical Greek Sculpture" which was "unearthed" during Renaissance fits the style of then leading sculptors like Michael Angelo and Bernini. And in fact it was Bernini who "restored" some of the most famous ones like Ludovisi Ares. Also if you compare the Greek frescos and pottery they are clearly from a different cultural era then the purported sculpture is.

Combine that with the fact that there are no weapons or metal gear from Ancient Rome or Greece to be found anywhere when there supposed to be tons of it from all the wars and conquests that you read about, leaves me firmly convinced that there is a lot of hooey that's written in our history textbooks.

 

[Rush 5]

This quote is somewhat analogous to analyzing the imperfect records of Gods interaction with mankind over the ages, the redactions and unfortunate insertion of interpretation, the limitations of mans understanding and the severe curtailment of language in translating the spiritual experiences of men and women. Enemies to the God concept of religionist chip away at the faith of believers by pointing out certain inconsistencies in the historic records and theologies of religion.


[Spirit born religionist collectively contain within them the "Living Word" of God however imperfect they are as people, their understanding of the Word, their ability to portray the Word in their lives, still they know the voice of the shepherd.


.

I'm not an enemy to the God concept, Im a scholar of metaphysics and hermetica actually and I have personal knowledge and experience of things far beyond normal everyday life. What I said here is equally "offensive" to atheists as it is to theists, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[BL2KTN]

I'm not an enemy to the God concept, Im a scholar of metaphysics and hermetica actually and I have personal knowledge and experience of things far beyond normal everyday life. What I said here is equally "offensive" to atheists as it is to theists, if that makes you feel any better.

You're a scholar? What are your degrees?