The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[Aldebaran]

What evidence do you have that Jesus did any miracles? How do you even know that the resurrection story is accurate?

It's in the bible.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well there have been others as well like Jim Jones, but the apostles didn't merely drink poison or commit mass suicide, they spent 3 years+ with Jesus teaching and ministering, then many more years after he left carrying the gospel message as they understood it. And their message wasn't anything like the false prophets that Jesus warned about.

The Heaven's Gate cult was around for even longer.

"According to Jacques Vallée in his 1979 book Messengers of Deception,[4] the group began in the early 1970s when Marshall Applewhite was recovering from a heart attack during which he claimed to have had a near-death experience. He came to believe that he and his nurse, Bonnie Nettles, were "the Two", that is, the two witnesses spoken of in the Book of Revelation 11:3[5] in the Bible."
Heaven's Gate (religious group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

As to false prophets, it isn't that surprising that one religion will accuse another of being false.

My point has to do with the theory that these guys did all this for a fraud, doesn't seem likely to me.

And yet that is exactly what you are claiming for the Heaven's Gate cult.

 

[Loudmouth]

It's in the bible.

And how do you know the Bible is accurate?

 

[Colter]

This part which you have bold is my evaluation, and thus opinion based on the facts as I have presented. The facts upon which I base my evaluation are obviously not opinion.



You said that all celestial beings have a mother and a father. Lucifer's mother and father are the Son and Mother Nature Spirit. I asked you who their parents are and you said it is I AM. But that doesn't make sense if they don't have a mother and a father.

You say that Lucifer is an atheist. But you also say he was born of divine beings. You say he knows who is parents are. Therefore he cannot be atheist since he knows the divine exists.

You say that Lucifer is a celestial being. However, in explaining Lucifer's poor decision-making, you referred to him as a man. This seems to be contradictory. Lucifer cannot be a man and a celestial being at the same time.

These are simple things that can be answered once you invent more story for your religion (or someone else does it for you). Don't be mad at the questions, be mad at the lack of fiction.



So his celestial parents didn't have parents?



Here are some ways in which the Urantia Book is wrong scientifically and reveals itself to have been written by people with early 1900's understandings of the universe (not celestial beings):

The described formation of the solar system is consistent with the Chamberlin-Moulton planetesimal hypothesis,[103] which though popular in the early part of the 20th century, was discarded by the 1940s after major flaws were noted.[104] The currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the solar system is based on the nebular hypothesis.[103]

According to the book's descriptions, the universe is hundreds of billions of years old and periodically expands and contracts — "respires" — at 2-billion-year intervals. Recent observations suggest that the true age of the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years.[105] The book does not support the big bang theory.[106]

A fundamental particle called an "ultimaton" is proposed, with an electron being composed of 100 ultimatons. The particle is not known to be described anywhere else and the concept is not supported by modern particle physics.[107]

The Andromeda Galaxy is claimed to be "almost one million" light years away, repeating the understandings of the 1920s,[108] but the galaxy is now understood to be 2.5 million light years away.

The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun.[109]

Some species are said to have evolved suddenly from single mutations without transitional species.[110] The theory originated with Dutch botanist Hugo De Vries but was short-lived and is not now supported.[111]

The book erroneously says that a solar eclipse was predicted in 1808 by the Native American prophet Tenskwatawa. The eclipse actually was predicted in late April 1806 and occurred on June 16, 1806.[112] In 2009, Urantia Foundation acknowledged the error and revised the book.[c]

Controversial statements about human races can be found in the book.[114] Gardner believes that William S. Sadler, who wrote some eugenicist works, had a hand in editing or writing the book, and that this is how the ideas were included.

-- The Urantia Book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So go ahead and whine about it being a Wikipedia article, then feel free to answer the issues.

The Wiki on the UB is a pretty fair synopsis. I refer people to it myself.

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, I've consistently said that Lucifer's parents were the Son of God and the Mother Spirit (their origins or creator is in the Universal Father who is a personification of the Infinite and Eternal I AM) All these beings are of vastly greater intelligence and creative power potential than mortals. Lucifer then would not see his parents as "Gods" nor the idea of the Universal Father as God. Its the only life he ever knew, man is the last link in the descending chain of "Sons of God".

 

[Colter]

The Heaven's Gate cult was around for even longer.

"According to Jacques Vallée in his 1979 book Messengers of Deception,[4] the group began in the early 1970s when Marshall Applewhite was recovering from a heart attack during which he claimed to have had a near-death experience. He came to believe that he and his nurse, Bonnie Nettles, were "the Two", that is, the two witnesses spoken of in the Book of Revelation 11:3[5] in the Bible."
Heaven's Gate (religious group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

As to false prophets, it isn't that surprising that one religion will accuse another of being false.



And yet that is exactly what you are claiming for the Heaven's Gate cult.

I'm curious, what was heavens gate doctrine?

And do I need to point out the bad ideas that Atheist have had over the ages?

 

[Loudmouth]

I'm curious, what was heavens gate doctrine?

It is listed on the wiki page that I have cited many times now.

And do I need to point out the bad ideas that Atheist have had over the ages?

The problem with religions is that they protect bad ideas with dogma.

 

[Colter]

It is listed on the wiki page that I have cited many times now.


The problem with religions is that they protect bad ideas with dogma.

Ok, here it is, I do now recall the space ship part. They were all dressed in robes on bunk beds when they were found.

Belief system[edit]

Heaven's Gate members believed the planet Earth was about to be "recycled" (wiped clean, renewed, refurbished, and rejuvenated), and the only chance to survive was to leave it immediately. While the group was formally against suicide, they defined "suicide" in their own context to mean "to turn against the Next Level when it is being offered"[10] and believed their "human" bodies were only vessels meant to help them on their journey. In conversation, when referring to a person or a person's body, they routinely used the word "vehicle"; when shown a picture of his son in an interview, Rio DiAngelo commented, "Look, there's the little vehicle."[citation needed]

The group believed in several paths for a person to leave the Earth and survive before the "recycling", one of which was intentioning love to this world strongly enough: "It is also possible that part of our test of faith is our loving of this world, even our flesh body, to the extent to be willing to leave it without any proof of the Next Level's existence."[citation needed]

The members of the group added to the first names they adopted in lieu of their original given names, which defines "children of the Next Level". This is mentioned in Applewhite's final video, Do's Final Exit, filmed March 19–20, 1997, just days prior to the suicides.[citation needed]

They believed "to be eligible for membership in the Next Level, humans would have to shed every attachment to the planet". This meant all members had to give up all human-like characteristics, such as their family, friends, sexuality, individuality, jobs, money, and possessions.[11]

These basic beliefs of the group stayed generally consistent over the years; however, "the details of their ideology were flexible enough to undergo modification over time."[12] There are examples of the group's adding or slightly changing their beliefs over time, such as: modifying the way one can enter the Next Level, changing the way they described themselves, placing more importance on the idea of Satan, and adding several other New Age concepts. One of these concepts was the belief of extraterrestrial walk-ins; when the group began, "Applewhite and Nettles taught their followers that they were extraterrestrial beings. However, after the notion of walk-ins became popular within the New Age subculture, the Two changed their tune and began describing themselves as extraterrestrial walk-ins."[12] The idea of walk-ins is very similar to the concept of being possessed by spirits. A walk-in can be defined as "an entity who occupies a body that has been vacated by its original soul". Heaven's Gate came to believe an extraterrestrial walk-in is "a walk-in that is supposedly from another planet."[13]

The concept of walk-ins aided Applewhite and Nettles in personally starting from clean slates. They were no longer the people they had been prior to the start of the group, but had taken on a new life; this concept gave them a way to "erase their human personal histories as the histories of souls who formerly occupied the bodies of Applewhite and Nettles."[13]

Another New Age belief Applewhite and Nettles adopted was the ancient astronaut hypothesis. The term "ancient astronauts" is used to refer to various forms of the concept that ufonauts[citation needed] visited our planet in the distant past.[12] Applewhite and Nettles took part of this concept and taught it as the belief that "aliens planted the seeds of current humanity millions of years ago, and have to come to reap the harvest of their work in the form of spiritual evolved individuals who will join the ranks of flying saucer crews. Only a select few members of humanity will be chosen to advance to this transhuman state. The rest will be left to wallow in the spiritually poisoned atmosphere of a corrupt world."[14] Only the individuals who chose to join Heaven's Gate, follow Applewhite and Nettle's belief, and make the sacrifices required by membership would be allowed to escape human suffering.[citation needed]

 

[Loudmouth]

Ok, here it is, I do now recall the space ship part. They were all dressed in robes on bunk beds when they were found.

Don't forget the Mormons, while we are at it. What about those witnesses?

"The Book of Mormon witnesses are a group of contemporaries of Joseph Smith, Jr. who said they saw the golden plates from which Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon. The most significant witnesses are the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses, all of whom allowed their names to be used on two separate statements included with the Book of Mormon."
Book of Mormon witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were persecuted and murdered from state to state to state. Smith himself was assassinated for his beliefs. Why would Smith take such a chance if what he claimed wasn't true?

 

[Colter]

Don't forget the Mormons, while we are at it. What about those witnesses?

"The Book of Mormon witnesses are a group of contemporaries of Joseph Smith, Jr. who said they saw the golden plates from which Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon. The most significant witnesses are the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses, all of whom allowed their names to be used on two separate statements included with the Book of Mormon."
Book of Mormon witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were persecuted and murdered from state to state to state. Smith himself was assassinated for his beliefs. Why would Smith take such a chance if what he claimed wasn't true?

They believed in what they were doing.

 

[Loudmouth]

They believed in what they were doing.

That's it?

 

[TheStraightener]

They believed in what they were doing.

Same as the people who flew planes into the world trade centre.

Same as the people who behead victims on camera.

The Spanish inquisition? The Crusades?


They all believed in what they were doing.

'Belief' is not a good reason to do things.

 

[Colter]

That's it?

You've raised legitimate insights about religionists devoted to diverse beliefs or doctrine to the point of giving their lives and how that doesn't validate one over another.

"While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric — circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial.

Rationalism is wrong when it assumes that religion is at first a primitive belief in something which is then followed by the pursuit of values. Religion is primarily a pursuit of values, and then there formulates a system of interpretative beliefs. It is much easier for men to agree on religious values — goals — than on beliefs — interpretations. And this explains how religion can agree on values and goals while exhibiting the confusing phenomenon of maintaining a belief in hundreds of conflicting beliefs — creeds. This also explains why a given person can maintain his religious experience in the face of giving up or changing many of his religious beliefs. Religion persists in spite of revolutionary changes in religious beliefs. Theology does not produce religion; it is religion that produces theologic philosophy.

That religionists have believed so much that was false does not invalidate religion because religion is founded on the recognition of values and is validated by the faith of personal religious experience. Religion, then, is based on experience and religious thought; theology, the philosophy of religion, is an honest attempt to interpret that experience. Such interpretative beliefs may be right or wrong, or a mixture of truth and error."



​

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

And how do you know the Bible is accurate?

The same way you can know any other work of ancient literature that intends to give a record of historical events is accurate in what it records for one.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Same as the people who flew planes into the world trade centre.

Same as the people who behead victims on camera.

The Spanish inquisition? The Crusades?


They all believed in what they were doing.

'Belief' is not a good reason to do things.

Who said it was?

 

[Colter]

Same as the people who flew planes into the world trade centre.

Same as the people who behead victims on camera.

The Spanish inquisition? The Crusades?


They all believed in what they were doing.

'Belief' is not a good reason to do things.

"The human heart is deceitful and above all things even desperately wicked."

People can rationalize and justify their own hateful and deceitful motives and project them onto a God created in their own image. Jesus gave us a rule of thumb to live by, "by their fruits yea shall know them."

For those of us who claim to be disciples of Christ, if we don't bear the fruits of his love then we are merely members of a social club.

 

[madaz]

Lucifer is more along the lines of an anti-theist theist. He believes God exists as do the demons and is against God, hence the "anti".

Well the Christian god Yahweh believes gods and demons exist too, because he is against them, he is anti-theist also, according to your logic.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Well the Christian god Yahweh believes gods and demons exist too, because he is against them, he is anti-theist also, according to your logic.

Correct. God is an anti-theist in the sense that He is against gods. The first commandment makes this clear.

 

[Colter]

Do you have a link to this information? Would like to see their reasoning behind who they identify as authors, as it goes against the majority opinion of NT scholars.

The Urantia Papers claim to be "revelation". It has a vast content including the entire life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth from birth to death and resurrection.

 

[madaz]

The Urantia Papers claim to be "revelation". It has a vast content including the entire life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth from birth to death and resurrection.

So they identify authors yet the author(s) of the source remains anonymous. My skeptical alarm is ringng.

 

[Aureus]

The same way you can know any other work of ancient literature that intends to give a record of historical events is accurate in what it records for one.

You really don't want to go down that route, since the Bible tends to fail and fall apart under the kind of scrutiny given to other historical documents.