The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[PsychoSarah]

Not according to other Atheist on this thread, I find a great deal of meaning in the joy and service to others, in the faith adventure of seeking Gods will and actually doing that will. I enjoy the communion of other believers tremendously.

The greatest example of one giving their life as a contribution to the spiritual life others would be Jesus.

But is it a service to others to be a missionary of something which isn't true? Sure, helping people in other ways would help, but that aspect overall wouldn't. What if I dedicated my life to spreading a belief in pink unicorns? Wouldn't the fact that they don't exist make that a waste of time on my part, because no one would benefit from it?

And also, again, not all atheists agree with each other. I personally do not care that this other person is an atheist, our philosophical views are unrelated to one another.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not according to other Atheist on this thread, I find a great deal of meaning in the joy and service to others, in the faith adventure of seeking Gods will and actually doing that will. I enjoy the communion of other believers tremendously.

The greatest example of one giving their life as a contribution to the spiritual life others would be Jesus.

I think we all agree that people can find meaning and joy by believing in ficititious religions.

 

[Colter]

Only saving those that believe in the salvation is not an act of altruism

There is nowhere for one to go in an increasingly spiritual universe if they don't want salvation.

 

[Loudmouth]

There is nowhere for one to go in an increasingly spiritual universe if they don't want salvation.

You would have to show that the spiritual is increasing.

 

[PsychoSarah]

There is nowhere for one to go in an increasingly spiritual universe if they don't want salvation.

Wanting salvation and believing it exists are very different things. Would I absolutely love to go to heaven and be happy forever? Yes. Do I think that will actually happen? No.

 

[Colter]

But is it a service to others to be a missionary of something which isn't true? Sure, helping people in other ways would help, but that aspect overall wouldn't. What if I dedicated my life to spreading a belief in pink unicorns? Wouldn't the fact that they don't exist make that a waste of time on my part, because no one would benefit from it?

And also, again, not all atheists agree with each other. I personally do not care that this other person is an atheist, our philosophical views are unrelated to one another.

Something that isn't true? Christ already demonstrated that life after death is true. The faintest flicker of faith is all that is important, that's where a growing soul of survival potential starts, irrespective of the relative ignorance of spiritual realities and such.

You could teach of pink unicorns, the few followers that you might acquire will be credited with faith regardless of the inaccuracy of their theological convictions. Primitive religious concepts serve as a kind of scaffolding for true revelatory religion.

 

[Colter]

Wanting salvation and believing it exists are very different things. Would I absolutely love to go to heaven and be happy forever? Yes. Do I think that will actually happen? No.

I'm already saved and I know it.

 

[Colter]

You would have to show that the spiritual is increasing.

I think you demands for proof is a cop out.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Something that isn't true? Christ already demonstrated that life after death is true. The faintest flicker of faith is all that is important, that's where a growing soul of survival potential starts, irrespective of the relative ignorance of spiritual realities and such.

You could teach of pink unicorns, the few followers that you might acquire will be credited with faith regardless of the inaccuracy of their theological convictions. Primitive religious concepts serve as a kind of scaffolding for true revelatory religion.

again, you are completely neglecting to account for the fact that there is the possibility your religious beliefs aren't accurate in regards to reality. You have to account for some potential you are wrong to understand my point. So let us use the hypothetical situation that you did pick the wrong religion, and the correct one is Islam. Would you not then think, that a person spreading Christianity would have wasted their life? Or, let us use your own opinion, do you not think that a Hindu missionary would be wasting their life, as per your beliefs you think they are spreading the wrong religion?

 

[Chany]

I think you demands for proof is a cop out.

I think your unwillingness to offer anything other then epistemological road-runner tactics and plain rejections of any sort of evidence to back up your claims is a cop out.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm already saved and I know it.

Unless you have more than belief to back that, there is 0 reason for me to be impacted by that statement. The point is, belief in something is not the same thing as wanting it. Heck, you can even believe something and not want it to be true, which is the case with me.

 

[Colter]

again, you are completely neglecting to account for the fact that there is the possibility your religious beliefs aren't accurate in regards to reality. You have to account for some potential you are wrong to understand my point. So let us use the hypothetical situation that you did pick the wrong religion, and the correct one is Islam. Would you not then think, that a person spreading Christianity would have wasted their life? Or, let us use your own opinion, do you not think that a Hindu missionary would be wasting their life, as per your beliefs you think they are spreading the wrong religion?

I see your point, I need to broaden your perspective on my concepts of spirituality, religion etc. First, this is the extent of my dogma as concerns the issue of salvation: Anyone, anywhere, inside or outside of any religion who is looking for God will find God. In fact if they are looking they have already found him, from there they will grow in understanding of him. The religion of Jesus was generic, Peter and Paul's Christian religion about Jesus began almost immediately to evolve into the inelastic, fragmented, institutionalized church that we have today. Christianity became a religion largely about Jesus not necessarily of Jesus. "By their fruits yea will know them."

I might point out that the valid point you make represents a value within your heart about how unjust and unfair such a world would be if a person was born into "the wrong religion" like some sort of lottery.

Everyone that has a relationship with God has a different perspective, what's important is that we have the relationship.

 

[Colter]

Unless you have more than belief to back that, there is 0 reason for me to be impacted by that statement. The point is, belief in something is not the same thing as wanting it. Heck, you can even believe something and not want it to be true, which is the case with me.

Again what you say is true, faith is personal and experiential, strictly between the person and God. You might have a similar experience, but my experience cant be yours and visa versa.

 

[Ken-1122]

I am doing something, I'm keeping hope alive during this materialistic winter of mechanistic sophistry, for future generations of believers whose work will culminate in the age of "light and life" when the gospel of the kingdom of heaven comes to full fruition. Eventually secular totalitarianism will die out along with the Atheist of the age.

If you will notice, Atheism and secularism is becoming more and more popular, and religious beliefs are becoming less and less popular. Maybe it will be the religious totalitarianism that will eventually die out! That appears to be the trend ya know.

Ken

 

[PsychoSarah]

Again what you say is true, faith is personal and experiential, strictly between the person and God. You might have a similar experience, but my experience cant be yours and visa versa.

So you agree that belief is not a fully conscious choice then?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I see your point, I need to broaden your perspective on my concepts of spirituality, religion etc. First, this is the extent of my dogma as concerns the issue of salvation: Anyone, anywhere, inside or outside of any religion who is looking for God will find God. In fact if they are looking they have already found him, from there they will grow in understanding of him. The religion of Jesus was generic, Peter and Paul's Christian religion about Jesus began almost immediately to evolve into the inelastic, fragmented, institutionalized church that we have today. Christianity became a religion largely about Jesus not necessarily of Jesus. "By their fruits yea will know them."

I might point out that the valid point you make represents a value within your heart about how unjust and unfair such a world would be if a person was born into "the wrong religion" like some sort of lottery.

Everyone that has a relationship with God has a different perspective, what's important is that we have the relationship.

I think you might be a bit idealistic there, I have been trying to find belief for years, nothing has really changed. In fact, reading the bible has contributed more to my atheism than any other action I have taken, because I just read it in order by myself without anyone cherry picking voices or making me repeat it was true mindlessly over and over. That the deity presented in the bible doesn't match the ideal people like to say it does is not helping either. If people were being honest to the text, god shouldn't agree with them in every way, because we are flawed humans, and realistically the god of the bible doesn't match up with any modern ideal, but rather than state that they don't question it out of fear, people warp god into a more acceptable ideal in their minds, read only certain versions, or simply never look at the doctrine they claim as the basis of their faith.

And as have many intellectuals have found, seeking out god when you already believe in it can destroy faith. Take Darwin for example, before his voyage he went to university to become a priest. The man died a true agnostic, unsure what to believe.

 

[Colter]

If you will notice, Atheism and secularism is becoming more and more popular, and religious beliefs are becoming less and less popular. Maybe it will be the religious totalitarianism that will eventually die out! That appears to be the trend ya know.

Ken

We don't have religious totalitarianism in the Western world, the secular revolt rightly diminished the power of the church. But that wasn't enough for the secularist, now they want to quash religion from society altogether.

Islam isn't receding, it's growing.

 

[Loudmouth]

We don't have religious totalitarianism in the Western world, the secular revolt rightly diminished the power of the church. But that wasn't enough for the secularist, now they want to quash religion from society altogether.

I, as an atheist, fully support your right to worship as you please, and your right to voice those beliefs in the public square.

What I don't support is using government resources to evangelize for your religion.

Can you understand the difference between the two?

 

[PsychoSarah]

We don't have religious totalitarianism in the Western world, the secular revolt rightly diminished the power of the church. But that wasn't enough for the secularist, now they want to quash religion from society altogether.

Islam isn't receding, it's growing.

No... Wanting churches not to be tax exempt and not allowing secular public schools to favor any religion is not an attempt to quash religion

 

[Colter]

I think you might be a bit idealistic there, I have been trying to find belief for years, nothing has really changed. In fact, reading the bible has contributed more to my atheism than any other action I have taken, because I just read it in order by myself without anyone cherry picking voices or making me repeat it was true mindlessly over and over. That the deity presented in the bible doesn't match the ideal people like to say it does is not helping either. If people were being honest to the text, god shouldn't agree with them in every way, because we are flawed humans, and realistically the god of the bible doesn't match up with any modern ideal, but rather than state that they don't question it out of fear, people warp god into a more acceptable ideal in their minds, read only certain versions, or simply never look at the doctrine they claim as the basis of their faith.

And as have many intellectuals have found, seeking out god when you already believe in it can destroy faith. Take Darwin for example, before his voyage he went to university to become a priest. The man died a true agnostic, unsure what to believe.

That was my experience as well, after my spiritual awakening I began in earnest my quest for understanding. Having been dragged to a moderate Methodist church as a kid, I did have some murky grasp of the NT. When I sat in earnest and read the OT I was stunned at how horrible the portrayal of God was in the minds of men in that age. How hacked up and inconsistent the stories were. Higher criticism of the Bible demonstrates that the OT books were redacted during the Babylonian captivity period after the Hebrews lost Jerusalem and the Israelites were scattered.

In time I came to understand that given time man tends to create God in mans own image, he assumes that deity must by default act and react as man would. Assuming that revelatory transactions occur, going forward the interpretation of those events as well as subsequent redactions and edits of scripture, further sifted through human minds, combined with cultural norms of the times, politics etc, all these leave a lot to be desired for trying to find a consistent foundation.