The Didache: Proof of Deviation From Christ's Teachings by Apostolic Fathers

[Valletta]

Do you have Didache: Complete Text?
Chapter Seven

Don't forget that the sacrament of Baptism saves us:
1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

Now the method of immersion is wonderful. But the word translated into "baptism" also means to wash. Pouring is certainly acceptable, as per the Bible the Holy Spirit can be poured out upon people:

Act 2:17-18 ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days
I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. RSVCE

It is easy to first adopt whatever your religion says and seemingly fit the Bible into supporting that belief. Although the Bible says that Jesus wants the children to come to him and the Bible says whole households were baptized, some Protestant denominations deny children the sacrament of Baptism. They say it is only a symbol, in contrast to what 1 Peter 3:20-21 tells us.

 

[David Lamb]

Don't forget that the sacrament of Baptism saves us:
1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

Now the method of immersion is wonderful. But the word translated into "baptism" also means to wash. Pouring is certainly acceptable, as per the Bible the Holy Spirit can be poured out upon people:

Act 2:17-18 ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days
I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. RSVCE

It is easy to first adopt whatever your religion says and seemingly fit the Bible into supporting that belief. Although the Bible says that Jesus wants the children to come to him and the Bible says whole households were baptized, some Protestant denominations deny children the sacrament of Baptism. They say it is only a symbol, in contrast to what 1 Peter 3:20-21 tells us.

Whatever else baptism does, according to the bible it does not save. When the jailer at Philippi asked what he had to do to be saved, the apostles answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It was only after he and his family had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved, that they were baptized. What about the 1 Peter passage? Just as the ark signifies the salvation God provided for Noah and his family, so baptism signifies the eternal salvation God provides for sinners who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Valletta]

.

Whatever else baptism does, according to the bible it does not save. When the jailer at Philippi asked what he had to do to be saved, the apostles answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It was only after he and his family had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved, that they were baptized. What about the 1 Peter passage? Just as the ark signifies the salvation God provided for Noah and his family, so baptism signifies the eternal salvation God provides for sinners who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you," is as clear as can be.

John 3:3-5 “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit”

 

[David Lamb]

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you," is as clear as can be.

John 3:3-5 “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit”

But to believe that baptism actually saves someone goes against so many other things we read in the bible. It is belief that saves. Jesus said:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

And John the Baptizer said:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

 

[Valletta]

But to believe that baptism actually saves someone goes against so many other things we read in the bible. It is belief that saves. Jesus said:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

And John the Baptizer said:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

Those passages you quoted are also true as is the following passage. We are saved and continue to be saved.

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

 

[prodromos]

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

And John the Baptizer said:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

So why aren't the demons saved?

 

[David Lamb]

So why aren't the demons saved?

Are you thinking of this verse:

“You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!” (Jas 2:19 NKJV)

The demons believe that their is one God. We don't read that they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour. Indeed, we don't read anywhere in the bible, as far as I'm aware, that God provides salvation for demons.

 

[prodromos]

Are you thinking of this verse:

“You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!” (Jas 2:19 NKJV)

The demons believe that their is one God. We don't read that they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour. Indeed, we don't read anywhere in the bible, as far as I'm aware, that God provides salvation for demons.

The demons confess that Jesus is the Christ, that He is the Son of God. You are claiming that is all that is needed for salvation.
In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus said the following to His disciples:
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation."
and also
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned"

 

[CoreyD]

No the Temple of God is not in Rome.

You don't even know what the temple of God, and you can say where it's not?
Is it not a fact that you are saying this merely because you can, and because you don't want to accept what the facts reveal?

The location of the temple is not Rome. That is not what the article said.
It read this way...
Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it.

There is no reason to think that Paul was referring to a physical structure in some location.
The Church is indeed the temple of God. 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; 2 Corinthians 6:14-17; Ephesians 2:19-22
You do not disagree with those scriptures, do you?

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22​

You know how hard it can be to remove stubborn stains. It's really hard work.

 

[CoreyD]

That’s not a commandment, but a universally accepted emergency procedure. Even the Orthodox will do that, for example, if someone has a tracheotomy.

And if you have neither [cold water nor warm water], pour water on the head three times, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

An emergency procedure for if there is no cold or warm water.
It said nothing about tracheotomy, or anything else.

The first instruction is to use cold water. If there is no cold water, use warm water.
It is not a universally accepted emergency procedure. It's a doctrine that was never taught by either Jesus or his apostles.

They did not even say why to use cold water, and why warm water. What is wrong with lukewarm water if it is not running water?

These are doctrines of the Apostolic fathers that were never necessary during the time of Jesus and his apostles.

All that was needed was a large body of water, so that the person could go down into it and come up - be immersed.
There is no scripture supporting the idea of pouring water on the head.... and three times at that.

 

[CoreyD]

We seem to have the same text but you seem to be drawing very different conclusions about what it means. You need to read the history of the Orthodox Church between the first and eleventh centuries.

Did I say different from what the text says? What did I say differently?
Tell me please, what your conclusion is and why. If it's an Orthodox view, do not worry to tell me.

 

[tampasteve]

Bah. I prefer the interpretation that the Didache is more of a Messianic Jewish midrash and a mere "starting point" of how a Christian should act. I have read it as well as texts the use it to expound on requirements, and they make a lot of sense in a Jewish context, which is what the 1st Christian communities lived in.

 

[David Lamb]

The demons confess that Jesus is the Christ, that He is the Son of God. You are claiming that is all that is needed for salvation.
In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus said the following to His disciples:
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation."
and also
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned"

The demons have to confess that Jesus is the Christ. As angelic beings, albeit fallen ones, they know who He is because before they fell they were with Him in heaven. But as I said in my previous post, we don't read anywhere in the bible of God providing salvation for demons. If the "whole creation" in Mark 16 meant that the gospel is to be preached to every created thing, then the apostles themselves did not obey it, for we don't find them preaching to donkeys, mountains, ants, or demons, yet they are all part of creation.

The next verse does mention baptism with belief, because those who believe are to be baptized. The baptism itself doesn't save them, but a person who says, "I believe in Jesus Christ", then refuses to do what He commands (including believers being baptized) casts severe doubt on the genuineness of their belief.

 

[CoreyD]

It only gives it as an option when there is not sufficient water for full immersion. There are Christian communities that exist in places where water is scarce. What would you have them do?

Please point out where you read that this instruction is for when there is not sufficient water for full immersion.
I hope this is not a trick question, because I have one for you. What would you do in communities that don't appreciate you preaching to people? Would you decide to stop preaching to people, and instead just smile at them?

In communities where there is a lot of filthy water, and there are no streams, an artificial pool of water is made available.
After all, baptism is immersion, so you cannot replace baptism with something else, for the sake of doing so quickly in fear the person runs away. There is enough time to baptize a repentant person.

When the Ethiopian Eunuch understood what Phillip showed him, and he wanted to commit, he stopped the Charioteer when he saw a body of water.
If he was riding through a barren desert, would he have asked the Charioteer to hand Phillip a water bottle to pour water on his head?
Not if he wanted to get Baptized. When he got through the desert, and a body of water was available, he would be baptized - immersed in water.

 

[CoreyD]

Don't forget that the sacrament of Baptism saves us:
1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

Now the method of immersion is wonderful. But the word translated into "baptism" also means to wash. Pouring is certainly acceptable, as per the Bible the Holy Spirit can be poured out upon people:

Act 2:17-18 ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days
I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. RSVCE

Are you saying that baptism was not by immersion, and persons were not immersed in holy spirit?

It is easy to first adopt whatever your religion says and seemingly fit the Bible into supporting that belief.

That appears to be what you are doing. Aren't you?

Although the Bible says that Jesus wants the children to come to him and the Bible says whole households were baptized, some Protestant denominations deny children the sacrament of Baptism. They say it is only a symbol, in contrast to what 1 Peter 3:20-21 tells us.

I don't know about them, but I do know that to assume that a household being baptized, included babies is clearly stretching it to fit a preconceived idea / belief.

Do you think the babies feared God, because according to Acts 10:2, Cornelius was "a devout man who feared God with all his household".
If you believe that babies fear God, and can repent and be baptized, there is nothing I can show you from scripture, because your belief trumps scripture.
Is that what you believe?

 

[CoreyD]

Whatever else baptism does, according to the bible it does not save. When the jailer at Philippi asked what he had to do to be saved, the apostles answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It was only after he and his family had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved, that they were baptized. What about the 1 Peter passage? Just as the ark signifies the salvation God provided for Noah and his family, so baptism signifies the eternal salvation God provides for sinners who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi David.
Can you please read 1 Peter 3:21, word for word. Without interpreting it.
Afterward, can you please say... without interpreting it, what Peter says saves.

 

[CoreyD]

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you," is as clear as can be.

John 3:3-5 “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit”

The sad result of interpretation of scripture. It really throws scripture in the bin, to be replaced by our knowledge.

 

[CoreyD]

But to believe that baptism actually saves someone goes against so many other things we read in the bible. It is belief that saves. Jesus said:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

And John the Baptizer said:

“"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."” (Joh 3:36 NKJV)

Only if one holds on to one text and bends every text around it, while dismissing all the other related ones, instead of putting them all together, David.
This is what I tried to show you in this thread, but you aren't seeing it.

 

[CoreyD]

Those passages you quoted are also true as is the following passage. We are saved and continue to be saved.

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

I really hope David sees that saving is a continuous process that involves many requirements.
I can't seem to get this through to him.
Hopefully, you can.

 

[Valletta]

Are you saying that baptism was not by immersion, and persons were not immersed in holy spirit?


That appears to be what you are doing. Aren't you?


I don't know about them, but I do know that to assume that a household being baptized, included babies is clearly stretching it to fit a preconceived idea / belief.

Do you think the babies feared God, because according to Acts 10:2, Cornelius was "a devout man who feared God with all his household".
If you believe that babies fear God, and can repent and be baptized, there is nothing I can show you from scripture, because your belief trumps scripture.
Is that what you believe?

Baptism replaced circumcision. The faith of the parents was enough to have an infant circumcised. Jesus fulfilled what was prefigured in the old and there is nothing in the NT about excluding infants from Baptism or that the faith of the parents was no longer good enough. To the contrary, as I said, Jesus wanted the children to come to Him. Today it is as it was, an adult convert comes into the Church by first believing and repenting and then being baptized. An infant is Baptized if the parents are already part of the Church, based on the faith of the parents. It should not be a surprise that there is not a specific account of a baby being baptized, beyond the mention of households, since a baby cannot relay his or her personal experience. There is no "trumping" of Holy Scripture, that which is passed down from Jesus through the Apostles is on equal ground. Unfortunately a portion of the faith was lost because of the fervor to reject much of what was passed down if not explicitly spelled out in the Bible. As to immersion, there is no statement requiring immersion. There is no example in the Bible of anyone being baptized in North America either, or in later centuries. Or how about after the sun went down? The key is an understanding of what is taking place and realizing that water is the sign of the sacrament, not immersion. Jesus did not leave us a rule book.