The Demise of Evolution

[Lazarus Long]

There is nothing in the Noah story to suggest it was at the same time as the last ice age, however, in my opinion Noah would have had to have been located in a place that either was the Black Sea or very much like it. The tsunami in Madagascar would have been 205 m above sea level, if that hit an area where Noah's boat was it would have flipped over and over. Likewise, with a flash flood at the base of one of these mountain ranges. But something like the Black sea filling up like a bathtub would work. The fact that we see these three events occurring at the same time in Madagascar, Black Sea, and North America is evidence of one giant world wide event. Again, what was described.

What time is that?

 

[Kylie]

Are you familiar with a flash flood? Genesis says two things, both distinct. One, the flood came over the top of the mountain, and two the flood was 30 cubits deep. Imagine 40 days and nights of rain as a result of the water sent up into the stratosphere coming down on top of glaciated highlands. 100% of this water will come down the mountain as a flash flood, added to this a lot of snow and ice will melt as well. When it hits the valley it is 30-45 feet deep and travels across the continent. We can calculate how deep this flood was because ripple marks are proportional to the water depth. What we thought were odd hills turns out to be huge ripple marks from this flood. If you saw those disney movies about the ice age they depict a huge ice dam collapsing causing a flood. This is because we know there was a huge flood and the only explanation we had was that as the ice age ended the ice melted but was caught behind some kind of huge ice dam. But there is no mechanism that we have witnessed in modern days that as glaciers melt they dam up huge lakes. We can even see Greenland which is in many ways similar to the last ice age, the lakes form and drain periodically. There is no huge ice dam with a giant lake forming. So the movie ice age was based on the geology that we know there were these huge floods, especially from the Himalayas and Rockies.

So you are claiming the flood could cover the tops of the mountains simply because it rained there?

By that logic, I could claim that any rain that ever falls on a mountain is a flood 10 millimeters deep that covered a mountain a thousand meters high.

Your attempt to force the two claims to agree seems very strained and isn't at all convincing.

We also know that a huge number of species went extinct at this same time. No one has a plausible explanation. One theory says man hunted hundreds of different species to extinction on all six continents at the end of the last ice age yet we don't see any evidence of this in bones or skins in the archaeological record. Another theory is that man brought diseases which caused over 200 different species to go extinct on 6 different continents. Again, really not plausible. Deadly diseases strike when you are in large herds and the animals can infect one another. Some of these animals like saber tooth tiger do not travel in large herds. Second, what disease would cause many different species to go extinct? It is a theory without any evidence other than the fact the species went extinct. But the flood described by Noah would account for them going extinct, it would also explain why 16 out of the 18 domesticated animals on earth are from mesopotamia (two exceptions are Llamas and guinea pigs).

There was an extinction at this time? So you've dated the flood somehow and discovered that it matches with an extinction? I'd like to see some evidence to support this claim please.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Science neither confirm nor deny God, ie science is neutral, we know that. Science evaluate stuff based on data, knowledge and evidence, we know that too. And science does not investigate everything ie it is not all encompassing - we know that but many people like to think that it is as good as everything. In fact, there are MANY aspects of our life where we do not use science to confirm – instead we use our senses, intuition, power of observation, faith and probability, which works too.


For instance: Do you always use science to prove human feelings (love, anger, greed, hatred etc). Does someone who is dating another person use science?

Secondly, science does not and cannot explain things in the spiritual realm --but spirits do exist on earth. In your part of the world, America and Europe, you may not see this more than people in Asia (even though some Hollywood movies about true stories of haunting in USA and Europe – but science won't confirm the haunting, ghosts or spirits) .

I will try to keep this true incident brief (and it is only ONE of the many such spiritual things that happen). Many years ago, a close friend at same church was on the verge of death, from a lightning strike. He was the only Christian among his many siblings, and as he laid comatose for a few days in hospital, his family decided to consult the temple medium (a pagan priest) who communicated with spirits. Although our church was not agreeable, however, we cannot stop the family. As the medium called upon ithe spirit, he did something to an ordinary porcelain bowl -- he cast a spell, so to speak. He then threw the bowl on the floor and if it broke, my friend would die, and if the bowl didn’t break, my friend would live -- the medium said. At first throw, the porcelain bowl didn’t break. My friend’s family asked him to throw it up in the air so it would fall from a great height. The medium did, the bowl didn’t break. They requested the medium to throw even high, as much as 15 feet – my friend 's brother told me later-- the bowl dropped to ground and didn’t break. He was asked to repeat the highest throw, but the result was same. After the ceremony ended and the spirit’s presence left, the priest, to show that he did not use a fake porcelain bowl, dropped it to the ground, and it broke into pieces. The family told the church members about what they saw. Although I did not witness the process, however, I am sure they would not lie. They even believed that their brother would live. A few days later, however, he died. The siblings, in a state of deep grief, related the same temple process to people who came for the funeral ie they could not be lying.

Can science explain how the bowl didn’t smashed into pieces when thrown a few times from high during the spiritual process, and after the spirit left, it broke when thrown from a few feet above ground?

Now, this is not the only unexplained spiritual phenomena. There are many in this part of the world. In about 2010, in Singapore, one incident even went to court as the woman, who used to have a snake spirit, sued the Catholic church, blaming them for mental and physical pain she felt after she was exorcised. During the hearing, the priests and church members narrated that the woman could move like a snake on the floor during the exorcism. Can science explain such spiritual phenomena? And there are MANY more such cases in Asia.

Today, we travelled in aeroplanes, sent text messages to people far far away in the blink of an eye, and do gene therapy.... but these do not mean that science and technology have found everything, far far from it. But some people seem to think it has discovered most things, as good as all things or almost everything. When science hasn't discovered God, some people claim that creator doesn't exist because science hasn't confirmed it -- ie going against how science reasons, and making a false claim.

Science does not say non-scientific explanations are unreliable or wrong. But some people say that millions of lifeforms does not mean God created them -- just because science didn't prove it. They claim that life started on its own and evolved beautifully into millions of life : and even though they have no proof, they like to imagine that their hypothesis hold water, which is contradictory to their claim to believe in scientific proofs only.

Some people deny the power of observations, common sense, intuition, probability, process of elimination etc. Does science tell you to do so? Or are you denying your basic intelligence in order to make it more complicated and intellectual? Or you deny the Creator's existence and creation because of personal ANTI-GOD feeling --- that's the truth isn't?

Anecdotes are not evidence, but both those anecdotes can be explained by non-supernatural events. I can think of at least three explanations for the bowl story.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

But the flood described by Noah would account for them going extinct, it would also explain why 16 out of the 18 domesticated animals on earth are from mesopotamia (two exceptions are Llamas and guinea pigs).

Could you support that claim? The evidence I see says most domesticated animals originated somewhere other than Mesopotamia. Let me throw a few out there for you to explain:
Pigs
Cattle
Chickens
Water Buffalo

 

[ZNP]

What time is that?

If you look at post 732 he is using 10-11 thousand years ago, I am fine with that number. The best evidence for these three events occurring at the same time is around 8,000 years ago. You need to understand that it would be nice if we could put an exact year on these things but we can't. Perhaps the closest we can get with carbon dating would be a range of 100 years, but more likely 500 years.

It should be noted that just because the glaciers had retreated from the land at this point the mountains would still be glaciated highlands. I think the melting of ice and snow on land is part of the equation because the bible says the waters "multiplied".

Someone said that the Black Sea flooded over a period of 10 years. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be able to measure it with such accuracy. I didn't read the book they referenced, but the blurb on it said that the evidence pointed to it flooding rapidly. 10 years for a Geologist is the equivalent of the term "rapidly". But I am not aware of any tools we have that could distinguish 1 year from 10 years for something that took place 8,000 years ago.

But you are talking about the extinction of these creatures. It is extremely difficult to put an exact date on it. We find skeletons, we can date those skeletons, but it is very difficult to say that animal died in the extinction event. So as we gather skeletons around the globe and date them we get an idea, but if your carbon dating is +/- 500 years then saying 8,000 years ago is putting it in that range. The event could have been a flood that took place over 150 days, but we still couldn't predict the actual event to more than that accuracy.

 

[ZNP]

That said, ice cores can be much more specific. If this event of 40 days and nights of rain included rain at Antarctica or Greenland we might be able to get a precise date from ice cores.

 

[VirOptimus]

If you look at post 732 he is using 10-11 thousand years ago, I am fine with that number. The best evidence for these three events occurring at the same time is around 8,000 years ago. You need to understand that it would be nice if we could put an exact year on these things but we can't. Perhaps the closest we can get with carbon dating would be a range of 100 years, but more likely 500 years.

It should be noted that just because the glaciers had retreated from the land at this point the mountains would still be glaciated highlands. I think the melting of ice and snow on land is part of the equation because the bible says the waters "multiplied".

Someone said that the Black Sea flooded over a period of 10 years. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be able to measure it with such accuracy. I didn't read the book they referenced, but the blurb on it said that the evidence pointed to it flooding rapidly. 10 years for a Geologist is the equivalent of the term "rapidly". But I am not aware of any tools we have that could distinguish 1 year from 10 years for something that took place 8,000 years ago.

But you are talking about the extinction of these creatures. It is extremely difficult to put an exact date on it. We find skeletons, we can date those skeletons, but it is very difficult to say that animal died in the extinction event. So as we gather skeletons around the globe and date them we get an idea, but if your carbon dating is +/- 500 years then saying 8,000 years ago is putting it in that range. The event could have been a flood that took place over 150 days, but we still couldn't predict the actual event to more than that accuracy.

There was no worlwide flood, that is settled.

 

[Speedwell]

That said, ice cores can be much more specific. If this event of 40 days and nights of rain included rain at Antarctica or Greenland we might be able to get a precise date from ice cores.

The real question is, why bother? Why take such pains to try and fit scientific findings into a story which may have no determinable basis in historical fact?

 

[ZNP]

The real question is, why bother? Why take such pains to try and fit scientific findings into a story which may have no determinable basis in historical fact?

There are several things that are clearly historical fact.

1. Domesticated animals have been a major reason for the success of European culture. We had horses when those in the New World didn't. We had childhood diseases associated with the herds we raised (small pox, measles, etc) when the natives didn't. These were huge reasons for the success of this culture.

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).

3. There was a major extinction of approximately 200 different large species of animal at the same time around the world on all 6 continents and we still have not come up with a plausible explanation.

4. We are currently in the sixth major extinction on this planet and understanding how to respond could be extremely important for the survival of our species. For example, they are creating seed banks to protect the DNA information of all these species (whether they are endangered or not). This could help us rebound from the extinction event in a tiny fraction of the time. The concept behind this is the same as the concept behind Noah keeping animals alive.

 

[Lazarus Long]

There are several things that are clearly historical fact.

1. Domesticated animals have been a major reason for the success of European culture. We had horses when those in the New World didn't. We had childhood diseases associated with the herds we raised (small pox, measles, etc) when the natives didn't. These were huge reasons for the success of this culture.

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).

3. There was a major extinction of approximately 200 different large species of animal at the same time around the world on all 6 continents and we still have not come up with a plausible explanation.

4. We are currently in the sixth major extinction on this planet and understanding how to respond could be extremely important for the survival of our species. For example, they are creating seed banks to protect the DNA information of all these species (whether they are endangered or not). This could help us rebound from the extinction event in a tiny fraction of the time. The concept behind this is the same as the concept behind Noah keeping animals alive.

Dinosaurs!

 

[Speedwell]

There are several things that are clearly historical fact.

1. Domesticated animals have been a major reason for the success of European culture. We had horses when those in the New World didn't. We had childhood diseases associated with the herds we raised (small pox, measles, etc) when the natives didn't. These were huge reasons for the success of this culture.

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).

3. There was a major extinction of approximately 200 different large species of animal at the same time around the world on all 6 continents and we still have not come up with a plausible explanation.

4. We are currently in the sixth major extinction on this planet and understanding how to respond could be extremely important for the survival of our species. For example, they are creating seed banks to protect the DNA information of all these species (whether they are endangered or not). This could help us rebound from the extinction event in a tiny fraction of the time. The concept behind this is the same as the concept behind Noah keeping animals alive.

And what does any of that have to do with an ancient flood legend which may or may not contain echos of some actual flood somewhere?

 

[ZNP]

And what does any of that have to do with an ancient flood legend which may or may not contain echos of some actual flood somewhere?

The story is a clear explanation of why these facts are so. It explains why Mesopotamia has the overwhelming majority of domesticated animals, it explains why civilizations on other continents didn't, it explains why all those large ungulates went extinct 8-10 thousand years ago. It tells us what Noah did. Whether you think the story is true or not is irrelevant, it is the only explanation we currently have for all of these things that is supported with evidence. The fact that this "legend" as you call it is repeated in over 100 different cultures, many of which refer to a boat saving the animals alive, is evidence. It is difficult for archaeologists to ignore or discount.

 

[Speedwell]

The story is a clear explanation of why these facts are so. It explains why Mesopotamia has the overwhelming majority of domesticated animals, it explains why civilizations on other continents didn't, it explains why all those large ungulates went extinct 8-10 thousand years ago. It tells us what Noah did. Whether you think the story is true or not is irrelevant, it is the only explanation we currently have for all of these things that is supported with evidence. The fact that this "legend" as you call it is repeated in over 100 different cultures, many of which refer to a boat saving the animals alive, is evidence. It is difficult for archaeologists to ignore or discount.

So you are saying that the various flood legends including the one in the Bible have some possible relationship to an ancient flood of some kind. And...?

 

[sesquiterpene]

There are several things that are clearly historical fact.

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).

Can you show me this list? I think you have engaged in some cherry-picking here. Dogs were domesticated so long ago it's not clear where they were first domesticated. Horses, chickens, donkeys and camels all likely came from outside Mesopotamia - and if you're counting New World domesticates you need to include alpaca and turkeys.

 

[pitabread]

The fact that this "legend" as you call it is repeated in over 100 different cultures, many of which refer to a boat saving the animals alive, is evidence. It is difficult for archaeologists to ignore or discount.

Humans are storytellers and humans often borrow elements or even repeat the same stories over and over. That doesn't offer any veracity as to the factual nature of the story itself.

I can find hundreds of alien abduction stories from different cultures but that doesn't mean that alien abductions are real.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

All of the wonderful examples listed by other posters here on how animals have dance, and song (wolves, etc) are examples of soul. Termites have tremendous architecture, really a brilliant design. But it isn't a "living" soul. We have found fossilized termite mounds 100 million years old that are identical to the ones we see today. By contrast humans soul is living, evolving, changing. Yes, we look at a Bower bird as being "artistic" but not in the way humans are. John Lennon was an artist, but we don't consider someone who sings a John Lennon song to be an artist simply because they sing the same song. All of these creatures and examples given of "art" and "design" and "beauty", is it living? Look at how our music is living -- consider country, jazz, R&B, rock and roll, classical. By contrast these creatures are singing classical for 10,000 years, no evolution. Is there any scientific evidence that the song of the wolves has changed since Columbus discovered America?

So 'soul' is the capacity for dynamic artistic expression?

As it happens, many animals change their songs over time, picking up and adapting songs or parts of songs from others and reworking them - some birds do it and whale song is a great example. Does this mean they have souls?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

2. Second historical fact -- only 2 out of 18 domesticated animals were not from mesopotamia (guinea pigs and Llamas).

I already pointed out this is an erroneous claim, and you're just ignoring that error. That doesn't make your claim correct, it just shows dishonesty. If you'd care to support this claim I'll be interested to see your evidence. If not, please stop making it.

 

[sesquiterpene]

I already pointed out this is an erroneous claim, and you're just ignoring that error. That doesn't make your claim correct, it just shows dishonesty. If you'd care to support this claim I'll be interested to see your evidence. If not, please stop making it.

For some reason I didn't see your post before I composed mine - sorry about that. I'd like to add another contrary example: the silkworm, first domesticated in China over 5000 years ago. From Wikipedia I learned that it also is served as food after it has finished making silk.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The story is a clear explanation of why these facts are so. It explains why Mesopotamia has the overwhelming majority of domesticated animals, it explains why civilizations on other continents didn't, it explains why all those large ungulates went extinct 8-10 thousand years ago. It tells us what Noah did. Whether you think the story is true or not is irrelevant, it is the only explanation we currently have for all of these things that is supported with evidence. The fact that this "legend" as you call it is repeated in over 100 different cultures, many of which refer to a boat saving the animals alive, is evidence. It is difficult for archaeologists to ignore or discount.

None of that logic follows with your claims, or even the Bible, or even archaeological evidence.

 

[ZNP]

I already pointed out this is an erroneous claim, and you're just ignoring that error. That doesn't make your claim correct, it just shows dishonesty. If you'd care to support this claim I'll be interested to see your evidence. If not, please stop making it.

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