The Demise of Evolution

[ZNP]

This forum is not

The geologists will tell you that at the end of the last ice age there were great ice dams in the mountains that collapsed causing massive floods to sweep across the land with the water 30-40 feet thick.

This forum is not solely for geologists so this needs some more explanation to help everyone else understand. When the meteorite hit the ocean it vaporized the water, not evaporated. This is different, the meteorite hit with such force that they compare these collisions to atomic bombs. That water was vaporized, went into the Stratosphere (which is higher than the tops of the Himalayan mountains) encircled the globe and then returned to the earth as it condensed and rained. However, condensation requires condensation nuclei, don't know how much dust there would be in the Stratosphere. This water coming back down would therefore be much warmed than the ice and snow it is hitting, hence 40 days and nights of rain would certainly cause a lot of this snow and ice to melt. Water from the rain would be unable to infiltrate bedrock and ice, so 100% of this rain falling on these mountain tops would come cascading down as a flash flood. The theory that there were ice dams to me is flawed and simply the best explanation the scientists could come up with. I don't see there being ice dams, I simply see this as a flash flood coming down from the tops of the mountains which is from the rain and also from the melting ice and snow on top of these mountains. What the geologists do know is that these huge floods swept across India and the US at the end of the last ice age. We also know that the Black sea flooded at this time as well (there is archaeological evidence of a town at the bottom of the black sea). This was because during the ice age the sea level dropped because water was locked up as ice on the land. When this water ran back into the ocean the sea level rose, the Bhosphorous then flooded the Black Sea.

 

[ZNP]

This forum is not

The geologists will tell you that at the end of the last ice age there were great ice dams in the mountains that collapsed causing massive floods to sweep across the land with the water 30-40 feet thick.

This forum is not solely for geologists so this needs some more explanation to help everyone else understand. When the meteorite hit the ocean it vaporized the water, not evaporated. This is different, the meteorite hit with such force that they compare these collisions to atomic bombs. That water was vaporized, went into the Stratosphere (which is higher than the tops of the Himalayan mountains) encircled the globe and then returned to the earth as it condensed and rained. However, condensation requires condensation nuclei, don't know how much dust there would be in the Stratosphere. This water coming back down would therefore be much warmed than the ice and snow it is hitting, hence 40 days and nights of rain would certainly cause a lot of this snow and ice to melt. Water from the rain would be unable to infiltrate bedrock and ice, so 100% of this rain falling on these mountain tops would come cascading down as a flash flood. The theory that there were ice dams to me is flawed and simply the best explanation the scientists could come up with. I don't see there being ice dams, I simply see this as a flash flood coming down from the tops of the mountains which is from the rain and also from the melting ice and snow on top of these mountains. What the geologists do know is that these huge floods swept across India and the US at the end of the last ice age. We also know that the Black sea flooded at this time as well (there is archaeological evidence of a town at the bottom of the black sea). This was because during the ice age the sea level dropped because water was locked up as ice on the land. When this water ran back into the ocean the sea level rose, the Bhosphorous then flooded the Black Sea.

 

[Ophiolite]

The theory that there were ice dams to me is flawed and simply the best explanation the scientists could come up with.

Personal incredulity was never popular as an investigative technique at my alma mater when I graduated with a geology degree. Was it different for you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

This forum is not

This forum is not solely for geologists so this needs some more explanation to help everyone else understand. When the meteorite hit the ocean it vaporized the water, not evaporated. This is different, the meteorite hit with such force that they compare these collisions to atomic bombs. That water was vaporized, went into the Stratosphere (which is higher than the tops of the Himalayan mountains) encircled the globe and then returned to the earth as it condensed and rained. However, condensation requires condensation nuclei, don't know how much dust there would be in the Stratosphere. This water coming back down would therefore be much warmed than the ice and snow it is hitting, hence 40 days and nights of rain would certainly cause a lot of this snow and ice to melt. Water from the rain would be unable to infiltrate bedrock and ice, so 100% of this rain falling on these mountain tops would come cascading down as a flash flood. The theory that there were ice dams to me is flawed and simply the best explanation the scientists could come up with. I don't see there being ice dams, I simply see this as a flash flood coming down from the tops of the mountains which is from the rain and also from the melting ice and snow on top of these mountains. What the geologists do know is that these huge floods swept across India and the US at the end of the last ice age. We also know that the Black sea flooded at this time as well (there is archaeological evidence of a town at the bottom of the black sea). This was because during the ice age the sea level dropped because water was locked up as ice on the land. When this water ran back into the ocean the sea level rose, the Bhosphorous then flooded the Black Sea.

The Himalayan mountains did not exist at the time of the last great asteroid strike. That was sixtyfive million years ago. You are desperately mixing and matching events that happened at wildly different times. The Black Sea flood was a very slow one. People and livestock could have crawled away from it. Buildings cannot crawl. They were covered by water.

 

[ZNP]

Personal incredulity was never popular as an investigative technique at my alma mater when I graduated with a geology degree. Was it different for you?

The studies I have read discuss the flood that came down out of the mountains. They dated these floods to the end of the last ice age. So, they hypothesized ice dams. The idea being that the glaciers melted in such a way as to create large dams with huge lakes behind them. However, as I just said in a previous post "the present is the key to the past". We don't see that in Greenland, instead we see these lakes periodically draining, and then flowing out the bottom of the glacier. There is very good evidence for the flood, but not for the "ice dam" as the process by which a retreating glacier causes a flood.

 

[ZNP]

If anyone would like to read about these asteroid strikes at the end of the last ice age

Massive crater under Greenland’s ice points to climate-altering impact in the time of humans

Scientists Debate Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami

 

[Kylie]

That is an interpretation of what is said, I have already said that didn't happen, but it only proves that interpretation is wrong. It is a reasonable interpretation from the word because it says the high mountains were covered, however it also says the waters rose up 15 cubits. That is less than 45 feet. So clearly it is not saying the water was a mile deep which is how many interpret it similar to what you just wrote.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

This is why we need geologists to step in and explain. At the end of the last ice age as the ice melted there were great ice dams in the mountains with huge lakes. From that dam upward the mountains were covered with ice and water. When these dams broke geologists have discovered the biggest floods ever seen swept down from the mountains and across the land. This is true in India (Himalayas) and the US (Rockies). So yes, the tops of the highest mountains were covered, and yes we can calculate that this flood that rushed across the land was between 30 and 40 feet deep.

So how could a flood 45 feet deep cover the tops of the highest mountains?

 

[Ophiolite]

The studies I have read discuss the flood that came down out of the mountains. They dated these floods to the end of the last ice age. So, they hypothesized ice dams. The idea being that the glaciers melted in such a way as to create large dams with huge lakes behind them. However, as I just said in a previous post "the present is the key to the past". We don't see that in Greenland, instead we see these lakes periodically draining, and then flowing out the bottom of the glacier. There is very good evidence for the flood, but not for the "ice dam" as the process by which a retreating glacier causes a flood.

So let's see citations to these studies and a concise, but comprehensive analysis of how they support your contention. Failing that all we have is an unsupported opinion. I don't have much regard for unsupported opinions. (But since that was an opinion you could just disregard it. I suspect you will.)

 

[ZNP]

So how could a flood 45 feet deep cover the tops of the highest mountains?

Are you familiar with a flash flood? Genesis says two things, both distinct. One, the flood came over the top of the mountain, and two the flood was 30 cubits deep. Imagine 40 days and nights of rain as a result of the water sent up into the stratosphere coming down on top of glaciated highlands. 100% of this water will come down the mountain as a flash flood, added to this a lot of snow and ice will melt as well. When it hits the valley it is 30-45 feet deep and travels across the continent. We can calculate how deep this flood was because ripple marks are proportional to the water depth. What we thought were odd hills turns out to be huge ripple marks from this flood. If you saw those disney movies about the ice age they depict a huge ice dam collapsing causing a flood. This is because we know there was a huge flood and the only explanation we had was that as the ice age ended the ice melted but was caught behind some kind of huge ice dam. But there is no mechanism that we have witnessed in modern days that as glaciers melt they dam up huge lakes. We can even see Greenland which is in many ways similar to the last ice age, the lakes form and drain periodically. There is no huge ice dam with a giant lake forming. So the movie ice age was based on the geology that we know there were these huge floods, especially from the Himalayas and Rockies.

We also know that a huge number of species went extinct at this same time. No one has a plausible explanation. One theory says man hunted hundreds of different species to extinction on all six continents at the end of the last ice age yet we don't see any evidence of this in bones or skins in the archaeological record. Another theory is that man brought diseases which caused over 200 different species to go extinct on 6 different continents. Again, really not plausible. Deadly diseases strike when you are in large herds and the animals can infect one another. Some of these animals like saber tooth tiger do not travel in large herds. Second, what disease would cause many different species to go extinct? It is a theory without any evidence other than the fact the species went extinct. But the flood described by Noah would account for them going extinct, it would also explain why 16 out of the 18 domesticated animals on earth are from mesopotamia (two exceptions are Llamas and guinea pigs).

 

[ZNP]

It occurred to me that the reason we are having trouble understanding the wording of Genesis is that it is very specific in the description and very brief. The high hills are covered or the high mountains, depending on the translation, it seems some interpretations switched to hills because that sounds so far fetched, but Young's literal translation makes it clear that these are the highest mountains that are "covered". Then the second key point is that the flood is 30 cubits, that is only about 45 feet. That is not even the height of a hill. So what this is saying is that flood from the top of the mountain down to the valley is roaring about 45 high. It is a flash flood. This is unique in that the highest mountains are covered. So what many may not realize is that this is unusual. As air rises it cools, then condenses, forms cloud and then you get rain or if it is cold enough you get snow. The highest mountain in NY is Mt. Marcy, about 5,000 feet high, the name means "cloud splitter" because you will generally see clouds at the top of the mountain. However, Everest is around 25,000 feet high. Much, much higher. For it to rain over the top of the highest mountains on Earth whether in the Himalayas or Rockies would be quite unusual. However, if the rain is falling from the stratosphere then it would be over the top of the highest mountains, even Everest. So this flood is describing an event where it rained down, over the top of the highest mountains, for 40 days and nights, creating Biblical floods that we can easily see evidence of today. In addition they tell us that this killed all kinds of animals, again we have evidence of that as well. When this flood hit the valley it was about 45 feet high, and then swept across the continent.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Are you familiar with a flash flood? Genesis says two things, both distinct. One, the flood came over the top of the mountain, and two the flood was 30 cubits deep. Imagine 40 days and nights of rain as a result of the water sent up into the stratosphere coming down on top of glaciated highlands. 100% of this water will come down the mountain as a flash flood, added to this a lot of snow and ice will melt as well. When it hits the valley it is 30-45 feet deep and travels across the continent. We can calculate how deep this flood was because ripple marks are proportional to the water depth. What we thought were odd hills turns out to be huge ripple marks from this flood. If you saw those disney movies about the ice age they depict a huge ice dam collapsing causing a flood. This is because we know there was a huge flood and the only explanation we had was that as the ice age ended the ice melted but was caught behind some kind of huge ice dam. But there is no mechanism that we have witnessed in modern days that as glaciers melt they dam up huge lakes. We can even see Greenland which is in many ways similar to the last ice age, the lakes form and drain periodically. There is no huge ice dam with a giant lake forming. So the movie ice age was based on the geology that we know there were these huge floods, especially from the Himalayas and Rockies.

We also know that a huge number of species went extinct at this same time. No one has a plausible explanation. One theory says man hunted hundreds of different species to extinction on all six continents at the end of the last ice age yet we don't see any evidence of this in bones or skins in the archaeological record. Another theory is that man brought diseases which caused over 200 different species to go extinct on 6 different continents. Again, really not plausible. Deadly diseases strike when you are in large herds and the animals can infect one another. Some of these animals like saber tooth tiger do not travel in large herds. Second, what disease would cause many different species to go extinct? It is a theory without any evidence other than the fact the species went extinct. But the flood described by Noah would account for them going extinct, it would also explain why 16 out of the 18 domesticated animals on earth are from mesopotamia (two exceptions are Llamas and guinea pigs).

Except we find no evidence of a global flood with water-levels that go higher than any mountain. The evidence for that would be clear as day and also quite catastrophic in scope and scale.

 

[Job 33:6]

If anyone would like to read about these asteroid strikes at the end of the last ice age

Massive crater under Greenland’s ice points to climate-altering impact in the time of humans

Scientists Debate Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami

I enjoy reading about new things, but it should be noted that the crater (if it exists) would be around 5-6 thousand years old, whereas the last ice age ended somewhere closer to 10-11 thousand years ago. So Im not sure if correlate the asteroid with the end of the ice age or even megafauna extinctions. If it did occur, these events would have already passed

 

[ZNP]

The tsunami that hit Madagascar was around 8,000 years ago -- Monster Tsunami May Have Created Madagascar's Giant Sand Dunes | Live Science

Which is about the same time they estimate the Black Sea flooded

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia

And the same time of this flood in North America

Bursting Ice Dam Flooded the Ancient Ocean | Live Science

and discussed here as well

The flood that led to the story of Noah's Ark may have spurred the spread of agriculture

 

[Subduction Zone]

The studies I have read discuss the flood that came down out of the mountains. They dated these floods to the end of the last ice age. So, they hypothesized ice dams. The idea being that the glaciers melted in such a way as to create large dams with huge lakes behind them. However, as I just said in a previous post "the present is the key to the past". We don't see that in Greenland, instead we see these lakes periodically draining, and then flowing out the bottom of the glacier. There is very good evidence for the flood, but not for the "ice dam" as the process by which a retreating glacier causes a flood.

Too much of Greenland is still covered by ice to reproduce this sort of event. Wait a hundred years or two and we may see this.

Once again "The present is the key to the past" only means that the physical laws are the same. We do not have to reproduce everything.

 

[Job 33:6]

The tsunami that hit Madagascar was around 8,000 years ago -- Monster Tsunami May Have Created Madagascar's Giant Sand Dunes | Live Science

Which is about the same time they estimate the Black Sea flooded

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia

And the same time of this flood in North America

Bursting Ice Dam Flooded the Ancient Ocean | Live Science

and discussed here as well

The flood that led to the story of Noah's Ark may have spurred the spread of agriculture

Even 8,000 years is thousands of years younger than the end of the ice age.

Your proposals (though possibly true) dont seem to have supporting research.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...2009+crater&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=8NAov4LenyUJ

 

[Subduction Zone]

The tsunami that hit Madagascar was around 8,000 years ago -- Monster Tsunami May Have Created Madagascar's Giant Sand Dunes | Live Science

Which is about the same time they estimate the Black Sea flooded

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia

And the same time of this flood in North America

Bursting Ice Dam Flooded the Ancient Ocean | Live Science

and discussed here as well

The flood that led to the story of Noah's Ark may have spurred the spread of agriculture

If you take the numbers for the fast delude hypothesis of the Black Sea it fails to qualify as a Noah's Ark flood even locally. A large amount of water entered the Black Sea every day, but since it was already a sizable body of water it could take it in without catastrophic consequences except for houses which could not walk away. It took about a year to fill with that model.

And if you read all of that Wiki article even that version is falling out of favor.

"A 2015 study reviewed the evidence accumulated and acknowledged a "fast transgression" lasting between 10 and 200 years.[25].".

That is still fast enough to flood buildings, but that is about it.

 

[ZNP]

Even 8,000 years is thousands of years younger than the end of the ice age.

Your proposals (though possibly true) dont seem to have supporting research.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,39&as_vis=1&q=Abbott+et+al.,+2009+crater&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=8NAov4LenyUJ

There is nothing in the Noah story to suggest it was at the same time as the last ice age, however, in my opinion Noah would have had to have been located in a place that either was the Black Sea or very much like it. The tsunami in Madagascar would have been 205 m above sea level, if that hit an area where Noah's boat was it would have flipped over and over. Likewise, with a flash flood at the base of one of these mountain ranges. But something like the Black sea filling up like a bathtub would work. The fact that we see these three events occurring at the same time in Madagascar, Black Sea, and North America is evidence of one giant world wide event. Again, what was described.

 

[ZNP]

Even 8,000 years is thousands of years younger than the end of the ice age.

Your proposals (though possibly true) dont seem to have supporting research.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,39&as_vis=1&q=Abbott+et+al.,+2009+crater&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=8NAov4LenyUJ

Most herding animals, such as the Columbian mammoth, horse, camel, and bison, as well as the dire wolf, rapidly became extinct about 8000 years ago.


Late Pleistocene Extinction and Radiocarbon Dating * | American Antiquity | Cambridge Core

 

[Subduction Zone]

The current most likely candidate for inspiring the tale was a flood of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. I will link an article that I have bookmarked when I get home.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Most herding animals, such as the Columbian mammoth, horse, camel, and bison, as well as the dire wolf, rapidly became extinct about 8000 years ago.


Late Pleistocene Extinction and Radiocarbon Dating * | American Antiquity | Cambridge Core

Most herding animals, such as the Columbian mammoth, horse, camel, and bison, as well as the dire wolf, rapidly became extinct about 8000 years ago.


Late Pleistocene Extinction and Radiocarbon Dating * | American Antiquity | Cambridge Core

It would be nice if they specified what "rapidly" means. Even a time period of hundreds of years could be meant. It also says that some areas had extinctions sooner than others. It appears that article does not support you either.