The decline of morality in America.

[VCR-2000]

Well as you often say, look at the translation. Often that application is " love less" in the original. God does hate sin though.

If that is true, I am interested in how the word "hate" could have jumped to "love less" to impassioned rage or ill feeling for another.

 

[Dave G.]

If that is true, I am interested in how the word "hate" could have jumped to "love less" to impassioned rage or ill feeling for another.

It has to do with context and translating to English from the original language. I posted it already a ways back in this thread, maybe you haven't run into it yet.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you have an example of a non-condemnatory judgment? Also do you have an example of righteous judgment?

Judging the sin in America is common. Some or many people condemn America for its sins (which yes, are many)

Righteous judgment will save some, instead of condemn all. Proper judgment of sin results in not being judged later.

An excerpt from "The Spirit of Judgment" published by Christian Fellowship Publishers:

"Though judgment is destructive, it also possesses the greatest constructive power.

Since God is willing to answer Satan’s challenge with judgment, we are forced to conclude that it must be a very good answer.

Whether we understand or not, judgment answers the challenge completely (for whatever God does is always perfect).

Our mistake is, that every time we think of judgment we think of punishment;

but God takes no delight in punishing men.

Judgment has its other use besides punishment: “Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world” (John 9.39).

In the Old Testament period you will notice several times that God used judgment to answer the problem of sin.

For example, in the day of Genesis 3 there was a garden.

God created man and placed him in Eden in order to have fellowship with him.

But sin came into the picture. The serpent spoke but once and man immediately fell into sin.

Yet as sin came in, God answered with judgment by driving man out of Eden so that he might not sin in the garden the second time.

The garden was thereafter guarded.

So judgment was God’s
counterattack. It served as the answer to the entry of sin.

14 The Spirit of Judgment

Later, during the time of Noah, men became ever more wicked.

So God prepared the ark on the one hand and judgment on the other.

Both the ark and the flood came from God.

The ark offered redemption whereas the flood judged the world.

The ark saved Noah, but the flood saved the world.

If salvation had been restricted to the persons in the ark alone, it would not have been great enough.

The world as well as men must be saved.

Redemption came upon both men and the world.

And God saved both. In like manner today, He will establish the kingdom as well as the church.

He works to have the church first and then He shall have the kingdoms of this world to become His kingdom.

There will indeed be judgment, but judgment will come to purify the world from its evil."

 

[Robert65]

Judging the sin in America is common. Some or many people condemn America for its sins (which yes, are many)

Righteous judgment will save some, instead of condemn all. Proper judgment of sin results in not being judged later.

An excerpt from "The Spirit of Judgment" published by Christian Fellowship Publishers:

"Though judgment is destructive, it also possesses the greatest constructive power.

Since God is willing to answer Satan’s challenge with judgment, we are forced to conclude that it must be a very good answer.

Whether we understand or not, judgment answers the challenge completely (for whatever God does is always perfect).

Our mistake is, that every time we think of judgment we think of punishment;

but God takes no delight in punishing men.

Judgment has its other use besides punishment: “Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world” (John 9.39).

In the Old Testament period you will notice several times that God used judgment to answer the problem of sin.

For example, in the day of Genesis 3 there was a garden.

God created man and placed him in Eden in order to have fellowship with him.

But sin came into the picture. The serpent spoke but once and man immediately fell into sin.

Yet as sin came in, God answered with judgment by driving man out of Eden so that he might not sin in the garden the second time.

The garden was thereafter guarded.

So judgment was God’s
counterattack. It served as the answer to the entry of sin.

14 The Spirit of Judgment

Later, during the time of Noah, men became ever more wicked.

So God prepared the ark on the one hand and judgment on the other.

Both the ark and the flood came from God.

The ark offered redemption whereas the flood judged the world.

The ark saved Noah, but the flood saved the world.

If salvation had been restricted to the persons in the ark alone, it would not have been great enough.

The world as well as men must be saved.

Redemption came upon both men and the world.

And God saved both. In like manner today, He will establish the kingdom as well as the church.

He works to have the church first and then He shall have the kingdoms of this world to become His kingdom.

There will indeed be judgment, but judgment will come to purify the world from its evil."

I do not see judgment as being synonymous with punishment. Peer-pressure is a form of judgment which if not heeded may lead to a social punishment such as ostracization.

As for examples of righteous judgment I am looking for real world examples. For example how would one righteously Judge President Trump for his lies, name calling, or infidelity, etc.?

I also argue that when we do not call out bad behavior that those who behave badly have no incentive to stop.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As for examples of righteous judgment I am looking for real world examples. For example how would one righteously Judge President Trump for his lies, name calling, or infidelity, etc.?

Have you watched or seen offhand the shenanigans of the politicians and the press for about a century ?

Is there any honesty ?

Never-the-less, who is there to judge properly ? None of the parties can or do. None of the lawyers seem to want to be honest either. Likewise no one in any of the parties ....
And who or why to judge any President or Congressman, without RIGHTEOUS Judgment ? i.e. prejudicial or biased judgment is not righteous, nor would it seem nor does it seem to be good for anyone , nor right to do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Peer-pressure is a form of judgment which if not heeded may lead to a social punishment such as ostracization.

THis is a form of unrighteous judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As for examples of righteous judgment I am looking for real world examples.

It is difficult to find anywhere.
Yahuweh in His Word says that the Ekklesia are to judge those IN THE EKKLESIA.
Those outside of the Ekklesia , HE Judges.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I also argue that when we do not call out bad behavior that those who behave badly have no incentive to stop.

The Bible agrees with this, in a way:

For lack of justice, people's love grows cold.

Matthew 24:12 Because of the multiplication of wickedness ...

https://biblehub.com › matthew
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ... "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. .... Of this lack of energetic love the Lord speaks in his warnings to the Church of Laodicea ...

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Matthew 24:12 Commentaries: "Because lawlessness is ...

https://biblehub.com › commentaries › matthew
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ... It is against the mind of Christ, that his people should have troubled hearts, even in ... It becomes Christ's disciples, in times of public trouble, to be much in prayer: that is .... a prevailing want of charity, that specific contrast to the true characteristic of the ...
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Matthew 24:12 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com › verse
Because lawlessness is increased, the love of most people will grow cold.

... and many people's love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah.

 

[Beanieboy]

[QUOTE="Robert65, post: 74533114, member: 413904"
4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too. Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others. In the absence of judgment,permissible. Let’s be realistic here, all Christians judge others just as all humans do. Judgment is not always the wrong thing to do or bad. Sometimes it is the right thing to do

I have a lot of problems with Christianity, yet I do recognize the value of a common system of moral and ethical?[/QUOTE]

Say this to a nonbeliever: “The problem Christians have is that we don’t judge enough” and watch the response.

If we are not to judge others for something we do ourselves, Christ would have said to remove the speck from our own eyes before trying to remove it from another, but he says to remove the log/plank from your own.

Not the same. Christ is saying, “examine your own life first. That should be where most of your focus is, the only thing you can control and change. As with the Pharisees who knew how much herbs to tithe, they disregarded important matters, like justice, love, forgiveness, mercy.

The reason nonbelievers see most Christians as judgemental is because of the harsh condemnation of others, while forgiving themselves. The don’t do it to edify but to accuse and condemn to exhault themselves.

So my real problem is that Christian read “Judge not lest you be judged” then because you are called to remove the 2x4 so that you may remove the piece of sawdust from your brother, and the take awau?
“Jesus commands us to take the speck out of others eyes, so judge away.”
Completely misses the point.

As an example, a scribe, Simon, invited Jesus to dinner. As they spoke, a woman came to Jesus. She had a bad reputation, but cleaned his feet and annointed his head. Simon looked at Christ, thiinking if this were the Messi
a,he would knoW what kind of woman she was, and not even acknowledge her, and the Scribes and Pharisees did. Jesus, sensibg this, says, “Who loves his madter more, one forgiven a small debt or a large debt?” Simon says, I suppose the one forgiven a large debt.

This is important. Jesus says, “you have judged rightly

You invited me to your house and did not offer to wash my feet, or annoint my head. She has washed my feet with her tears, dried them wirh her hair, and annointed my head with expensive oils.”

Simon judged himself as loving his master less than the woman ge condemned. He had even condemned Christ.

When told this story, it is often portrayed thst she is crying tears of remorse, beggibg for forgiveness, but the HS has shown me that Christ showed her she was worthy of receiving his love. She was crying tears of joy. It was the first time anyone within the temple had shown her real love, rather than judgement and condemnation.

And that is what changed her.

 

[stevevw]

The decline of morality in America.

I was raised to believe a very strict interpretation of Christianity. My father’s side of the family lived in a very liberal San Francisco Bay Area yet we’re fiercely conservative. Many of the moralistic principles I was taught back in the 1970’s I still value to this day. The problem is that Christian conservatism no longer holds itself to those same strict principles today and have placed loyalty to conservative political values over loyalty to the teachings of Christ. The moral torch bearers have dropped the torch and I fear what the future holds for an America without the moral and ethical anchor previously provided by Christian conservatism.

I believe that the decline in Christian membership is bad for America in the absence of an alternative moral foundation embraced by the masses. A human untethered to moral and ethical standards is a lowly creature, as exemplified by the amoral man (Trump) who is now held in high regard by many if not most Christian conservatives. When we abandon moral and ethical principles, dysfunction and chaos is the predictable outcome.

This has been slowly happening for some time. Moral relativity has crept in and is eroding any strict and clear morality that Christians use to support. Worldviews and Christian views are being blended in a humanistic morality that is neither here nor there. It is broad and open to manipulation. It promotes wrongdoing and claims it is good and pulls down what is good claiming it is bad.

Reasons that Christianity is on the decline in America.

1) Christianity has set the bar for moral action unreasonably high... so high that few if any can clear it. When espoused principles are unattainable this naturally leads to talking the talk but having no hope of being able to walk the talk. This leads to Christians being viewed as hypocrites that demand others live by standards that few if any Christians can live by.

It has also crept into secular society where people are moral signaling. But this is something that was predicted by the bible. That Christians would be false prophets and many Christians will not be practicing what they preach. Sunday Christians to afraid to offend sinners and trying to be all things to all people. Others living two lives with one foot on each side of the fence. Living for the world while appeasing their conscience by giving homage to God.

2) Christianity is not immune to tribalism. The tribe protects its own, which is why there is an ongoing pedophile priest problem in some sectors of the religion. When scandal is covered up to protect the image of the church, then this is to abandon the principles espoused by the church, which is again hypocritical. Christianity also has an us vs them attitude towards nonbelievers like me. Not saying all Christians are this way, but way too many are. An antagonistic view of nonbelievers simply ensures they remain nonbelievers.

I agree we tend to gather in like groups which is a normal human trait. Fellowship is important for Christians. But making belief a religion, an institution puts human wants before God and we can be corrupted by power. Groupthink causes people to become exclusive and reject outside thinking and begin to justify what is wrong for good. That’s why I think its important to have Christ at the center where his light shines in the darkness.

3) Judgment. Christians are taught to not judge others. This ensures that those who behave badly have no incentive to change their behavior. The Bible says that we can judge so long as we first remove the plank from our own eye, but Christians tend to focus upon “Judge not lest thee be judged”. Peer pressure is a valuable tool in keeping those who step out of line in check. If rank and file Christian conservatives took to Trump’s twitter feed and lambasted him for his amoral behavior, I argue that we would see a swift change in Trump’s demeanor. Trump knows the source of his power is his base and that if he loses his base he loses his power. Trump values his power and would turn on a dime if it were threatened.

The bible also tells us to help bring sinners to God which sometimes means telling them the truth about what they are doing. If someone was doing something that was not good for them as a friend, we would tell them. But Paul tells us to do this gently so that we can also show others that they are cared for and have support when needed.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
Luke 17:3
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
I think this verse is so relevant for today. We need to look at ourselves and work on being better people following Christs example and then we will be better at helping others.
Matthew 7:1-5 You hypocrite first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Ways to save a religion in decline.

1) Lower the bar in terms of moral expectations. Be realistic about the fallibility of humans and seek more effective ways to mitigate the more negative aspects of our baser nature.

We are all sinners and that needs to be recognized. Even those in high places are sinners. It is only by acknowledging our weak sinful nature are we able to overcome it by being humble and realizing we need Gods help.

2) Be realistic about what is harmful. Quit judging harmless things such as long hair on men as bad, harmful or immoral. When religion judges harmless things as harmful it immediately create an out group to be demonized for no good reason. This repels many people from a religion that otherwise may have embraced it.

3) Christianity needs to quit being tribalistic as tribalism trumps the teachings of Christ. For the church to grow it needs to be open as opposed to insular. If the teachings of Christ cannot stand against tribalistic human nature within the church then there is no value in being Christian. If the god of Christianity is impotent in the face of human nature then there is no use to joining the church. Christianity should be a tool to mitigate or even overcome the more negative aspects of our nature. When religion is tribal it becomes us vs them instead of us looking for ways to help them.

We should be open and welcome newcomers and diversity. But we also need to know that there will be a time when uniting is important as well as just as Christ was ridiculed and persecuted his church will also be. As we are seeing today Christians and Christianity is being ridiculed not because people are trying to be exclusive but for representing the truth of God. So, we need to support each other in that sense as there will not be many who will.

4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too. Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others. In the absence of judgment, all things are permissible. Let’s be realistic here, all Christians judge others just as all humans do. Judgment is not always the wrong thing to do or bad. Sometimes it is the right thing to do and beneficial.

I think it is when some may come across pious and are unrealistic that people get turned off with. Not acknowledging our humanity and expecting unreal standards. This is where we need humility and empathy.

5) Christians need to quit blaming nonbelievers for the decline of the religion. Christians setting impossibly high standards that most if not all Christians fail to clear is a major reason for the decline of the religion. Blaming the minority (nonbelievers) for the failure of the majority (Christians) is illogical by my measure of logic. Quit shooting yourself in the foot and blaming others for the pain.

Some used the church as a form of power to control others. But by putting Christ at the center he says that we are all the same no matter who we are. We should respect others and even put others ahead of ourselves as Christ did. This is needed in a world that is placing so much importance of self above others.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity, yet I do recognize the value of a common system of moral and ethical values. Unless another moral authority is developed to guide human behavior, then religion may be the best bad option we have. In the absence of a generally accepted code of conduct, chaos will thrive.

Thoughts?

It is not just about keeping a set of morals to be good. I think everyone no matter what moral views we have intuitively know of certain rights and wrongs. The bible says we all know Gods laws as they are written on our hearts. This is our conscience. But we are all sinners and need to recognize that we cannot beat sin on our own. As Paul says we are slaves to sin. We will never be able to uphold any set or morals and will always fall short. By nature, we don’t want to do good and seek God.

So, it is only by acknowledging this that we will come to God. By accepting Christ, it is He living in us and not ourselves that can overcome sin and live a moral life.
Romans 7:15-20
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 8: 5-8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 6:6
We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin.

 

[JackRT]

It promotes wrongdoing and claims it is good and pulls down what is good claiming it is bad.

Are "what is good" being pulled down things like:
--- patriarchy and misogyny?
--- witch and heretic burning?
--- slavery?
--- religious wars?
--- abuse of minorities and indigenous people?
--- persecution of homosexuals?
All of these "goods" have been strongly defended by Christians in the past and some of it continues to the present.

 

[stevevw]

Are "what is good" being pulled down things like:
--- patriarchy and misogyny?
--- witch and heretic burning?
--- slavery?
--- religious wars?
--- abuse of minorities and indigenous people?
--- persecution of homosexuals?
All of these "goods" have been strongly defended by Christians in the past and some of it continues to the present.

Yes the greatest deception of making something bad look good is through religion. But in some ways there is still a clear right and wrong in all that. Even if religion justified an act as being OK it is clear what that is. So over time this can be expose as well.

But I am talking about a moral relativity that seems to blur lines and makes it hard to expose what is wrong. Relativity allows all sorts of views and behaviors to be included and its harder to not only pin down what's wrong but we can even knowingly be aware that it is wrong but have little power to stop it.

For example many know climate change is wrong in one way or another but those in power can rationalize its not a problem according to their view. Some may quip it is a problem but what can we do about it. So there are many relative positions that stops anyone really having a clear basis to act or accuse others and change things. The first step to solving an issue is admitting and agreeing the problem. Because there is no agreement and things become compromised and never really changed.

inappropriate content is another example. People in high places think inappropriate content is OK and even good in liberating people sexually. Others think it is unhealthy and morally wrong. Because we allow all views morality becomes relative and harder to make a case against what is wrong. Whereas I believe we once had a clearer moral stand on this which I think stemmed from common Christian values. When we make things relative it always ends up allowing the bad with the good and the bad always seems to win.

 

[Sy89ian]

While morality is something subjective, I would definitely say that the reason many fail to uphold ethics is peer pressure and lifestyle, which also includes alcoholism. An example is

This video draws on insights from Biblical literature in exploring the devastating impact of alcohol use on families

 

[ananda]

I believe that the decline in Christian membership is bad for America in the absence of an alternative moral foundation embraced by the masses ... I do recognize the value of a common system of moral and ethical values. Unless another moral authority is developed to guide human behavior, then religion may be the best bad option we have. In the absence of a generally accepted code of conduct, chaos will thrive.

Thoughts?

There is no absence of a moral/ethical foundation embraced by the masses. In fact, there is actually a politically enforced system of ethics in America. It's called greed.

Laws are enacted to maximize profitability. "Innovators" and "entrepreneurs" are encouraged to seek out ever-new ways of increasing greed among consumers in order to maximize profits - even to the extent of hiring psychologists to maximize addictive potentials of products.

Additionally, the money in our pockets and bank accounts are diluted in value by government endlessly "printing" money behind our backs - an insidious way of encouraging greed.

This political system is more pervasive than religious systems, for most. Many might go to their churches, temples, etc. on a weekly basis, but we go to work on an almost daily basis, know those who do, go to school which essentially teaches this system of ethics (after all, the end-purpose of schooling is to "get a good job"), and see the value of our money decline.

Why should we be surprised that this process which is designed to endlessly push the boundaries of greed would necessarily result a decline in self-control and wisdom?

 

[FireDragon76]

There is no absence of a moral/ethical foundation embraced by the masses. In fact, there is actually a politically enforced system of ethics in America. It's called greed.

Laws are enacted to maximize profitability. "Innovators" and "entrepreneurs" are encouraged to seek out ever-new ways of increasing greed among consumers in order to maximize profits - even to the extent of hiring psychologists to maximize addictive potentials of products.

Additionally, the money in our pockets and bank accounts are diluted in value by government endlessly "printing" money behind our backs - an insidious way of encouraging greed.

This political system is more pervasive than religious systems, for most. Many might go to their churches, temples, etc. on a weekly basis, but we go to work on an almost daily basis, know those who do, go to school which essentially teaches this system of ethics (after all, the end-purpose of schooling is to "get a good job"), and see the value of our money decline.

Why should we be surprised that this process which is designed to endlessly push the boundaries of greed would necessarily result a decline in self-control and wisdom?

Our system seems dependent on robust religious or spiritual institutions that inculcates virtue to inform our civic life. Unfortunately, we don't have much of that anymore in this country anymore, if we ever did at all.

 

[VCR-2000]

There is no absence of a moral/ethical foundation embraced by the masses. In fact, there is actually a politically enforced system of ethics in America. It's called greed.

Laws are enacted to maximize profitability. "Innovators" and "entrepreneurs" are encouraged to seek out ever-new ways of increasing greed among consumers in order to maximize profits - even to the extent of hiring psychologists to maximize addictive potentials of products.

Additionally, the money in our pockets and bank accounts are diluted in value by government endlessly "printing" money behind our backs - an insidious way of encouraging greed.

This political system is more pervasive than religious systems, for most. Many might go to their churches, temples, etc. on a weekly basis, but we go to work on an almost daily basis, know those who do, go to school which essentially teaches this system of ethics (after all, the end-purpose of schooling is to "get a good job"), and see the value of our money decline.

Why should we be surprised that this process which is designed to endlessly push the boundaries of greed would necessarily result a decline in self-control and wisdom?

I think that in a lot of ways the media is the "moral" or ethical religion or belief of modern America. I say it because the media is used to influence the masses and are controlled by a few high people that share very similar worldviews and opinions, different than you and me.

 

[ananda]

I think that in a lot of ways the media is the "moral" or ethical religion or belief of modern America. I say it because the media is used to influence the masses and are controlled by a few high people that share very similar worldviews and opinions, different than you and me.

I see them as the priesthood for the ethical system I described. They seem to work to keep the masses agitated and discontent, because discontentment means change, and change equals profit.

A people who are at peace and content are not profitable.

 

[Ricky M]

Libtard --- a word coined by Republicans to describe a person who has empathy and who knows history, economics, science, grammar and spelling.

Caution, I got my hand slapped for using that term

 

[Ricky M]

I also argue that when we do not call out bad behavior that those who behave badly have no incentive to stop.

It actually encourages them.

 

[Ricky M]

A people who are at peace and content are not profitable.

Because money doesn't buy happiness