The decline of morality in America.

[Robert65]

The decline of morality in America.

I was raised to believe a very strict interpretation of Christianity. My father’s side of the family lived in a very liberal San Francisco Bay Area yet we’re fiercely conservative. Many of the moralistic principles I was taught back in the 1970’s I still value to this day. The problem is that Christian conservatism no longer holds itself to those same strict principles today and have placed loyalty to conservative political values over loyalty to the teachings of Christ. The moral torch bearers have dropped the torch and I fear what the future holds for an America without the moral and ethical anchor previously provided by Christian conservatism.

I believe that the decline in Christian membership is bad for America in the absence of an alternative moral foundation embraced by the masses. A human untethered to moral and ethical standards is a lowly creature, as exemplified by the amoral man (Trump) who is now held in high regard by many if not most Christian conservatives. When we abandon moral and ethical principles, dysfunction and chaos is the predictable outcome.

Reasons that Christianity is on the decline in America.

1) Christianity has set the bar for moral action unreasonably high... so high that few if any can clear it. When espoused principles are unattainable this naturally leads to talking the talk but having no hope of being able to walk the talk. This leads to Christians being viewed as hypocrites that demand others live by standards that few if any Christians can live by.

2) Christianity is not immune to tribalism. The tribe protects its own, which is why there is an ongoing pedophile priest problem in some sectors of the religion. When scandal is covered up to protect the image of the church, then this is to abandon the principles espoused by the church, which is again hypocritical. Christianity also has an us vs them attitude towards nonbelievers like me. Not saying all Christians are this way, but way too many are. An antagonistic view of nonbelievers simply ensures they remain nonbelievers.

3) Judgment. Christians are taught to not judge others. This ensures that those who behave badly have no incentive to change their behavior. The Bible says that we can judge so long as we first remove the plank from our own eye, but Christians tend to focus upon “Judge not lest thee be judged”. Peer pressure is a valuable tool in keeping those who step out of line in check. If rank and file Christian conservatives took to Trump’s twitter feed and lambasted him for his amoral behavior, I argue that we would see a swift change in Trump’s demeanor. Trump knows the source of his power is his base and that if he loses his base he loses his power. Trump values his power and would turn on a dime if it were threatened.

Ways to save a religion in decline.

1) Lower the bar in terms of moral expectations. Be realistic about the fallibility of humans and seek more effective ways to mitigate the more negative aspects of our baser nature.

2) Be realistic about what is harmful. Quit judging harmless things such as long hair on men as bad, harmful or immoral. When religion judges harmless things as harmful it immediately create an out group to be demonized for no good reason. This repels many people from a religion that otherwise may have embraced it.

3) Christianity needs to quit being tribalistic as tribalism trumps the teachings of Christ. For the church to grow it needs to be open as opposed to insular. If the teachings of Christ cannot stand against tribalistic human nature within the church then there is no value in being Christian. If the god of Christianity is impotent in the face of human nature then there is no use to joining the church. Christianity should be a tool to mitigate or even overcome the more negative aspects of our nature. When religion is tribal it becomes us vs them instead of us looking for ways to help them.

4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too. Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others. In the absence of judgment, all things are permissible. Let’s be realistic here, all Christians judge others just as all humans do. Judgment is not always the wrong thing to do or bad. Sometimes it is the right thing to do and beneficial.

5) Christians need to quit blaming nonbelievers for the decline of the religion. Christians setting impossibly high standards that most if not all Christians fail to clear is a major reason for the decline of the religion. Blaming the minority (nonbelievers) for the failure of the majority (Christians) is illogical by my measure of logic. Quit shooting yourself in the foot and blaming others for the pain.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity, yet I do recognize the value of a common system of moral and ethical values. Unless another moral authority is developed to guide human behavior, then religion may be the best bad option we have. In the absence of a generally accepted code of conduct, chaos will thrive.

Thoughts?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

3) Judgment. Christians are taught to not judge others. This ensures that those who behave badly have no incentive to change their behavior.

Judgement is required as directed in Scripture, in God's Plan, and in God's Purpose, and in and for Salvation. Yes.

Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others.

It can be, but it is not what God uses, per se. Although the reverse is often true and is stated in Scripture directly: Bad Company Corrupts GOOD Morals.

Blaming the minority (nonbelievers) for the failure of the majority (Christians) is illogical by my measure of logic.

Oh, it is logical, for men. Not accepted by God though, nor by proper Ekklesia. Also note: the minority , by far, is Christians. The people on the wide path to destruction far outnumber us.

The problem is that Christian conservatism no longer holds itself to those same strict principles today and have placed loyalty to conservative political values over loyalty to the teachings of Christ. The moral torch bearers have dropped the torch and I fear what the future holds for an America without the moral and ethical anchor previously provided by Christian conservatism.

That is a big problem, yes. Whether Christian conservatism ever provided a "moral and ethical anchor" for the country/ population though is still in question.

I believe that the decline in Christian membership is bad for America in the absence of an alternative moral foundation embraced by the masses. A human untethered to moral and ethical standards is a lowly creature, as exemplified by the amoral man (Trump) who is now held in high regard by many if not most Christian conservatives. When we abandon moral and ethical principles, dysfunction and chaos is the predictable outcome.

Yes , when the unrighteous are in power, the righteous go into hiding. (somewhat)
But no, the example you use is a frequent one, but may not be accurate at all.

Reasons that Christianity is on the decline in America.

1) Christianity has set the bar for moral action unreasonably high..

No. The bar dropped too low, as wickedness was permitted more and more.
Not too high. Even the thoughts in the heart are to be brought all subject to Jesus - NOT ONLY the actions!

2) Christianity is not immune to tribalism. The tribe protects its own, which is why there is an ongoing pedophile priest problem in some sectors of the religion.

That happens when truth is not allowed, not permitted, and judgment is lacking, and Christ is missing.

Ways to save a religion in decline.

1) Lower the bar in terms of moral expectations.

No. That does not change. It is set by God , in harmony with all Scripture and with His Perfect Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus.

2) Be realistic about what is harmful.

3) Christianity needs to quit being tribalistic as tribalism trumps the teachings of Christ.

In Christ Jesus, Abiding in His Word, Trusting the Heavenly Father to accomplish all things concerning salvation, the True Ekklesia overcome this, as they do all other troubles/ sins/ etc

4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too.

Amen.

5) Christians need to quit blaming nonbelievers for the decline of the religion. Christians setting impossibly high standards that most if not all Christians fail to clear is a major reason for the decline of the religion.

The decline has been from within. Impossibly high standards ? No. The standards are set by God Himself, and are the same as in the first century, and will not change.

 

[Fantine]

Put more women in leadership positions in churches. Women have traditionally been the nurturers of society, and women are often the spiritual hearts of their homes.

Many churches place far too much value on patriarchy. Women have shown themselves to be capable in almost every career and academic venture, and are well able to share church leadership in more or less equal proportions to the men.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God says in His Word someplace, that one of the punishments He puts on His disobedient people is that a woman would rule over them.
Disobeying His Directions leads to more trouble, not less.

 

[JackRT]

God says in His Word someplace, that one of the punishments He puts on His disobedient people is that a woman would rule over them.

Why is this a punishment? It may in fact be a blessing.

 

[Dave G.]

The whole world is slipping, take a look around it's not just the U.S.. It's predicted to be so and so it will continue to be. Man alone in no way can fix it, it takes God and not any god but the true and Living God. Societies in general want anything but Him. There is one name unto heaven, one moral standard and people are rejecting it as predicted. Revival is only possible with God not against God and there are even today pockets of that around. But we need mass revival and that is not predicted to be anything long term in this time.

 

[Robert65]

Judgement is required as directed in Scripture, in God's Plan, and in God's Purpose, and in and for Salvation. Yes.

It can be, but it is not what God uses, per se. Although the reverse is often true and is stated in Scripture directly: Bad Company Corrupts GOOD Morals.
Oh, it is logical, for men. Not accepted by God though, nor by proper Ekklesia. Also note: the minority , by far, is Christians. The people on the wide path to destruction far outnumber us.

That is a big problem, yes. Whether Christian conservatism ever provided a "moral and ethical anchor" for the country/ population though is still in question.


Yes , when the unrighteous are in power, the righteous go into hiding. (somewhat)
But no, the example you use is a frequent one, but may not be accurate at all.


No. The bar dropped too low, as wickedness was permitted more and more.
Not too high. Even the thoughts in the heart are to be brought all subject to Jesus - NOT ONLY the actions!

That happens when truth is not allowed, not permitted, and judgment is lacking, and Christ is missing.


No. That does not change. It is set by God , in harmony with all Scripture and with His Perfect Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus.




In Christ Jesus, Abiding in His Word, Trusting the Heavenly Father to accomplish all things concerning salvation, the True Ekklesia overcome this, as they do all other troubles/ sins/ etc

Amen.


The decline has been from within. Impossibly high standards ? No. The standards are set by God Himself, and are the same as in the first century, and will not change.

You are the only Christian I have met that said that judgment is at least contextually OK. As for the rest of your post, I thank you for your perspective.

 

[Robert65]

Put more women in leadership positions in churches. Women have traditionally been the nurturers of society, and women are often the spiritual hearts of their homes.

Many churches place far too much value on patriarchy. Women have shown themselves to be capable in almost every career and academic venture, and are well able to share church leadership in more or less equal proportions to the men.

I certainly do not think that women would do any worse than men. I agree with your assessment.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Ways to save a religion in decline.

1) Lower the bar in terms of moral expectations. Be realistic about the fallibility of humans and seek more effective ways to mitigate the more negative aspects of our baser nature.

Mainline American Protestantism has been doing just that for a few decades now. And their numbers have not grown. On the contrary, their membership rosters have atrophied. The median age of many of their congregations is somewhere in the 60s, and climbing.

That is not the sign of growth. Now, I am a firm believer that ever-swelling membership rolls is not the sole indicator of success in ministry. In fact, I'd argue it's not necessarily even a primary criterion. But a lack of growth is one thing. Hemorrhaging members is quite another.

3) Christianity needs to quit being tribalistic as tribalism trumps the teachings of Christ. For the church to grow it needs to be open as opposed to insular. If the teachings of Christ cannot stand against tribalistic human nature within the church then there is no value in being Christian. If the god of Christianity is impotent in the face of human nature then there is no use to joining the church. Christianity should be a tool to mitigate or even overcome the more negative aspects of our nature. When religion is tribal it becomes us vs them instead of us looking for ways to help them.

Many words are used there to say very little. And yet, I detect a reductive attempt on your part to define the religion which singularly built western civilization as we knew it as little more than therapy or self-help.

Authentic Christian faith has always demanded transformation in the soul. While Protestants have quite a few disagreements with my Church, one thing we usually agree about is the need for this transformation of the soul.

Thus, while I assume you mean well with your more minimalistic preference, what you prescribe is contrary to what Christianity has been since its founding day.

4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too. Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others. In the absence of judgment, all things are permissible. Let’s be realistic here, all Christians judge others just as all humans do. Judgment is not always the wrong thing to do or bad. Sometimes it is the right thing to do and beneficial.

What precisely do you think Christians are guilty of which they "judge" others about? Drinking alcohol? Premarital intimacy? Abortion? What you have written here is as helpful as it is vague.

5) Christians need to quit blaming nonbelievers for the decline of the religion.

While I cannot dream to speak for all Christians everywhere, frankly, I put the great majority of the blame on the boomers. That generation took a beautiful and historic religion and turned it into a U2 concert. In that sense, non-believers are the least of our problems, I'd say.

Christians setting impossibly high standards that most if not all Christians fail to clear is a major reason for the decline of the religion.

I disagree. The "brands" of Christianity which have exhibited the most growth so far this century are the ones which typically expect something from their faithful.

The easy-going, all-inclusive, no-expectation communities have been the ones hit hardest by the exodus of the faithful.

Further, in your post I do not see you giving the more pious Christians their due. Right or wrong, they believe that someday their faith will cost them their lives. A shockingly high number of them expect persecution of Christians unto death to happen at some point during their lifetimes.

Disclaimer: I personally find that highly unlikely. Not impossible but highly doubtful about that.

But whether they're right or wrong isn't the point. The point is they believe that. And yet, that has not deterred them from exercising their faith without apology or remorse. That is the sign of a people committed to the core tenets of their religion.

These people give more, volunteer more and donate more than any other group. Religious conservatives are far over-represented in such charitable actions as food banks, toy drives, blood donations, free labor, etc. By whatever metric, be it time, money, blood or sweat, religious conservatives simply give back more to society through alms and charity than any other group.

While the fundamentalists vex even me on occasion, I believe we should give them their due for voluntarily doing far more to benefit society than pretty much anybody else.

 

[JackRT]

I am not so sure that the whole world is slipping, let alone Canada and the USA. We have rejected slavery and have emancipated women. We are winning the war against racism and patriarchy and misogyny. We are beginning to recognize the civil rights of homosexuals and transgenders and even atheists. The really strange thing is that this had to be accomplished over the determined resistance of a great many Christians. There might even come a day when liberals are recognized as citizens.

 

[Robert65]

Mainline American Protestantism has been doing just that for a few decades now. And their numbers have not grown. On the contrary, their membership rosters have atrophied. The median age of many of their congregations is somewhere in the 60s, and climbing.

That is not the sign of growth. Now, I am a firm believer that ever-swelling membership rolls is not the sole indicator of success in ministry. In fact, I'd argue it's not necessarily even a primary criterion. But a lack of growth is one thing. Hemorrhaging members is quite another.

Many words are used there to say very little. And yet, I detect a reductive attempt on your part to define the religion which singularly built western civilization as we knew it as little more than therapy or self-help.

Authentic Christian faith has always demanded transformation in the soul. While Protestants have quite a few disagreements with my Church, one thing we usually agree about is the need for this transformation of the soul.

Thus, while I assume you mean well with your more minimalistic preference, what you prescribe is contrary to what Christianity has been since its founding day.

What precisely do you think Christians are guilty of which they "judge" others about? Drinking alcohol? Premarital intimacy? Abortion? What you have written here is as helpful as it is vague.

While I cannot dream to speak for all Christians everywhere, frankly, I put the great majority of the blame on the boomers. That generation took a beautiful and historic religion and turned it into a U2 concert. In that sense, non-believers are the least of our problems, I'd say.

I disagree. The "brands" of Christianity which have exhibited the most growth so far this century are the ones which typically expect something from their faithful.

The easy-going, all-inclusive, no-expectation communities have been the ones hit hardest by the exodus of the faithful.

Further, in your post I do not see you giving the more pious Christians their due. Right or wrong, they believe that someday their faith will cost them their lives. A shockingly high number of them expect persecution of Christians unto death to happen at some point during their lifetimes.

Disclaimer: I personally find that highly unlikely. Not impossible but highly doubtful about that.

But whether they're right or wrong isn't the point. The point is they believe that. And yet, that has not deterred them from exercising their faith without apology or remorse. That is the sign of a people committed to the core tenets of their religion.

These people give more, volunteer more and donate more than any other group. Religious conservatives are far over-represented in such charitable actions as food banks, toy drives, blood donations, free labor, etc. By whatever metric, be it time, money, blood or sweat, religious conservatives simply give back more to society through alms and charity than any other group.

While the fundamentalists vex even me on occasion, I believe we should give them their due for voluntarily doing far more to benefit society than pretty much anybody else.

I think Christians are guilty of hypocrisy and tend to defend their hypocrisy with rebuttals such as “none of us are perfect or “only god can judge me”. Were you ever a nonbeliever? If so did you not see the “do as I say, not as I do”?

You may be right about the Boomers as it is they who taught me one thing then practiced another.

If by “pious” members you mean those who religiously walk the talk and are a benefit to humanity... I see them as my moral and ethical betters. I am 54 and have only met three in my life.

As for the positives of the Christianity, I do not deny it, but this thread is not about praising what Christians get right, it is about pointing out where Christians fall short.

 

[GACfan]

I am not so sure that the whole world is slipping, let alone Canada and the USA. We have rejected slavery and have emancipated women. We are winning the war against racism and patriarchy and misogyny. We are beginning to recognize the civil rights of homosexuals and transgenders and even atheists. The really strange thing is that this had to be accomplished over the determined resistance of a great many Christians. There might even come a day when liberals are recognized as citizens.

There might come a day when liberals (including liberal Christians) aren't accused of hating Jesus and they don't have their salvation questioned because they don't adhere to the conservative beliefs and scriptural interpretation of evangelical Christians. Maybe there will even come a day when Democrats are no longer called Demoncrats and they aren't accused of hating America and being anti-American.

 

[Kaon]

The decline of morality in America.

I was raised to believe a very strict interpretation of Christianity. My father’s side of the family lived in a very liberal San Francisco Bay Area yet we’re fiercely conservative. Many of the moralistic principles I was taught back in the 1970’s I still value to this day. The problem is that Christian conservatism no longer holds itself to those same strict principles today and have placed loyalty to conservative political values over loyalty to the teachings of Christ. The moral torch bearers have dropped the torch and I fear what the future holds for an America without the moral and ethical anchor previously provided by Christian conservatism.

I believe that the decline in Christian membership is bad for America in the absence of an alternative moral foundation embraced by the masses. A human untethered to moral and ethical standards is a lowly creature, as exemplified by the amoral man (Trump) who is now held in high regard by many if not most Christian conservatives. When we abandon moral and ethical principles, dysfunction and chaos is the predictable outcome.

Reasons that Christianity is on the decline in America.

1) Christianity has set the bar for moral action unreasonably high... so high that few if any can clear it. When espoused principles are unattainable this naturally leads to talking the talk but having no hope of being able to walk the talk. This leads to Christians being viewed as hypocrites that demand others live by standards that few if any Christians can live by.

2) Christianity is not immune to tribalism. The tribe protects its own, which is why there is an ongoing pedophile priest problem in some sectors of the religion. When scandal is covered up to protect the image of the church, then this is to abandon the principles espoused by the church, which is again hypocritical. Christianity also has an us vs them attitude towards nonbelievers like me. Not saying all Christians are this way, but way too many are. An antagonistic view of nonbelievers simply ensures they remain nonbelievers.

3) Judgment. Christians are taught to not judge others. This ensures that those who behave badly have no incentive to change their behavior. The Bible says that we can judge so long as we first remove the plank from our own eye, but Christians tend to focus upon “Judge not lest thee be judged”. Peer pressure is a valuable tool in keeping those who step out of line in check. If rank and file Christian conservatives took to Trump’s twitter feed and lambasted him for his amoral behavior, I argue that we would see a swift change in Trump’s demeanor. Trump knows the source of his power is his base and that if he loses his base he loses his power. Trump values his power and would turn on a dime if it were threatened.

Ways to save a religion in decline.

1) Lower the bar in terms of moral expectations. Be realistic about the fallibility of humans and seek more effective ways to mitigate the more negative aspects of our baser nature.

2) Be realistic about what is harmful. Quit judging harmless things such as long hair on men as bad, harmful or immoral. When religion judges harmless things as harmful it immediately create an out group to be demonized for no good reason. This repels many people from a religion that otherwise may have embraced it.

3) Christianity needs to quit being tribalistic as tribalism trumps the teachings of Christ. For the church to grow it needs to be open as opposed to insular. If the teachings of Christ cannot stand against tribalistic human nature within the church then there is no value in being Christian. If the god of Christianity is impotent in the face of human nature then there is no use to joining the church. Christianity should be a tool to mitigate or even overcome the more negative aspects of our nature. When religion is tribal it becomes us vs them instead of us looking for ways to help them.

4) Judge others when it is called for. The Bible does not say never judge, it simply says don’t be a hypocrite by judging others for doing that which you do too. Peer pressure can be an effective tool in influencing the behavior of others. In the absence of judgment, all things are permissible. Let’s be realistic here, all Christians judge others just as all humans do. Judgment is not always the wrong thing to do or bad. Sometimes it is the right thing to do and beneficial.

5) Christians need to quit blaming nonbelievers for the decline of the religion. Christians setting impossibly high standards that most if not all Christians fail to clear is a major reason for the decline of the religion. Blaming the minority (nonbelievers) for the failure of the majority (Christians) is illogical by my measure of logic. Quit shooting yourself in the foot and blaming others for the pain.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity, yet I do recognize the value of a common system of moral and ethical values. Unless another moral authority is developed to guide human behavior, then religion may be the best bad option we have. In the absence of a generally accepted code of conduct, chaos will thrive.

Thoughts?

AMERICA has a long history of exploiting other people to confront - based on twisted religion, and general despotic lusts - before it begins considering itself at a place where it can decline.

In other words, because of the ignorance of the past atrocities, and the constant compulsion to sweep it under the rug, America was NEVER in a lofty place as a nation in the first place - only in the prideful minds of the Columbians was America lofty. Something that is abysmal cannot decline any more.

What everyone is seeing is the consequences of an unloyal lot of people (elected and nurtured by us) who have exploited our prejudices for an easy policing of the world, and expansion of the States. Once Americans stop trying to ignore the festoring sore of history, they will see health. Otherwise, it has no choice but to get worse.

The answer is very simple.

 

[VCR-2000]

I think another scary thing is that you consider the "old guard" who kept whatever was left of it afloat are old and starting to die off already all almost at once.

My own generation, the millennials, are completely...hm, what would be a single word that is CF-friendly instead of the "F"-word anyone?

 

[GACfan]

In other words, because of the ignorance of the past atrocities, and the constant compulsion to sweep it under the rug, America was NEVER in a lofty place as a nation in the first place - only in the prideful minds of the Columbians was America lofty. Something that is abysmal cannot decline any more.

I don't think it's necessarily ignorance in most cases with a certain group of Americans. I think it's more of an attempt to dismiss the atrocities with petty excuses and trying to justify the atrocities.

 

[VCR-2000]

...
Also note: the minority , by far, is Christians. The people on the wide path to destruction far outnumber us.
...

Now that is one thing to make me start questioning or lamenting "so much for God's supposedly good plan then...Who would be happy with a rule like that?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Now that is one thing to make me start questioning or lamenting "so much for God's supposedly good plan then...Who would be happy with a rule like that?

The only option for the world that is doomed, is to be through Jesus Christ.

Would you rather the whole world that is doomed had no one saved at all, no opportunity to be restored to the Creator ?

Doesn't matter if anyone is happy with "a rule like that". There's no other way at all.

GRACIOUSLY .... there's no reason to love or to save anyone - but God chooses to do so anyway !

SO WHOEVER <<<--- WHOEVER! ANYBODY! ANYONE who believes in Him, trusting, has life.

Anyone who chooses not to trust, has not life.

Your choice, trust or not.

 

[VCR-2000]

The whole world is slipping, take a look around it's not just the U.S.. It's predicted to be so and so it will continue to be. Man alone in no way can fix it, it takes God and not any god but the true and Living God. Societies in general want anything but Him. There is one name unto heaven, one moral standard and people are rejecting it as predicted. Revival is only possible with God not against God and there are even today pockets of that around. But we need mass revival and that is not predicted to be anything long term in this time.

So God appears to be more similar to a that mob boss who says he will do something only if he tries to change the other people around him. He is not merciful or loving all the time. What is the point?

 

[Kaon]

I don't think it's necessarily ignorance in most cases with a certain group of Americans. I think it's more of an attempt to dismiss the atrocities with petty excuses and trying to justify the atrocities.

That is what I mean - not stupid at all, but "choosing to ignore" what is actually apparent, or uncoverable.

Many who do this know exactly what they are doing. Some are just psychological casualties.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I think Christians are guilty of hypocrisy and tend to defend their hypocrisy with rebuttals such as “none of us are perfect or “only god can judge me”. Were you ever a nonbeliever? If so did you not see the “do as I say, not as I do”?

I neither said nor implied that so this part of your response is not a valid reply to my post.

As for the positives of the Christianity, I do not deny it, but this thread is not about praising what Christians get right, it is about pointing out where Christians fall short.

I rounded out your critique by adding facts and viewpoints which nuance what is otherwise an anti-Christian screed, the point being that while you may or may not have a point about Christians with some of your objections, their perceived "hypocrisy" is very often overstated, if not invented out of whole cloth.