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The Deception of Evolution and the Fossil Sequence

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lifepsyop

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Really? Okay, let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the theory of evolution is completely wrong. How does this prove whatever form of creationism you appeal to? Walk me through the logic.

Try reading what you wrote. You said "God did it", not a particular "form of creationism". Yes, if Evolution is false, you know very well that "God did it". Why do you think so many atheists are practically foaming at the mouth whenever your evolutionary creation story is questioned?

But nobody says that. The current models of cosmology and biology are held because they are evidence-based.

It's charming that you believe that.

Like I said, whenever there is an unknown, the evolutionary creation story is always unquestionably believed to be the answer. There doesn't necessarily have to be any evidence for a particular model. Countless 'explanations' essentially boil down to "Natural Selection did it somehow."
 
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dad

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Really? Okay, let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the theory of evolution is completely wrong. How does this prove whatever form of creationism you appeal to? Walk me through the logic.



But nobody says that. The current models of cosmology and biology are held because they are evidence-based.

It is not by the failure of a lie that we know the truth, but by the entrance of Truth Himself into our beings.
 
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AV1611VET

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But your "Yahweh" comment did remind me of a Bible coder that drove me nuts. He thought that there was some special meaning to YHVH and it was hidden in the Bible, not YHWH which you can also pull out by using the same nonsense, he was stuck on YHVH. Which is rather hilarious since that is merely an attempt at a transliteration from Hebrew to Roman letters and since the pronunciation of words in most languages change what may have been a correct transliteration in the past might not be a correct one today.
I believe that, since God called Lucifer "Satan," Satan calls God "Yahweh."
 
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The Cadet

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Try reading what you wrote. You said "God did it", not a particular "form of creationism". Yes, if Evolution is false, you know very well that "God did it". Why do you think so many atheists are practically foaming at the mouth whenever your evolutionary creation story is questioned?

Because the injection of pseudoscience into the already-struggling American education system is a damn shame? Because knowledge taken from evolutionary models saves lives on a daily basis? Because evolution is the cornerstone of all modern biology, the light without which nothing else in the field makes any sense?

But either way, you've dodged the question. I asked you to please lay out the logic that leads from "We have no viable model for our origins" to "God did it". Because I honestly don't know how you get from point A to point B. How do you connect those dots? You say it's obvious - well then lay it out for me.
 
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AV1611VET

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Because I honestly don't know how you get from point A to point B. How do you connect those dots? You say it's obvious - well then lay it out for me.
I'd love to show you.

You got a quarter on you?
 
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Colter

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If the Evolutionary creation story wasn't the only way to "explain" the existence of living things without invoking God, then its proponents would be much more willing to question whether or not the evidence for it is really as ironclad as they believe it is.

Myself, I've always just assumed the earth was old and God created the life on it. Cosmic evolution is still ongoing. I wonder what people like Abrahan & company thought, before scriptures?
 
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Subduction Zone

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IN other words if Jesus hadn't told us the truth, we too could be carried away into deception and gross darkness. Thank goodness the Light of the world did come though. No more in darkness.
When Jesus mentions the Genesis stories it is rather clear that it is a poetic statement. It is not a lie when you use a phrase on the order of "As Old as the Hills".
 
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Colter

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IN other words if Jesus hadn't told us the truth, we too could be carried away into deception and gross darkness. Thank goodness the Light of the world did come though. No more in darkness.

Jesus didn't reveal any unearned scientific knowledge, but he knew Cain found a wife in the land of Nod among the tribes Cain feared outside of his own. ;)
 
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Colter

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Only if they can't add.

The genealogies would still give them trouble.
When the Hebrew preist redacted the OT books in Babylon they used a localized flood legand to drown the whole world in its own wickedness, problem solved until science came along.
 
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AV1611VET

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When Jesus mentions the Genesis stories it is rather clear that it is a poetic statement.
It wasn't so clear to Luke, was it?

He traced Jesus' human lineage right through the book of Genesis and right up to God.
 
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Subduction Zone

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When the Hebrew preist redacted the OT books in Babylon they used a localized flood legand to drown the whole world in its own wickedness, problem solved until science came along.
The problem with a local flood is that it the Ark is all but unneeded. There was no need for the animals and it would not have wiped out humanity either.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It wasn't so clear to Luke, was it?

He traced Jesus' human lineage right through the book of Genesis and right up to God.
You should quit digging when you find yourself in a hole. The authors of Luke and Matthew fudged their nativity stories. That is rather obvious to anyone that investigates them at all.
 
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lifepsyop

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This is a simple demonstration of how easily Evolution accommodates its failed predictions, in what has been referred to as the "Problem of Homology", (though generally kept concealed and not communicated to the public.)

On the one hand, evolutionists argue that anatomical similarities shared between different species are 'homologs' and provide evidence of evolutionary relationships.

On the other hand, when such 'homologous' features are examined, it turns out that many of the traits in even closely related species are organized in fundamentally different ways during different stages of embryonic development.

In other words, the similar anatomical end-result is arrived at through entirely different developmental pathways.

Evolutionists are thus forced to accommodate a direct contradiction to their basic homology argument. Which is why the "problem of homology" is not advertised. No need to let inconvenient facts get in the way of a great public-relations talking point.


Embryology and common descent

Darwin and later evolutionists have argued that embryology provides powerful evidence for common descent. For at certain stages of embryonic development, widely varying species are remarkably similar. As one paper explains, “This classic observation has long been viewed as an emphatic realization of the principle of common descent.” (Kalinka and Tomancak) The prediction is that while species evolve, some embryonic stages are conserved.

But there are many examples of closely related species with unexpected embryonic differences. For example, Rana fusca of Southeast Asia and Rana esculents of Central Europe are two frog species. The eyes of R. fusca and R. esculents are, not surprisingly, quite similar and naturally are thought to be directly inherited from their common ancestor. Therefore they would be expected to derive from the same genes and the same embryonic development pathway. But R. fusca develops the lens from the epidermis on the optic cup. It is the optic cup that induces the epidermis to differentiate into the lens which ends up perfectly fitting. It makes sense that the lens perfectly fits in the optic cup since it is developing from the epidermis. R. esculents, however, develops the lens without the presence of the optic cup. In one case the optic cup is the inducer, in the other case the optic cup is irrelevant. It can be completely cut out. As Sir Gavin de Beer put it, the lenses in these two closely related species cannot be doubted to be homologous “yet they differ completely in the mechanism by which determination and differentiation are brought about. This is no isolated example.” (de Beer, 13) Indeed it is not an isolated example and de Beer asks: “What mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs, the same ‘patterns’, in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes?” (de Beer, 16)


Another example comes from the tomato (Solanum lycopersicum) and bittersweet (Solanum dulcamara) plants. The pollen-producing anther organs of these closely related species are both arranged as a cone. These cone structures appear only in a single clade within the genus. They would have traditionally been thought to derive from a common ancestor and so have similar embryonic development pathways. But whereas small hairs known as trichomes are required for the cone formation in the tomato, in bittersweet the trichomes surprisingly prevent the cone formation. As one study concluded, “these two species produce the same macroscopic structure through two mutually exclusive developmental routes and the robust anther cone is derived differently within the clade.” (Glover, Bunnewell and Martin)

Such similar structures, thought to have been inherited from a common ancestor yet developing from dissimilar initial states or different development pathways are “the rule rather than the exception.” (Alberch) As one researcher concluded, “Because there are so many examples of homologous structures arising from nonhomologous development processes, I believe homology can no longer retain its historical links to shared embryonic development.” (Hall)

https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/embryology-and-common-descent
 
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AV1611VET

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You should quit digging when you find yourself in a hole. The authors of Luke and Matthew fudged their nativity stories. That is rather obvious to anyone that investigates them at all.
Did history fudge their martyrdom?
 
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Subduction Zone

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This is a simple demonstration of how easily Evolution accommodates its failed predictions, in what has been referred to as the "Problem of Homology", (though generally kept concealed and not communicated to the public.)

On the one hand, evolutionists argue that anatomical similarities shared between different species are 'homologs' and provide evidence of evolutionary relationships.

On the other hand, when such 'homologous' features are examined, it turns out that many of the traits in even closely related species are organized in fundamentally different ways during different stages of embryonic development.

In other words, the similar anatomical end-result is arrived at through entirely different developmental pathways.

Evolutionists are thus forced to accommodate a direct contradiction to their basic homology argument. Which is why the "problem of homology" is not advertised. No need to let inconvenient facts get in the way of a great public-relations talking point.


Embryology and common descent

Darwin and later evolutionists have argued that embryology provides powerful evidence for common descent. For at certain stages of embryonic development, widely varying species are remarkably similar. As one paper explains, “This classic observation has long been viewed as an emphatic realization of the principle of common descent.” (Kalinka and Tomancak) The prediction is that while species evolve, some embryonic stages are conserved.

But there are many examples of closely related species with unexpected embryonic differences. For example, Rana fusca of Southeast Asia and Rana esculents of Central Europe are two frog species. The eyes of R. fusca and R. esculents are, not surprisingly, quite similar and naturally are thought to be directly inherited from their common ancestor. Therefore they would be expected to derive from the same genes and the same embryonic development pathway. But R. fusca develops the lens from the epidermis on the optic cup. It is the optic cup that induces the epidermis to differentiate into the lens which ends up perfectly fitting. It makes sense that the lens perfectly fits in the optic cup since it is developing from the epidermis. R. esculents, however, develops the lens without the presence of the optic cup. In one case the optic cup is the inducer, in the other case the optic cup is irrelevant. It can be completely cut out. As Sir Gavin de Beer put it, the lenses in these two closely related species cannot be doubted to be homologous “yet they differ completely in the mechanism by which determination and differentiation are brought about. This is no isolated example.” (de Beer, 13) Indeed it is not an isolated example and de Beer asks: “What mechanism can it be that results in the production of homologous organs, the same ‘patterns’, in spite of their not being controlled by the same genes?” (de Beer, 16)


Another example comes from the tomato (Solanum lycopersicum) and bittersweet (Solanum dulcamara) plants. The pollen-producing anther organs of these closely related species are both arranged as a cone. These cone structures appear only in a single clade within the genus. They would have traditionally been thought to derive from a common ancestor and so have similar embryonic development pathways. But whereas small hairs known as trichomes are required for the cone formation in the tomato, in bittersweet the trichomes surprisingly prevent the cone formation. As one study concluded, “these two species produce the same macroscopic structure through two mutually exclusive developmental routes and the robust anther cone is derived differently within the clade.” (Glover, Bunnewell and Martin)

Such similar structures, thought to have been inherited from a common ancestor yet developing from dissimilar initial states or different development pathways are “the rule rather than the exception.” (Alberch) As one researcher concluded, “Because there are so many examples of homologous structures arising from nonhomologous development processes, I believe homology can no longer retain its historical links to shared embryonic development.” (Hall)

https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/embryology-and-common-descent
Your link is merely a rather weak argument against the rarely used argument that ontongeny recapitulates phylogeny. Also you should have links to the sources that they claimed to use. They did no original scientific work themselves.
 
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Colter

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The problem with a local flood is that it the Ark is all but unneeded. There was no need for the animals and it would not have wiped out humanity either.

Right, let me be more clear, the flood would have been a local legand familiar to the audience that the newly minted creation narratives were intended for, the dejected, scattered Israelites. Noah's flood never happened as it is written in the scripture. Adam and Eve would have arrived on a previously populated, evolved earth. The A&E story was one of many creation stories in Mesopotamia available during the captivity period.
 
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AV1611VET

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Whose? I thought that we were discussing the authors of Luke and Matthew. Luke may have written Luke, but that is rather dubious.
With detective work like that, I could rob a bank, leaving my name and address behind, and then go home and put a huge sign up that says I robbed it, and never worry about getting caught.
 
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lifepsyop

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Your link is merely a rather weak argument against the rarely used argument that ontongeny recapitulates phylogeny.

Nope. Try mentally processing it for a few minutes before you respond. It reveals a fundamental contradiction in the evolutionist's reasoning for their homology argument, an argument which is presented constantly as evidence for common ancestry. If you don't understand this, then I question whether you even understand the basics of evolution theory.

Also you should have links to the sources that they claimed to use. They did no original scientific work themselves.

Again, take a few moments to process what you're reading. Instead of immediately spouting "you should have links to sources", try taking 30 seconds to actually view the sources at the link provided.

No embryologists deny this curious aspect of anatomical development. It has been known since the 1970's but it is simply not discussed when evolutionists are trotting out their arguments to the general public.
 
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