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The Deception of Evolution and the Fossil Sequence

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The Cadet

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Is this in the right thread?
My source may have a different worldview but that doesn't automatically contradict my claim.

And, somehow, we talked past each other again.

It's not about "worldviews". If we're talking about scientific evidence, I would generally assume we had cleared up the issue of "worldview" and were moving on to talk about, yanno, the evidence. And in this case, you're citing an expert opinion as evidence. The problem is that this expert clearly doesn't hold the position your source attributes to him. He believes that the evidence points to life arising in deep time through natural causes. He calls DNA a code because yeah, we can decode it and determine what it does, just like we can "decode" the mechanized functionality of any number of things in nature.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Interesting videos. Just one problem, though: Thewissen, the source we're looking at with regards to whale evolution, clearly holds that Ambulocetus is clearly a transitional form. I actually sent him an email asking him about those videos, because judging from the work of people like Ray Comfort and Ben Stein, we know popular creationists apparently have absolutely no qualms about dishonestly editing their videos to make very misleading points. I've sent Thewissen an email; let's see if he responds.

That's only a problem for him and believers in evolution. They can "believe" whatever they like - its called freedom of religion. It's only too bad the evidence doesn't back up that belief.

chap3_fossils_pic.gif

You can imagine a blowhole all you like or a fluke. Just please stop asserting as fact what the evidence does not show. In the end it comes down to belief, as the facts certainly do not support the stance.
 
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AV1611VET

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The problem is that this expert clearly doesn't hold the position your source attributes to him. He believes that the evidence points to life arising in deep time through natural causes.

You wouldn't happen to have a list of approved experts, would you?

That would certainly simplify things around here.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You wouldn't happen to have a list of approved experts, would you?

That would certainly simplify things around here.

No such thing exists, because even the experts can be wrong. Just because an expert claims something had a blowhole does not make pure speculation science since no end parts of the snout have ever been found. But wasn't it those same experts that claimed nanotyrannus was a separate species instead of just the young of tyrannosaurus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotyrannus

How about we clear up all those incorrect classifications first and then we'll start looking at what's left.
 
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AV1611VET

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No such thing exists, because even the experts can be wrong.

What does it matter if he is right or wrong?

All that matters is that he is on the list.

Just because an expert claims something had a blowhole does not make pure speculation science since no end parts of the snout have ever been found. But wasn't it those same experts that claimed nanotyrannus was a separate species instead of just the young of tyrannosaurus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotyrannus

How about we clear up all those incorrect classifications first and then we'll start looking at what's left.

Good point.

 
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Justatruthseeker

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What does it matter if he is right or wrong?

All that matters is that he is on the list.



Good point.


But if he's wrong - then he shouldn't be on the list at all - because then you would trust someone who was wrong thinking they were right because they were on the approved list.

Almost every scientist believed the Milky-Way was the entire universe a mere 100 years ago. Should they be on the list, since everything they believed is now believed to be wrong? And who will make the list, the same ones that can be wrong because others agree with him? No, it's best to have no list at all and judge each by the merits of their proposals.
 
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Smidlee

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And, somehow, we talked past each other again.

It's not about "worldviews". If we're talking about scientific evidence, I would generally assume we had cleared up the issue of "worldview" and were moving on to talk about, yanno, the evidence. And in this case, you're citing an expert opinion as evidence. The problem is that this expert clearly doesn't hold the position your source attributes to him. He believes that the evidence points to life arising in deep time through natural causes. He calls DNA a code because yeah, we can decode it and determine what it does, just like we can "decode" the mechanized functionality of any number of things in nature.
Yes he believes that all life came from a single cell is a worldview I'm talking about. A person interprets evidence according to their worldview. He in reality use his knowledge of breaking man-made code which was intelligent designed to break a code in the DNA. I can't help but not see a connection.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Yes he believes that all life came from a single cell is a worldview I'm talking about. A person interprets evidence according to their worldview. He in reality use his knowledge of breaking man-made code which was intelligent designed to break a code in the DNA. I can't help but not see a connection.

It's those ViewMaster's at work, regardless of which worldview one talks about...
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ha! Easy on the scorn there, tiger. Once is on your side of the fence.

Then once certainly has my sincere apology - but that was the next logical response from the evolutionary camp - to suddenly disclaim who they previously regarded as an expert, because he calls their entire theory into question - more than it already has been shown to be, while still relying on the data this now non-expert has given them in the past, because when he agreed with them he was of course an expert.

So if Once really just wanted to know who he was you have my sincere apology Once.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Then once certainly has my sincere apology - but that was the next logical response from the evolutionary camp - to suddenly disclaim who they previously regarded as an expert, because he calls their entire theory into question - more than it already has been shown to be, while still relying on the data this now non-expert has given them in the past, because when he agreed with them he was of course an expert.

So if Once really just wanted to know who he was you have my sincere apology Once.
The problem is that you constantly misrepresent his work. When you make claims about him you never back those up. That is not the correct way to debate.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The problem is that you constantly misrepresent his work. When you make claims about him you never back those up. That is not the correct way to debate.

As I said, actually watch the video and listen to his words. But because you never have is the only reason you make such an absurd claim. In plain English he tells you that of the 12 major groups studied - they found 2 of every 3 classified as a separate species to be the same species - just younger or older. So of the 36 fossil species looked at, 24 were incorrectly classified.

Not just one or two or even 10 wrong, but 2 of 3 in each of the 12 groups they looked at. But the other 200,000 or however many groups you got left to look at are all perfectly correct, right?????
 
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lifepsyop

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That's only a problem for him and believers in evolution. They can "believe" whatever they like - its called freedom of religion. It's only too bad the evidence doesn't back up that belief.

chap3_fossils_pic.gif

You can imagine a blowhole all you like or a fluke. Just please stop asserting as fact what the evidence does not show. In the end it comes down to belief, as the facts certainly do not support the stance.

Isn't it sad that evolutionists believe these "transitions" are well supported? It really is like a mind-control cult. They have these types of mystical apparitions about how animals transformed and then they just keep repeating it over and over again. It doesn't matter how many times you show them how flimsy the actual evidence is for it, they will drown you out in mantras of the great vision their evolutionary priesthood has revealed.
 
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lifepsyop

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It is dishonest to keep posting that video to support your assertion that two out of three fossils are misidentified. I challenged you to pull any quote from that video to support your interpretation and, to no one's surprise, you've been unable to. And I bet you can provide no justification for extrapolating the Horner's results for a few species to the entire fossil record.

Atheos, how can you deny the implications such a discovery has across the entire fossil record? Especially reptilian/diapsid orders that seem to be the most prone to this phenomena. As I mentioned before, the classification problem is not only limited to animals found in different life-cycle stages, but the effects of plasticity on the same species living in significantly different environments. (another quality that reptiles are known to exhibit)

The implications are obvious. Major portions of taxonomy are probably in serious error. I'm sure that you of all people understand this.

The silence from the evolutionary community is deafening. We are always told that major scientific upsets are welcomed by scientists, but in reality that isn't true. If certain problems are considered too inconvenient to the current order of things, they will be ignored. We are witnessing that first-hand.

The reason for this is that the evolutionary community knows it is political suicide to admit how much of their classification system could very well be completely wrong. It will lend an unacceptable level of comfort to the ideological enemy. (Creationists or ID proponents) Thus the true and obvious scientific implications simply cannot be discussed. That is the reality of the academic world. Protection of the applecart.
 
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The Cadet

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Atheos, how can you deny the implications such a discovery has across the entire fossil record? Especially reptilian/diapsid orders that seem to be the most prone to this phenomena. As I mentioned before, the classification problem is not only limited to animals found in different life-cycle stages, but the effects of plasticity on the same species living in significantly different environments. (another quality that reptiles are known to exhibit)

The implications are obvious. Major portions of taxonomy are probably in serious error. I'm sure that you of all people understand this.

pwnd.PNG


The silence from the evolutionary community is deafening. We are always told that major scientific upsets are welcomed by scientists, but in reality that isn't true. If certain problems are considered too inconvenient to the current order of things, they will be ignored. We are witnessing that first-hand.

No, it's just you and various other creationists blowing a small discovery way, way out of proportion. There is no major scientific upset here. Horner found some very interesting discrepancies in the fossil record of dinosaurs. This does not have any major impact on anything else, however.
 
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Subduction Zone

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As I said, actually watch the video and listen to his words. But because you never have is the only reason you make such an absurd claim. In plain English he tells you that of the 12 major groups studied - they found 2 of every 3 classified as a separate species to be the same species - just younger or older. So of the 36 fossil species looked at, 24 were incorrectly classified.

Not just one or two or even 10 wrong, but 2 of 3 in each of the 12 groups they looked at. But the other 200,000 or however many groups you got left to look at are all perfectly correct, right?????
Where does he ever say that? He gave a couple of examples where some of the classifications may have been wrong, but even he only went from 12 to 7. If your claim was right he would have gone from 12 to 4. As usual your mathematical skills are lacking. And it is fairly clear that he overstated his case. For example this article explains rather well how he is wrong in at least the case of the triceratops:

https://earthlingnature.wordpress.c...rner-1-the-holes-in-the-old-triceratops-idea/

And even if Jack was right, which does not look to be the case, how is that an argument against evolution at all? Evolution is still the only working explanation of the fossil record. Creationists do not have any explanation that has not been shown to be fatally wrong.
 
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lifepsyop

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You should provide more than your mere assertion that such strong consilience is relatively insignificant. Perhaps you could give more detail. If, as we know, it is entirely possible to have similar morphology or function without similar molecules, why is this overwhelming consilience between the two data sets not to be considered support for the idea that the consilient patterns of similarities and differences are the result of ancestry? You say it is not, but you give no detail beyond the same morphology same molecules mantra.

I can just as easily turn this back on you. Your claimed support for Evolution relies on the notion that Non-Evolution would be expected to produce dissimilar molecules within similar morphology. But you can offer no answer here except for claims about how God would choose design. So what do you have beyond mere assertion and mantra?

Can you honestly say a good scientific argument for Evolution is one that relies on teleological thought experiments?


The implication that God would not (or at least has no reason to) do things thus is implied, but not really necessary. The consilience among the data sets is most parsimoniously explained by evolutionary theory.

Oh please. As long as we all agree to what you assume is "most parsimonious".

(By the way, some might argue that the idea of fish turning into men over time is of questionable parsimony.)


The teleology only comes in when we are trying to point out that it is not very logical in the context of what we are told about God to suggest that he would be limited to using similar molecules for similar morphologies (except when he doesn't).

Again, using similar design patterns to produce similar function is a concept that aligns with everything we know about actual singular designers in the universe. This presents a reasonable assumption to expect a similar pattern in a single designer of life.

This would perhaps be convincing if you imagined god as being humanlike in his creative process, but he patently isn't.

Well the Bible does say that Man is made in God's image. What if human designers do in fact reflect God's creative style in some way? In any case, the only empirical way we can make statements about the behavior of an intelligent creator is to draw from observable examples.

He is omnipotent. He can create with a word. A human designer copies elements because he is limited by time or money or imagination or will or whatever. Your God is not subject to such limitations, is he? Why would a timeless, omnipotent being need to take into consideration time and effort?

Your error here is assuming a consistent design style is only for economical reasons. But that isn't true. People also take pleasure in creating with consistency. The idea of having a beautifully designed morphological and molecular animal template to draw iterations from, and then suddenly inserting awkward molecular contradictions into a handful of those animals makes me envision gluing macaroni and rhinestones onto sections of a beautiful canvas oil painting, just because one can. It sounds ugly.

Also, if we're to go on the Bible, it seems God did choose to limit himself by creating everything in 6 days rather than an instant. If he is ominpotent, why would he do such a thing unless it gave him pleasure to work within chosen constraints? A painter will still choose to limit themselves and enjoy the creative act, whether or not he is under time limits.

The "he would because he could" argument doesn't seem very persuasive in general.

Of course you can claim the he did it this way because you can say anything about a being of unverifiable abilities,.

The same way you are claiming a God would be equally expected to create deliberately awkward inconsistent patterns just because he could? Your whole argument is resting on that assumption. Otherwise we are back to the trivial observation that 'similar things are similar' that Evolution desperately wants to take credit for.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Isn't it sad that evolutionists believe these "transitions" are well supported? It really is like a mind-control cult. They have these types of mystical apparitions about how animals transformed and then they just keep repeating it over and over again. It doesn't matter how many times you show them how flimsy the actual evidence is for it, they will drown you out in mantras of the great vision their evolutionary priesthood has revealed.

It's a religion of it's own - a dogma so entrenched it is no longer falsifiable. Which I have no problem with freedom of religion - we are entitled to our beliefs. Even if they are incorrect ones. That's what fanatics do - repeat things over and over so it becomes ingrained and nothing else can penetrate. The funny part is the fossil record and all genetics supports Kind after Kind, yet they insist we ignore it and pretend it happens differently than observed.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's a religion of it's own - a dogma so entrenched it is no longer falsifiable. Which I have no problem with freedom of religion - we are entitled to our beliefs. Even if they are incorrect ones. That's what fanatics do - repeat things over and over so it becomes ingrained and nothing else can penetrate. The funny part is the fossil record and all genetics supports Kind after Kind, yet they insist we ignore it and pretend it happens differently than observed.

Now Justa you know that is not true. The theory could be refuted by many different means. Of course if the theory is correct, and that definitely seems to be the case, then it will be impossible to refute. That would explain why creationists are so frustrated.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Says the evolutionist who apparently doesn't know his paleontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Horner_(paleontologist)

"He is one of the best-known paleontologists in the United States....

...Within the paleontological community, Horner is best known for his work on the cutting edge of dinosaur growth research....

...Horner has published more than 100 professional papers, six popular books"

So now suddenly he's a nobody? Lol, half the stuff you now believe is because of him, and you an evolutionists don't know who he is? I can believe that since most of you get all your education from blog sites.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Says the evolutionist who apparently doesn't know his paleontology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Horner_(paleontologist)

"He is one of the best-known paleontologists in the United States....

...Within the paleontological community, Horner is best known for his work on the cutting edge of dinosaur growth research....

...Horner has published more than 100 professional papers, six popular books"

So now suddenly he's a nobody? Lol, half the stuff you now believe is because of him, and you an evolutionists don't know who he is? I can believe that since most of you get all your education from blog sites.

This new site is the pits. I first and foremost am a Christian. I am not an evolutionist. I am not a paleontologist and was unfamiliar with this person and only asking who he was. Thank you for the information but it was given pretty rudely.
 
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