The Dangerous Confusion & Delusion In Dispensationalism & Christian Zionism Doctrines

[BABerean2]

Note that someone doesn't have to be a dispensationalist to understand that "there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" (Romans 11:26) refers to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming, when the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will get saved when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14).

Also, in Romans 11:26, the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), i.e. the salvation of all surviving, elect, genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fulness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c.

That is, when Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25c), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Based on your logic, none of those who oppose Christ at the battle of Armageddon can have any distant Jewish ancestors, because if they did this minute amount of Jewish DNA would cause them to accept Christ as their Messiah when they see him.

It would also mean that the antichrist cannot have a remote Jewish ancestor, because if he did, he would accept Christ as his Messiah as soon as He appeared at the Second Coming.

Can you define the term "genetic Jew"?

What percentage of Jacob's DNA is required for instant Messiah recognition?

Why did the Pharisees reject Christ if they were genetic Jews?


[/B]

 

[Biblewriter]

What does the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza have in common with a book written by Mid-Acts Dispensationalist C.R. Stam and John Hagee's recent sermon?

They all changed one little word in Romans 11:26.

They all changed the word "so" which is an adverb of manner, to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
The word used in the Greek was "houto" which is clearly defined as...
"in this manner".



Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The following text comes from page 349 of Lacunza's book.

"The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah."

This is a tremendous coincidence since we have been told on numerous occasions that Dispensational Theology has nothing to do with Lacunza or Edward Irving.

Maybe we can get BW on this to see if he can find out if Lowth or some earlier source among the ECF made this same replacement of words.

Changing one little word of scripture can make a big difference.


Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

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I have listened to this nonsense long enough. Lacunza's statement, as you have quoted it, it completely accurate. Going entirely by your quotation (I did not bother, for the sake of this answer, to even check to see it you quoted it correctly.) Just going by your quotation, what this says is entirely correct and scriptural.

Assuming you have quoted him accurately, Lacunza did not say that the apostle said "then." He correctly stated what the apostle had said. And then he stated the time at which this would come to pass. And he stated that correctly. So you are building a straw horse so you can knock it down.

I very strongly suspect that this is also the case in all the other places where you accuse dispensationalists of changing a word of scripture.

You are simply (and in most cases, falsely) flaming dispensationalism in general and some dispensationalists in particular, in continuing and blatant defiance of the rules of this forum.

 

[Straightshot]

"Can you define the term "genetic Jew"?

What percentage of Jacob's DNA is required for instant Messiah recognition?

Why did the Pharisees reject Christ if they were genetic Jews?"


There is One who knows the answers to all of the questions above, the "Jew" Jesus Christ

You should read His book, but you most likely will not like His answers

Questioning the Lord and rebuking Him is not a good idea and when He tells you things like [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36; Romans 11:25-36] .... better listen

 

[Biblewriter]

The scriptures are absolutely clear that many of the true genetic descendants of the ancient nation of Israel will not believe in Christ when He comes.

Ezekiel 20 treats this in detail, plainly stating that these will be purged out from among them. And other scriptures make it equally plain that the form of this purging will be by means of death.

It is only after this has taken place that all Israel will be saved.

 

[Straightshot]

True BW

[Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

Only those mortals who believe of the Israel remnant in their Messiah and King will be saved to enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46 .... the Lord's "brethren" [kin] in the passage] .... the balance will be killed in the tribulation [taken in the judgment of Jacob's trouble] and lost forever

Here are the first ones [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7] of the "many" [Daniel 9:24-27]

 

[BABerean2]

I have listened to this nonsense long enough. Lacunza's statement, as you have quoted it, it completely accurate. Going entirely by your quotation (I did not bother, for the sake of this answer, to even check to see it you quoted it correctly.) Just going by your quotation, what this says is entirely correct and scriptural.

Assuming you have quoted him accurately, Lacunza did not say that the apostle said "then." He correctly stated what the apostle had said. And then he stated the time at which this would come to pass. And he stated that correctly. So you are building a straw horse so you can knock it down.

I very strongly suspect that this is also the case in all the other places where you accuse dispensationalists of changing a word of scripture.

You are simply (and in most cases, falsely) flaming dispensationalism in general and some dispensationalists in particular, in continuing and blatant defiance of the rules of this forum.

So-->then, you may not think changing one word of scripture is a big deal.

However, many of us do, especially when it changes the meaning of the verse.

We are also given a specific warning on the last page of God's Word, not to change anything.



Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


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[Biblewriter]

So-->then, you may not think changing one word of scripture is a big deal.

However, many of us do, especially when it changes the meaning of the verse.

We are also given a specific warning on the last page of God's Word, not to change anything.



Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


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I absolutely condemn changing even a single syllable of scripture as heresy. Pure and simple.

But claiming someone is changing a word of scripture is libel, when he did not do that.

Lacunza made two statements, both of which were absolutely correct. He correctly quoted the apostle, and then he stated when this would be accomplished. But the words "then all Israel will be saved"were not presented as a quotation. So you are pressing a false charge against a man who, having died, cannot defend himself against your libel.

I also consider it heresy to deny that any scripture is important. But you want us to ignore all Old Testament prophecy unless it is repeated in the New Testament.

 

[Straightshot]

The entire rant about Lacunza and Darby is a pure hoax and should not even be given any credence .... all an extra biblical story of the tabloids

The prophetic scriptures record nothing about such nonsense

If this idiotic view was really significant and of any substance, it would be there

 

[BABerean2]

I absolutely condemn changing even a single syllable of scripture as heresy. Pure and simple.

But claiming someone is changing a word of scripture is libel, when he did not do that.

Lacunza made two statements, both of which were absolutely correct. He correctly quoted the apostle, and then he stated when this would be accomplished. But the words "then all Israel will be saved"were not presented as a quotation. So you are pressing a false charge against a man who, having died, cannot defend himself against your libel.

I also consider it heresy to deny that any scripture is important. But you want us to ignore all Old Testament prophecy unless it is repeated in the New Testament.

I want all of us to interpret the Old Testament through the New Testament.
That is what Peter plainly did on the day of Pentecost, when he talked about the fulfillment of at least part of Joel's prophecy.

However, instead of comparing what is written in Joel to what is written in Acts, many on your team throw out the word "preterist" and then pretend to ignore what is plainly written in God's Word.

And then you claim this is a "literal" interpretation of scripture.


If Jesus and the New Testament writers did not confirm what you believe is in the Old Testament, then you may want to convert to Judaism.



Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

........................................................

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter quoted the text from Joel and said it was fulfilled, but you ignore it because it does not fit your manmade doctrine.

 

[Straightshot]

Peter quoted the text from Joel and said it was fulfilled, but you ignore it because it does not fit your manmade doctrine


This was true for a few of Israel in the first century, but the greater fulfillment for Israel is still pending as Joel and the other related visions of the prophets conclude .... all tell of many things that just have not yet taken place and are scheduled for Israel's restoration [Ezekiel 36; Micah 5; Romans 11:25-36]

 

[random person]

The scriptures are absolutely clear that many of the true genetic descendants of the ancient nation of Israel will not believe in Christ when He comes.

Ezekiel 20 treats this in detail, plainly stating that these will be purged out from among them. And other scriptures make it equally plain that the form of this purging will be by means of death.

It is only after this has taken place that all Israel will be saved.

Eligibility requirements[edit]
Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to gain citizenship in Israel. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew."

A Jew can be excluded from Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return if he or she is considered to be dangerous to the welfare of the State of Israel. Jews who have a past that involves a serious crime, such as murder, or who are fugitives in another country for any felony (unless they are persecution victims) can be denied citizenship. This clause has been used to exclude applicants a handful of times since Israel's establishment. Notable cases include Robert Soblen, an American Communist who spied for the Soviet Union and fled to Israel in an attempt to escape a life sentence, Meyer Lansky, an American mobster who was initially granted entry to Israel but was expelled two years later, and Victor Vancier, an American Kahanist activist convicted of involvement in a series of bombings.

Law of Return - Eligibility Requirements

Dispensationalism is a neadertalic theology.

Entertainers and Judaism converts Tom Arnold, Scott Glenn, Madonna can immigrate to Israel and attempt to survive the "Great Tribulation".

The point is anybody can convert to Judaism and immigrate to Israel.

But the Kingdom of God unequivocally states there is no circumcision, there is no uncircumcision, there is no Jew, there is no Gentile!

Read it in Colossians 3:11

"unga-bunga!"

That's caveman speech!

Being Jewish is not ethnical or a race!!!!!!!

 

[random person]

Imagine what would happen if every Palestinian refugee converted to Judaism?

Israel could no longer deny their right of return!

Hahahaha!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Imagine what would happen if every Palestinian refugee converted to Judaism?

Israel could no longer deny their right of return!

Hahahaha!

Now that would be a sight to behold.......

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites!
That ye are going about the Sea and the Dry to make one proselyte/proshluton <4339>;
and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him son of gehenna twofold more of ye.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And you have done an exemplary job BW .... but random person does not care

He is stuck in the randomness of preterism .... a doctrine which was also concocted after the Lord's Word on the issue was completed

The early "church" fathers of the RCC did the same as random person ascribes to Darby

What about it random person? .... tell the forum where preterism is rooted and give commentary

There are different flavors of "Preterism" just as there are different flavors of "Futurism"
The major sticky point appears to be mainly concerned with that "1000yr" period in Revelation and when Revelation was written
Full preterism can not be discussed on the eschatology board...........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/full-preterist-safe-house.7784643/#post-64413909
Full Preterist Safe House

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...urative-full-preterism.7971755/#post-70299721
The 1,000 Year Reign Of Christ? Literal or Figurative? (Full Preterism)

 

[Biblewriter]

What does the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza have in common with a book written by Mid-Acts Dispensationalist C.R. Stam and John Hagee's recent sermon?

They all changed one little word in Romans 11:26.

They all changed the word "so" which is an adverb of manner, to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
The word used in the Greek was "houto" which is clearly defined as...
"in this manner".

The falsehood of this claim has been repeatedly demonstrated in this forum.

 

[Biblewriter]

So-->then, if Darby did not get any of his Dispensational doctrine from Lacunza, can you explain how Lacunza's replacement of the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then" has become a part of modern Dispensational theology.

Did modern Dispensationalists get it directly from Lacunza?

.

Very few modern dispensationalists have ever read anything by Lacunza. But Lacunza was NOT the originator of dispensational thinking, it has been clearly traced to MANY teachers who wrote LONG before Lacunza.

 

[Biblewriter]

So-->then, you may not think changing one word of scripture is a big deal.

However, many of us do, especially when it changes the meaning of the verse.

We are also given a specific warning on the last page of God's Word, not to change anything.



Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


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What I CORRECTLY said was, that Lacunza, as you quoted him, did NOT change EVEN ONE word of scripture. The timing of the event being discussed in Romans 9:26 did not come from that verse, but from the preceding one, verse 25, which had just clearly stated the timing. You are the one attempting to change scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

Very few modern dispensationalists have ever read anything by Lacunza. But Lacunza was NOT the originator of dispensational thinking, it has been clearly traced to MANY teachers who wrote LONG before Lacunza. And this has included MANY who clearly taught that eventually all Israel would be saved, including numerous writers from the first few centuries of the church, and MANY more from the 1600s and early 1700s, before Lacunza wrote anything. This was taught by so many writers because it is CLEARLY stated in MANY scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

Very few modern dispensationalists have ever read anything by Lacunza. But Lacunza was NOT the originator of dispensational thinking, it has been clearly traced to MANY teachers who wrote LONG before Lacunza. And this has included MANY who clearly taught that eventually all Israel would be saved, including numerous writers from the first few centuries of the church, and MANY more from the 1600s and early 1700s, before Lacunza wrote anything. This was taught by so many writers because it is CLEARLY stated in MANY scriptures.

Dispensationalists must believe the Apostle Paul was suffering from severe schizophrenia.


In Romans 9:6-8 Paul reveals the difference between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

In Romans 9:27 Paul quotes from the Old Testament that a "remnant" of Israel will be saved.

In Romans 11:1-5 Paul describes two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not during the time of Elijah.
Paul said there was also a faithful "remnant" during his time.

Dispensationalists claim that Paul said in Romans 11:26 all Israelites will be saved.

Did Paul change his mind between chapter 9 and chapter 11, of the same letter to the church at Rome?

Or are Dispensationalists changing the word "so", which is an adverb or manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26?

I have heard a Dispensational preacher make this change during their television sermon.

I have heard Dr. David Jeremiah leave out the word "so", when quoting Romans 11:26.

Changing the word "so" to the word "then" is found on page 349 of Manuel Lacunza's book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty".

Go to time 25:30 in the video below to see it for yourself.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Very few modern dispensationalists have ever read anything by Lacunza. But Lacunza was NOT the originator of dispensational thinking, it has been clearly traced to MANY teachers who wrote LONG before Lacunza. And this has included MANY who clearly taught that eventually all Israel would be saved, including numerous writers from the first few centuries of the church, and MANY more from the 1600s and early 1700s, before Lacunza wrote anything. This was taught by so many writers because it is CLEARLY stated in MANY scriptures.

Interesting character. [Much simpler to just be a preterist .....]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Lacunza
*snip*.............

As Lacunza compared his own personal view on the identity of the Antichrist with Ribera's views within his book 'The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory', thus both views of the Jesuits on the identity of the Antichrist were effectively presented to Protestantism within its pages. While Irving rejected Lacunza's personal view - that there would be a general moral apostasy within the church; he instead readily accepted Ribera's view, which taught that the Antichrist would be a "Jewish destroyer" who would wreak havoc upon the earth.
By the mid-nineteenth century, it had taken shape under a system known as Dispensationalism, which forms the basis of a prophetic mode of Biblical interpretation, which is known as Futurism.
According to church historian Le Roy Froom, this interpretation of 'The Futurist view of an individual Jewish Antichrist was unknown among the Protestants of North America prior to the nineteenth century.' [18]

Futurist interpretations of prophecy differed from that of Baptist preacher William Miller and other prominent Protestants of the period, whose focus was on a mode of Biblical prophecy which is known as Historicism.
This was inclusive of men such as Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran Church in Germany, John Knox, founder of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland, Roger Williams, founder of the Baptist Church in the United States of America, Charles Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church in England, and prominent 17th century scientist, Sir Isaac Newton, who discovered the Law of Gravity.

While Futurism teaches that most of the events which are described in the Book of Revelation (including the appearance of the Antichrist) will take place sometime in an indefinite future, purveyors of Historicism believe that the exegesis and hermeneutics of prophetic revelation are principally found in the Biblical books of Daniel and the Revelation.

While Daniel describes events of that period until the first advent of Christ, at which an outline of the history of the Christian church is given until the second advent of Christ, the Book of Revelation begins in the first century A.D and then outlines the prophetic fate of the church, which continues to the second coming of Christ. According to Historicists, 'The Books of Daniel and the Revelation explain each other, they fit like a hand in a glove.'' [19] Historicist author/evangelist Kenneth Cox believes that Christ Himself has instructed the reader to read Daniel, so that 'whoever reads [Daniel], let him understand' [20]