The Dangerous Confusion & Delusion In Dispensationalism & Christian Zionism Doctrines

Biblewriter

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Interesting character. [Much simpler to just be a preterist .....:idea:]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Lacunza
*snip*.............

As Lacunza compared his own personal view on the identity of the Antichrist with Ribera's views within his book 'The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory', thus both views of the Jesuits on the identity of the Antichrist were effectively presented to Protestantism within its pages. While Irving rejected Lacunza's personal view - that there would be a general moral apostasy within the church; he instead readily accepted Ribera's view, which taught that the Antichrist would be a "Jewish destroyer" who would wreak havoc upon the earth.
Are you aware that Lacunza's book was suppressed by the Catholic church?

By the mid-nineteenth century, it had taken shape under a system known as Dispensationalism, which forms the basis of a prophetic mode of Biblical interpretation, which is known as Futurism.
According to church historian Le Roy Froom, this interpretation of 'The Futurist view of an individual Jewish Antichrist was unknown among the Protestants of North America prior to the nineteenth century.' [18]

If this is true, then none of them ever bothered to read any of the eschatologial writings of the early church.
Historicist author/evangelist Kenneth Cox believes that Christ Himself has instructed the reader to read Daniel, so that 'whoever reads [Daniel], let him understand' [20]
I agree with him on that.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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During the 19th century, a peculiar doctrine known as "dispensationalism" arose. Its leading lights were Darby and Scofield; its bible was the Scofield Reference Bible; and in recent years its primary headquarters has been the Dallas Theological Seminary. Technically, dispensationalism teaches that God has two peoples in the history of the world: Israel and the "Church". We presently live in the "Church Age", and God's people today are Christians, the church. At the present time, the Jews are apostate enemies of God and of Christ, and are under God's judgment until they repent.

Someday soon (Its always soon!), Christ will return to earth invisibly and snatch away all the church - Christians (this is called "the Rapture" of the saints). At that point, God will go back to dealing with Israel. There will be a seven-year period called "The Tribulation", and during that period, apostate Jewry will form an anti-God alliance with the Beast, but God will begin to convert the Jews, and in time the Beast will turn and begin to persecute these converted Jews. Just when things looks hopeless, Christ will return and inaugurate the Millennium.

One other point to note: There are absolutely no signs that the Rapture of the church is near. It will come "as a thief in the night."

Now, this entire scheme, though popular in recent years, has no roots in historic Christian interpretation of the Scriptures, and at present it is collapsing under the weight of criticism from bible-believing scholars of a more historically orthodox persuasion. All the same, there are several things to note.

First, by teaching that there are no signs that precede the Rapture, dispensationalism clearly implies that the modern State of Israel has nothing to do with bible prophecy. If Israel collapsed tomorrow, it would make no difference. The existance of the State of Israel, while it may encourage dispensationalists to believe that the Rapture is near, is of no theologically prophetic importance.

Second, dispensationalism teaches that Jews of today, and even into the Tribulation period, are apostate, and this certainly implies that they are under the wrath and judgment of God. Christians should minister to them, and try to convert them, and show them all kindness as fellow human beings; but Christians should understand that during the Church Age, the Jews are not the people of God. Rather, the church is the people of God today.

Third, by teaching that Israel is "set aside" during the Church Age, dispensationalism clearly implies that the promises made to Israel are also "set aside" during that period. The land promise, and the promise "those who bless you, I will bless," have been set aside, until we re-enter "prophetic time". Thus, the Jews have no right to the land during the Church Age, and also there is no particular blessing for Gentiles who treat the Jews with especial favor.

Fourth, dispensational theologians are most strict on the point that the church is a "new people," composed as one body in Christ of both Jew and Gentile. During the Church Age, the distinction between these two is not to be felt in the church. Thus, dispensational theology is, by implication, opposed to the kind of standpoint articulated in many "Messianic Jewish" groups.


- James B Jordan, from his article Christian Zionism And Messianic Judaism
I call it the "Spider Web Doctrine" and "a different Gospel"...........

Galatians 1:
6I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different "good news"; 7and there isn't another "good news." Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Good News of Christ. 8But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any "good news" other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.
9As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any "good news" other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library


.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
=======
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
========================
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I by Gospel Plow – Grace Online Library

spider web 2.gif
 
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BABerean2

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I call it the "Spider Web Doctrine" and "a different Gospel"...........

Galatians 1:
6I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different "good news"; 7and there isn't another "good news." Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Good News of Christ. 8But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any "good news" other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. 9As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any "good news" other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library


.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
========================
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I by Gospel Plow – Grace Online Library



View attachment 260841

I was watching a TV program today produced by promoters of Dispensational Theology.
The title of the program is "Prophecy Watchers".


During the program one of the speakers changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

Any person who has to change God's Word to make their doctrine work, needs to examine their doctrine for what it really is.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I was watching a TV program today produced by promoters of Dispensational Theology.
The title of the program is "Prophecy Watchers".


During the program one of the speakers changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

Any person who has to change God's Word to make their doctrine work, needs to examine their doctrine for what it really is.

.
:angel:

Roman 11:26
and thus
<3779> all Israel shall be being saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

26 καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται· καθὼς γέγραπται, ἥξει1 ἐκ Σιὼν2 ὁ ῥυόμενος3, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας4 ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ·5

3779. houto hoo'-to, or (before a vowel houtos hoo'-toce adverb from 3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):--after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
=========================

Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 11:26 f. Καὶ οὕτω] And so, namely, after the πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν shall have come in. The modal character of the οὕτω therefore lies in the succession of time conditioning the emergence of the fact (comp. 1 Corinthians 11:28), as it also in the classics, in the sense of so then, embraces what has been previously said. See Schweighäuser, Lex. Herod. II. p. 167; Thucyd. iii. 96. 2; Xen. Anab. iii. 5. 6; Dem. 644. 18, 802. 20. Theodoret rightly says: τῶν γὰρ ἐθνῶν δεξαμένων τὸ κήρυγμα πιστεύσουσι κἀκεῖνοι, and that, according to Romans 11:11, under the impulse of powerful emulation. We may add that this great final result is brought into more important prominence, if we take ΚΑῚ ΟὝΤΩ Κ.Τ.Λ. independently, than if we make it form part of the statement dependent on ὍΤΙ (Lachmann, Tischendorf, Fritzsche, Ewald, Hofmann, and others).
========================
Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:26. καὶ οὕτως = and thus; not merely temporal, but = under the influence of the jealousy so excited—under the impression produced on the Jews by the sight of the Gentiles in their fulness peopling the kingdom—all Israel shall be saved. This is an independent sentence. For πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ see 1 Kings 12:1, 2 Chronicles 12:1. It means Israel as a whole. Paul is thinking of the historical people, as the contrast with Gentiles shows, but he is not thinking of them one by one. Israel a Christian nation, Israel as a nation a part of the Messianic kingdom, is the content of his thought. To make πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ refer to a “spiritual” Israel, or to the elect, is to miss the mark: it foretells a “conversion of the Jews so universal that the separation into an ‘elect remnant’ and ‘the rest who were hardened’ shall disappear” (Gifford). καθὼς γέγραπται Isaiah 59:20 f., but the last words ὅταν ἀφέλωμαι κ.τ.λ. from Isaiah 27:9. The prophet says ἕνεκεν Σίων Paul’s ἐκ Σιὼν is probably a lapse of memory, due to the impression of passages like Ps. 14:7, 53:7, Isaiah 2:3, though Philippi thinks it intentional—the object being to emphasise the title of the Jews, as against the Gentiles, to a share in the kingdom. It is then as if he said: Salvation is of the Jews, and surely therefore for them. It is impossible to say that ἥξει refers to the first or to the second advent: the distinction is not present to Paul’s mind as he writes; all he is concerned with is the fact that in prophetic scripture language is used which implies that Israel as a people is to inherit the Messianic salvation. ὁ ῥυόμενος, Hebrew גֹּאֵל is the Messiah. ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας. Cf. Bar 3:7, 1Ma 4:58.
====================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

26. And so all Israel shall be saved] Several interpretations of these words are in themselves legitimate. They may refer (A) to the natural Israel, the Jews; or (B) to the “Israel of God,” the true Church of Christ. Again, if the reference (A) is adopted, the prophecy may mean (a) that then all the elect of Israel shall at length be gathered in—the long process shall at length be complete; or (b) that every individual of the then generation of Jews shall be brought to Messiah’s grace; or (c) that “all” bears a less exact reference here, as so often in Scripture, and means “in general;”—“Israel in general, the Jews of that day as a great aggregate, on a scale unknown before, shall be saved.”
 
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Biblewriter

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:angel:

Roman 11:26
and thus
<3779> all Israel shall be being saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

26 καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται· καθὼς γέγραπται, ἥξει1 ἐκ Σιὼν2 ὁ ῥυόμενος3, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας4 ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ·5

3779. houto hoo'-to, or (before a vowel houtos hoo'-toce adverb from 3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):--after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
=========================

Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 11:26 f. Καὶ οὕτω] And so, namely, after the πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν shall have come in. The modal character of the οὕτω therefore lies in the succession of time conditioning the emergence of the fact (comp. 1 Corinthians 11:28), as it also in the classics, in the sense of so then, embraces what has been previously said. See Schweighäuser, Lex. Herod. II. p. 167; Thucyd. iii. 96. 2; Xen. Anab. iii. 5. 6; Dem. 644. 18, 802. 20. Theodoret rightly says: τῶν γὰρ ἐθνῶν δεξαμένων τὸ κήρυγμα πιστεύσουσι κἀκεῖνοι, and that, according to Romans 11:11, under the impulse of powerful emulation. We may add that this great final result is brought into more important prominence, if we take ΚΑῚ ΟὝΤΩ Κ.Τ.Λ. independently, than if we make it form part of the statement dependent on ὍΤΙ (Lachmann, Tischendorf, Fritzsche, Ewald, Hofmann, and others).
========================
Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:26. καὶ οὕτως = and thus; not merely temporal, but = under the influence of the jealousy so excited—under the impression produced on the Jews by the sight of the Gentiles in their fulness peopling the kingdom—all Israel shall be saved. This is an independent sentence. For πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ see 1 Kings 12:1, 2 Chronicles 12:1. It means Israel as a whole. Paul is thinking of the historical people, as the contrast with Gentiles shows, but he is not thinking of them one by one. Israel a Christian nation, Israel as a nation a part of the Messianic kingdom, is the content of his thought. To make πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ refer to a “spiritual” Israel, or to the elect, is to miss the mark: it foretells a “conversion of the Jews so universal that the separation into an ‘elect remnant’ and ‘the rest who were hardened’ shall disappear” (Gifford). καθὼς γέγραπται Isaiah 59:20 f., but the last words ὅταν ἀφέλωμαι κ.τ.λ. from Isaiah 27:9. The prophet says ἕνεκεν Σίων Paul’s ἐκ Σιὼν is probably a lapse of memory, due to the impression of passages like Ps. 14:7, 53:7, Isaiah 2:3, though Philippi thinks it intentional—the object being to emphasise the title of the Jews, as against the Gentiles, to a share in the kingdom. It is then as if he said: Salvation is of the Jews, and surely therefore for them. It is impossible to say that ἥξει refers to the first or to the second advent: the distinction is not present to Paul’s mind as he writes; all he is concerned with is the fact that in prophetic scripture language is used which implies that Israel as a people is to inherit the Messianic salvation. ὁ ῥυόμενος, Hebrew גֹּאֵל is the Messiah. ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας. Cf. Bar 3:7, 1Ma 4:58.
====================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

26. And so all Israel shall be saved] Several interpretations of these words are in themselves legitimate. They may refer (A) to the natural Israel, the Jews; or (B) to the “Israel of God,” the true Church of Christ. Again, if the reference (A) is adopted, the prophecy may mean (a) that then all the elect of Israel shall at length be gathered in—the long process shall at length be complete; or (b) that every individual of the then generation of Jews shall be brought to Messiah’s grace; or (c) that “all” bears a less exact reference here, as so often in Scripture, and means “in general;”—“Israel in general, the Jews of that day as a great aggregate, on a scale unknown before, shall be saved.”
Obsessing on one of the many possible meanings of the Greek word "houtos" in Romans 11:26 is a great way to deflect attention from the word pas, whose meaning is clear and unambiguous. This scripture, using the Old Testament scriptures as its basis, stresses the fact that "pas israel" shall be saved. There has unquestionably never yet been a time when ALL Israel has been saved. But the scriptures, (both Old Testament and New Testament) clearly and explicitly promise that there will be a time when this will happen.
 
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BABerean2

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Obsessing on one of the many possible meanings of the Greek word "houtos" in Romans 11:26 is a great way to deflect attention from the word pas, whose meaning is clear and unambiguous. This scripture, using the Old Testament scriptures as its basis, stresses the fact that "pas israel" shall be saved. There has unquestionably never yet been a time when ALL Israel has been saved. But the scriptures, (both Old Testament and New Testament) clearly and explicitly promise that there will be a time when this will happen.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Did the Apostle Paul change his mind when describing the remnant between Romans 9:8, Romans 9:27, Romans 11:1-5, and Romans 11:26?
These verses define the Greek word "pas" in Romans 11:26.


The Dispensationalist ignores the majority of these other verses in order to change Romans 11:26 from a verse about the "manner" of salvation, into a verse about the "timing" of salvation.


The poster above used the word "when" in his commentary. In doing this he has used an adverb of timing, to replace an adverb of manner.


Words have meaning.
Is Romans 11:26 about the manner of salvation found in Romans 11:23, or is it about the timing of salvation, as the doctrine of the Dispensationalist requires?
The answer is found in other verses from the Book of Romans.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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There are MANY scriptures that CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY state that eventually all Israel will again inhabit their ancient homeland and will return to their God with their whole hearts. And some of these scriptures are stated in terms that cannot even rationally be wrested to mean "the church."

The HARD TRUTH is that there is not even one scripture that actually says that when God says "Israel" in the New Testament, He actually means "the church." This is 100% pure interpretation, and this INTERPRETATION is used as an excuse to deny what God has EXPLICITLY said in too many places to count.
 
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Douggg

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There are MANY scriptures that CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY state that eventually all Israel will again inhabit their ancient homeland and will return to their God with their whole hearts. And some of these scriptures are stated in terms that cannot even rationally be wrested to mean "the church."
One in particular is Ezekiel 39:7.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:7 refers back to Ezekiel 36:20. When the Jews were exiled into the nations, it was in effect profaning God's name because it made it look like the God of Israel was incapable of stopping it from happening.

Ezekiel 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

In the end times, in Ezekiel 38/39 the defeat of the huge force of Gog's army that comes against tiny Israel, will show that God does have the power to keep nations no matter what the size from overcoming Israel.

So God's name will no longer be profaned among the heathen, unlike in Ezekiel 36:20, as appearing to be incapable to the heathen to control events like when the Jews went into exile, that He is God the Holy One in Israel.

In Ezekiel 39:23, it goes on to say why the house of Israel went into exile among the heathen. It is actually Jesus Himself speaking in retrospect after returning to earth in Ezekiel 39:21.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
 
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BABerean2

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The HARD TRUTH is that there is not even one scripture that actually says that when God says "Israel" in the New Testament, He actually means "the church." This is 100% pure interpretation, and this INTERPRETATION is used as an excuse to deny what God has EXPLICITLY said in too many places to count.

Really?

How did Peter address the crowd on the Day of Pentecost in the passage below, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31-34?


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



How did Paul describe himself, even after his conversion, in the passage below?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews quote word-for-word the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, in Hebrews 8:6-13, and started the passage with the word "now"?
(The Uppercase text is from the Old Testament.)

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Why did James address his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3?
Who do you think James was taking to, if he was not talking to Israel?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Your "HARD TRUTH" is based on your words, instead of scripture.

Thank God for the Bible.

We are still waiting for you to share with us what you have written about the New Covenant in you books.
It has already been a long wait.

Since an understanding of the New Covenant destroys modern Dispensational Theology, I look forward to seeing what you have written about the New Covenant.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Really?

How did Peter address the crowd on the Day of Pentecost in the passage below, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31-34?


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



How did Paul describe himself, even after his conversion, in the passage below?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews quote word-for-word the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, in Hebrews 8:6-13, and started the passage with the word "now"?
(The Uppercase text is from the Old Testament.)

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Why did James address his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3?
Who do you think James was taking to, if he was not talking to Israel?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Your "HARD TRUTH" is based on your words, instead of scripture.

Thank God for the Bible.

We are still waiting for you to share with us what you have written about the New Covenant in you books.
It has already been a long wait.

Since an understanding of the New Covenant destroys modern Dispensational Theology, I look forward to seeing what you have written about the New Covenant.

.
Yes. Really.
Not even one of the scriptures you have ever quoted, either here or anywhere else, actually says what you clsim it means. But the scriptures I have quoted, not only actually, but explicitly, say what we are pointing out.
 
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Are you saying that Jesus is “the land of Israel,” with “the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys,” which Ezekiel 36 explicitly states will again be inhabited by “all the house of Israel, all of it”?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Some simply forget that Jesus is the "TRUE ISRAEL". Not a strip of land in the Middle East.

Isaiah 49!!!
:oldthumbsup:
Preach it brother!.........:amen:

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

.....is the title of this quoted article that I'd like to discuss in this thread. An excerpt and the link follows:
From article by Vladimir Moss (it's long, but I can't see anything that can be left out):

He was Himself both the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, and the Messiah, the Son of David. But He came as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, not the ferocious war-lord of the apocalypses.
And He came to restore Israel, not as a State ruling over all the nations by the power of the sword, but as the kernel of the Universal Church ruling by the power of the Spirit. His Kingdom was not of this world; it was the inner Kingdom of Grace. ~ CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEMThoughts?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived................

At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance. A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful.
The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : "When ye see (he had said to his disciples) the abomination of desolation, spoken or by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, [11] and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (or camps,) then let those who are in the midst of Jerusalem depart, and let not those who are in the country enter into her," for " then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Matt. xxiv. 15, 21 ; Luke xxi. 20, 1-11. These armies, we do not hesitate to affirm were those of the Romans, who now invested the city. From the time of the Babylonian captivity, idolatry had been held as an abomination by the Jews. This national aversion was manifested even against the images of their gods and emperors, which the Roman armies carried in their standards ; so that, in a time of peace, Pilate, and afterwards Vitellius, at the request of some eminent Jews, on this account avoided marching their forces throu' Judea. Of the desolating disposition which now governed the Roman army, the history of the Jewish war, and especially of the final demolition of the holy city, presents an awful and signal example. Jerusalem was not captured merely, but, with its celebrated temple, laid in ruins. Lest, however, the army of Titus should not be sufficiently designated by this expression, our LORD adds, "Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matt. xxiv. 28. The Jewish state, indeed, at this time, was fitly compared to a carcass. The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.
 
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mkgal1

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There are MANY scriptures that CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY state that eventually all Israel will again inhabit their ancient homeland and will return to their God with their whole hearts. And some of these scriptures are stated in terms that cannot even rationally be wrested to mean "the church."

The HARD TRUTH is that there is not even one scripture that actually says that when God says "Israel" in the New Testament, He actually means "the church." This is 100% pure interpretation, and this INTERPRETATION is used as an excuse to deny what God has EXPLICITLY said in too many places to count.


The Covenant and Land Promised to Abraham
Abraham was part of the line that would bring the promised Deliverer. God told him that through his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed — and his descendants would inherit the land of Canaan.

This covenant was unconditional. God Himself would fulfill it.

How Christ Fulfilled the Land Promised to Abraham | Reformed Health
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The Covenant and Land Promised to Abraham
Abraham was part of the line that would bring the promised Deliverer. God told him that through his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed — and his descendants would inherit the land of Canaan.
This covenant was unconditional. God Himself would fulfill it.
How Christ Fulfilled the Land Promised to Abraham | Reformed Health
Why I Left Behind Dispensationalism
The transition wasn’t easy.

My brain had been so steeped and filled with a wrong understanding (a dispensational understanding) of the Bible, that I couldn’t accept some of these NEW teachings (which, in fact, were not new at all). The truth is my heart railed against them.
Great post and link!
Another:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


Rapture Refuted! Israel's 1948 nationhood does not fulfill Bible prophecy!

Israel's land promise fulfilled in 1350 BC


1. Israel got all the land they were promised!
2. Israel's 1948 nationhood is not the beginning of the fulfillment of the land promise made to Abraham!
3. Abraham's land promise fulfilled by Joshua, Solomon!
4. Christ will never set foot on earth again!
5. Read more




Abrahamic Land Promise to Israel fulfilled 3000 years ago!
Israel becoming a nation in 1948 does not fulfill Bible prophecy.

Introduction:

1. We support the state of modern Israel as a stable productive democracy and a protectorate of biblical archeology from the Muslims who would hinder and destroy any evidence the Bible is accurate and that Jews are the historic occupiers of the land since 1400 BC.
However Israel becoming a nation in 1948 AD was a non-event as far as Bible prophecy is concerned.

The only hope of Israel is to accept Jesus Blood for their sins and be saved though faith, repentance, confession of Christ and water baptism.

2. Pre-tribulation Rapture and dispensationalists teach the false doctrine that God failed to fulfill the three promises he made to Abraham in fleshly Israel and the church (spiritual Israel).

3. All Premillennialists reject the plain Bible teaching that Israel possessed all the land God promises to Israel through Abraham.

4. Any church or preacher that claims that 1948 AD fulfilled Bible prophecy when modern Israel gained statehood, is a false teacher and ignorant of the bible. These false teachers are called "premillennialists, dispensationalists" and believe in the Rapture.

A. Plain Bible passages say that Israel got all the land promised Abraham:

1. "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the Lord gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. " (Joshua 21:43-45)

2. "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. "It shall come about that just as all the good words which the Lord your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. " (Joshua 23:14-15)

3. Josh 24:28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance.

4. 2 Sam 8:3 David defeated Hadadezer...as he went to restore his rule at the River [Euphrates].

5. 1 Kings 4:21 Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the [Euphrates] River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon

6. 2 Chr 9:26 And he was the ruler over all the kings from the Euphrates River even to the land of the Philistines, and as far as the border of Egypt.

7. Neh 9:8 And Thou didst find Abraham's heart faithful before Thee, and didst make a covenant with him to give him the land of the Canaanite, of the Hittite and the Amorite, of the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite-- to give it to his descendants. And Thou hast fulfilled Thy promise, for Thou art righteous.

8. Jer 11:5 "in order to confirm the oath which I swore to your forefathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day." Then I answered and said, "Amen, O LORD."

9. So it is simply apostate theology to say that God did not give Israel all the land promised to Abraham.

B. The 6 cities of Refuge prove the land promise was fulfilled:

1. For example, God said that if Israel got all the land promised, then they would have six cities of refuge.

2. "Therefore, I command you, saying, 'You shall set aside three cities for yourself.' "If the LORD your God enlarges your territory, just as He has sworn to your fathers, and gives you all the land which He promised to give your fathers— if you carefully observe all this commandment which I command you today, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in His ways always—then you shall add three more cities for yourself, besides these three. " (Deuteronomy 19:7-9)

3. Joshua 20:7-9 lists six cities of refuge - Kadesh, Shechem, Hebron, Bezer, Ramoth, and Golan.

4. Therefore God gave them all the land and premillennialism is utterly refuted!

C. Premillennialists are deluded false teachers:

1. Premillennialists falsely teach that Israel never got the land they were promised and that God had to bring Israel again into the land in 1948 AD, in order to fulfill his promise. This is entirely false!

2. Here are some typical statements by famous premillennialists:

a. "God unconditionally promised Abraham's descendants a literal world-wide kingdom over which they would rule through their Messiah who would reign upon King David's throne...Even the animals and reptiles will lose their ferocity and no longer be carnivorous," (The Late Great Planet Earth, Hal Lindsay, p 165)

b. "The nature of the blessings are earthly, territorial, and national, and have nothing to do with a spiritual church to which none of these blessings has been promised ...Christ is not now on the throne of David bringing blessings to Israel as the prophets predicted, but He is rather on His Father's throne waiting for the coming earthly kingdom and interceding for His own who form the church," (The Millennial Kingdom: A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology, John F. Walvoord, p 205, 1983 AD)

c. 3. "The foundation of the state of Israel in recent years has been a part of the predicted regathering of scattered Israel back to their ancient land...The present partial possession of the land is a token. The complete possession awaits the coming of Israel's Redeemer" (The Millennial Kingdom: A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology, John F. Walvoord, p 185, 1983 AD)

Conclusion:

1. Premillennialism is a theology of infidelity because it refuses to accept the plain teaching of the Bible that Israel possessed all the land God promised them through Abraham over 3400 years ago under Joshua and Solomon.
2. All three promises God made to Abraham were fulfilled over 2000 years ago.
3. Israel became a great nation in Egypt, possessed the land under Joshua and Solomon and through Jesus all the nations of the earth were blessed.
4. The idea that God must re-establish National Israel, rebuilt the Temple, restart animal sacrifices all to fulfill the land promise is a huge and obvious false doctrine. Few care enough to study it for themselves and escape the bondage of the false doctrine.
5. Go to detailed study of Abraham's promises


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We Speak truth in LOVE
"you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth" John 8:40
 
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When you deny that God will again bring the entire nation of Israel back to their ancient homeland and will bless them there, you are denying explicitly stated scripture. End of story.
 
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BABerean2

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When you deny that God will again bring the entire nation of Israel back to their ancient homeland and will bless them there, you are denying explicitly stated scripture. End of story.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.
 
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ebedmelech

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Some simply forget that Jesus is the "TRUE ISRAEL". Not a strip of land in the Middle East.

Isaiah 49!!!
That's Exactly what I'm saying. If you followed the history correctly, Ezekiel tells you in the first chapter that he was among the exiles.

Israel was restored to the land! That's what the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are all about...or how does Jesus walk in the land of Israel unless they were restored to the land? Furthermore Jesus saw the land Israel as one house, just as Jeremiah also prophesied.
 
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mkgal1

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Premillennialism is a theology of infidelity because it refuses to accept the plain teaching of the Bible that Israel possessed all the land God promised them through Abraham over 3400 years ago under Joshua and Solomon.
There's a ton of information in that one post, but I wanted to pull this one quote out, because this critical fact often gets drowned out in the discussion.

Joshua 21:45 - Not one of all the LORD’s good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.
 
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ebedmelech

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There's a ton of information in that one post, but I wanted to pull this one quote out, because this critical fact often gets drowned out in the discussion.

Joshua 21:45 - Not one of all the LORD’s good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.
Yeah...I don't know why folks want to dismiss that...it's strange!
 
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