The controversial Harrison Butker

RocksInMyHead

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He talked about that, I’m not Catholic so I’m not getting into a civil war within the Church.
That's fair - but I figured it would help to have some context on why this is an issue.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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If you say someone lives in Kansas City we'll it's a really big place that is on two states.

However, saying what they said is giving the public the neighborhood the player lives in.. that's different. That's pretty specific.

Knowing income and area it wouldn't take but a few minutes of a nuts time to find street and house number.
They did not give out his "neighborhood". They said what city he lives in - a city with over 100,000 residents spread over 65 square miles. Notably, I just searched "Harrison Butker house" and found much more information, including the purchase price and square footage, in an article from well over a year ago about the houses that all of the Chiefs starters live in. Generally speaking, the rough location (if not the specific address) of most celebrities' homes is public knowledge. It's one of the costs of being famous.
 
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rambot

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If you say someone lives in Kansas City well it's a really big place that is on two states.

However, saying what they said is giving the public the neighborhood the player lives in.. that's different. That's pretty specific.

Knowing income and area it wouldn't take but a few minutes of a nuts time to find street and house number.

Seriously, that was pretty specific.

I would definitely want to see punishment to the fullest extent possible since it was due to religious animosity by a state official against a private citizen.

Even if it's information previously published, it's something a person might hope stays buried when you're the topic of every news show in town and it's not good press.

Not something you expect the city to be like hey, if you're looking to make this real here ya go... Here's a good start..
Reactions to statements about social preferences are not religious animosity.
 
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Hazelelponi

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They did not give out his "neighborhood". They said what city he lives in - a city with over 100,000 residents spread over 65 square miles. Notably, I just searched "Harrison Butker house" and found much more information, including the purchase price and square footage, in an article from well over a year ago about the houses that all of the Chiefs starters live in. Generally speaking, the rough location (if not the specific address) of most celebrities' homes is public knowledge. It's one of the costs of being famous.

Well despite what you think of the size of that town I know it pretty well and upon hearing the name I figured I know where he lives, I'll look at your article to see if I was right...

I used to work over there when I lived over on the Missouri side.

It's still not something you expect from city employees...it's just not. It's an act based on religious animosity in an effort to get someone hurt.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Well despite what you think of the size of that town I know it pretty well and upon hearing the name I figured I know where he lives, I'll look at your article to see if I was right...

I used to work over there when I lived over on the Missouri side.
And I used to live just on the other side of the border in Kansas.
It's still not something you expect from city employees...it's just not.
I agree - as I said, it was inappropriate. But words have meanings, and using them incorrectly cheapens them, ultimately rendering them meaningless.
It's an act based on religious animosity in an effort to get someone hurt.
You seem so confident in your analysis - have you talked to this person?
 
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BPPLEE

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And I used to live just on the other side of the border in Kansas.

I agree - as I said, it was inappropriate. But words have meanings, and using them incorrectly cheapens them, ultimately rendering them meaningless.

You seem so confident in your analysis - have you talked to this person?
“But words have meanings, and using them incorrectly cheapens them, ultimately rendering them meaningless.”
I could start a thread with that comment. So true
 
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LizaMarie

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My thinking here is this.

Firstly, Butker was asked to give an honorary speech at a private Christian university, a university that espouses a faith quite similar or identical to Butker's himself.

It was on his own dime, in his own time. It was a speech given nearly a week prior to anyone in media even catching onto the fact he gave a speech anywhere at all about anything.

Whereas Kapernick did it at the start of the game literally on the time and the dime of the NFL.

As for me, I have no idea why anyone at all at the NFL would disavow what was said in a player's private time amongst their own faith community, but not disavow what is done on the field during a game when it expresses hatred for the very people that provided him the opportunities in life he was clearly blessed with.

And then, if the NFL is criticizing publicly what a player said in private amongst their own faith communities, why then aren't they publicly critical of the criminality found among their other players, since their private lives are open to public scrutiny by the NFL?

Oh that's right, it's just heterosexual white Christian men who are openly hated and harassed these days.

Maybe, just maybe, the NFL leadership could use some Christianity in their lives, and I don't know, just allow their players to have private lives without their input.

All my young life my dad worked for a Jewish man and his family. He never once felt the need to comment on the fact we had a different faith from him - and we were close.
Yes. He is a conservative Catholic speaking at a private traditional Catholic university. He was invited to speak there. He was not at a public or even Protestant school where some would take umbrage to parts of his speech. I agree with what Whoopi Goldberg said on the view (and I don't watch the View) but I've read and heard what she said.
Also, last time I checked we still have the First Amendment and religious freedom in this country, and again he was speaking to fellow Catholics at a private University. He did not say that women MUST stay home, he simply said being a wife and mother is an important vocation along with fatherhood being an important vocation. I did not agree with everything he said(re:birth control) as a confessional Lutheran, but again, he wasn't speaking at a Lutheran college he was speaking to members of his own church. I'm concerned about the doxxing and calls for him being fired, the other side is acting like those they claim to be against. Speaking strictly for myself I was not offended when Kapernick,etc took a knee, and I agree with the other poster- I wish national anthems weren't played in professional sports sometimes. But Kapernick was in a diverse public event, Butker was not.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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There's a saying "Stand for the flag, kneel for the Cross" it's a saying that's been around all my life.
Or since 2016. Whatever.

Kneeling is a sign of worship its why American Christians won't kneel for anything like the flag. It stems from American puritanism I'm sure since Brits and the like kneel for anything.

That’s utter baloney. Christians, American or otherwise, kneel regularly for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or reverence and also kneel in deference or respect to others besides God. The Puritans and British literally have *zero* to do with it.
 
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Fantine

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Where they hear that motherhood and being a wife is oppression and should be avoided at all costs.
Feminism wants women to be free to make choices. They want men to have choices, too.
They want parents to have enough time to be nurturers.

Being a wife and mother Can be opprrssive when the husband is overly controlling and authoritarian.

This is a kind of emotional abuse that has caused many women I know to get divorced.

While it often appears benign, it can cause lots of damage, and it sometimes is disguised in a outwardly "gentle" man like Butker.

He reminds me of the dad of one of my daughter's friends. The mom literally could not let her teen daughter go to our house to do homework without consulting her husband. The husband is very active and involved. You never see the wife anywhere without him.

It is not a healthy situation, gentle as he outwardly seems.
 
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Hazelelponi

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American or otherwise, kneel regularly for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or reverence

Gardening?

It's either gardening or scrubbing the kitchen floor by hand...

Otherwise no. They don't. I've never seen it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Being a wife and mother Can be opprrssive when the husband is overly controlling and authoritarian.

Not typical of any western marriage ..

I can share with you stories of what men are like when they really are authoritarian and controlling..

But I once posted a story once just to share with perhaps other women who struggle but was asked to remove the post as my story was a thing of nightmares and no one here needed any of those...

So I removed it from the forum, and never spoke of my life again, not about what I went through anyway, just surface stuff that people can handle.

But I promise you, authoritarian control freaks aren't the typical western marriage.

It's fine to warn people of potential pitfalls in finding a spouse, but prepare them for what they are most likely to find in your social circle, not what they are likely to never experience outside of someone else's life story.

Your scaring young women out of marriage when there are plenty of decent young men.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Gardening?

It's either gardening or scrubbing the kitchen floor by hand...

Otherwise no. They don't. I've never seen it.
To claim that Christians don’t kneel except in religious observance is a really wild thing to claim.
 
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JSRG

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Colin Kaepernick

Butker did and said nothing “wrong”, just a bit unpopular. He’s “allowed” to do that.​

If he catches heat from that…funny how that “free-speech” thing works!
Kapernick got criticism because of how he was dragging politics into football games. If he had made his opinions known "off the field" instead, then he probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the level of dislike he did. Various athletes make their political views known, but they normally do it outside of games.

Buttker wasn't trying to make some grand statement to the world in the context of a football game, he was giving a speech about Catholic values to the graduating class of a Catholic college. This is a rather different situation. They'd be more comparable if Buttker, when giving a post-game statement on national television, decided to talk about this sort of thing.
 
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Fantine

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To claim that Christians don’t kneel except in religious observance is a really wild thing to claim.

Not typical of any western marriage ..

I can share with you stories of what men are like when they really are authoritarian and controlling..

But I once posted a story once just to share with perhaps

It's fine to warn people of potential pitfalls in finding a spouse, but prepare them for what they are most likely to find in your social circle, not what they are likely to never experience outside of someone else's life story.

Your scaring young women out of marriage when there are plenty of decent young men.
No one expects they will meet someone who believes in Sharia Law, but there are plenty of overly controlling men in the suburbs. Emotional abuse can be subtle but still make life intolerable.
Not speaking from experience. My husband always let me make family decisions because I was the one who was most knowledgeable while he worked long hours. If we disagreed he usually let me have the final say. That wasn't ideal, either, but neither of us felt stifled.
During the low points of our marriage, his respect for my independence was what kept us together (over 50 years.)
 
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Vambram

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That’s utter baloney. Christians, American or otherwise, kneel regularly for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or reverence and also kneel in deference or respect to others besides God. The Puritans and British literally have *zero* to do with it.
Well, let's see. For normal and mundane reasons, I can kneel down if I have to get close to the ground in order to do some work. .... or perhaps pick up a pet. However, let's keep this in context as to acts of kneeling down for respect or in deference, or reverence. The only time that I have ever knelt down to a person out of respect was when I proposed marriage to my soon to be wife. That is it. Period, end of sentence. I have never knelt down to show respect for a object, or an idea unless I was kneeling down to pray to the Lord God.
 
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BPPLEE

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Well, let's see. For normal and mundane reasons, I can kneel down if I have to get close to the ground in order to do some work. .... or perhaps pick up a pet. However, let's keep this in context as to acts of kneeling down for respect or in deference, or reverence. The only time that I have ever knelt down to a person out of respect was when I proposed marriage to my soon to be wife. That is it. Period, end of sentence. I have never knelt down to show respect for an object, or an idea unless I was kneeling down to pray to the Lord God.
I wouldn’t even do it for a martial arts class
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Yes. He is a conservative Catholic speaking at a private traditional Catholic university. He was invited to speak there. He was not at a public or even Protestant school where some would take umbrage to parts of his speech. I agree with what Whoopi Goldberg said on the view (and I don't watch the View) but I've read and heard what she said.
The thing is, plenty of Catholics (including this one) DO take umbrage with what he said. His views are not aligned with mainline Catholicism. To quote myself from post #91:
But it should be said that the Catholic nuns who run that Catholic college weren't particularly pleased by it, and I know a fair few Catholic women who found it quite insulting as well. I, as a Catholic man, don't find it representative of my views on women either. In some ways, it's emblematic of a growing split in the Church. Butker is representative of the "Trad Cath" movement, which is a deeply conservative subset of American Catholicism that's taking root in certain sectors of the Church. It's possibly mildly heretical (some Trad Caths reject the current Pope and defy directives to stop using the Traditional Latin Mass - something that Butker references in his speech as well), and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if we see another schism in the next decade or two, with an American Catholic Church (Trad Caths heavily influenced by Evangelical Christianity) splitting off into its own denomination.
Also, last time I checked we still have the First Amendment and religious freedom in this country, and again he was speaking to fellow Catholics at a private University.
For the umpteenth time, no one has said that he shouldn't have been allowed to say that. The 1st Amendment protects you from retaliation by the government for your speech. It does NOT mean that other citizens cannot have a negative opinion of you or choose to take their business elsewhere if they don't like what you say. That he was speaking to a private, like-minded audience (and a commencement ceremony isn't really private) doesn't change anything - his views are his views. If, for example, someone found a video of Joe Biden speaking at a KKK meeting, would you say that we should ignore it because he has freedom of speech and was speaking to fellow racists at a private meeting?
He did not say that women MUST stay home, he simply said being a wife and mother is an important vocation along with fatherhood being an important vocation.
And talked down to women who choose otherwise. There are ways to express that opinion that aren't insulting to those who disagree with you - the implication that anyone telling you that a career is fulfilling is lying, the casual assumption that "most of you" are really looking forward to marriage and motherhood. Coming from a man, it comes off as quite patronizing. "A woman's place is in the kitchen" sort of stuff.
 
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Feminism wants women to be free to make choices. They want men to have choices, too.
They want parents to have enough time to be nurturers.

Being a wife and mother Can be opprrssive when the husband is overly controlling and authoritarian.

This is a kind of emotional abuse that has caused many women I know to get divorced.

While it often appears benign, it can cause lots of damage, and it sometimes is disguised in a outwardly "gentle" man like Butker.

He reminds me of the dad of one of my daughter's friends. The mom literally could not let her teen daughter go to our house to do homework without consulting her husband. The husband is very active and involved. You never see the wife anywhere without him.

It is not a healthy situation, gentle as he outwardly seems.
I keep having the thought to not experience the schadenfreude when I hear he’s divorcing…in two years?
 
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